The Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 60

[Iceman]

I am probably waiting to listen to the FF score when I see the movie. For me, a score isn't just about the music notes themselves. It's that and the context of its use in the movie itself that gives it meaning to me. In isolation, I love the MOS score, but my attachment isn't high to it cause there isn't a scene or moment that I reflect on when I hear it. So I am sure it's great music, but I mostly care about how it works within the movie itself

Same for me. A great score linked to a not-great film doesn’t mean much to me. I assess film scores differently to if they had just been compositions with no film in mind, as their purpose is to interlink with a film and make it better. So no buy for me if the music is great and the film is not.

 

[Iceman]

I had no idea Alden Ehrenreich was in Ironheart. Supposedly he’s playing someone named Joe McGillicuddy. Sounds like it’s probably an alias and they’re keeping his real role under wraps. Or is that a Marvel character I’m unaware of?

I’m one of the few who liked Alden Ehrenreich in Solo. I had no idea he was cast in Ironheart. Good to know, another reason to watch.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I’m one of the few who liked Alden Ehrenreich in Solo. I had no idea he was cast in Ironheart. Good to know, another reason to watch.

Alden wasn't the issue for me. I just hated the movie he was in.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Same for me. A great score linked to a not-great film doesn’t mean much to me. I assess film scores differently to if they had just been compositions with no film in mind, as their purpose is to interlink with a film and make it better. So no buy for me if the music is great and the film is not.

Exactly. Like we are talking MCU generic scores, and I would agree many are not super memorable. So maybe as written music the MoS score is better than say the score for Thor, but I would rank the Thor score higher for me cause there are moments in that movie I remember when I hear that music. Best example being when Thor fails to lift Mjolnir when he breaks into the SHIELD site. That's a moment for me. The MoS score doesn't have that for me.

 

[Drizzle]

Some D23 Marvel thoughts from last night's presentation.

I watched a leaked trailer for Born Again.

It's the only MCU project next year besides Fantastic Four that I have a significant amount of hype for and it bums me out yet again that we never got a Blu release for DD S3.

I also saw leaked trailers for Brave New World which I'm kinda meh about and Ironheart which looks interesting and maybe a little more cinematic than what we're used to from the Marvel shows.

I thought the Agatha trailer was alright but I'm really not interested in anything about it outside of Kathryn Hahn and Aubrey Plaza (probably not alone in that boat either) but it could be fun. Maybe Mephisto will actually show up this time.

 

[Bayne]

Those are all…fine and serviceable, but the only one that actually became iconic was the Avengers theme, and that feels more out of repetition in constantly wildly successful movies than from being an actual great theme. There have been very few truly great superhero scores in this “golden age of CBM’s” imo. Absolutely nothing has come close to Williams, and I’d say the most memorable stuff from the era came from Zimmer on the DC side. The MCU has been the king of “serviceable but unmemorable” scores.

I disagree, partially at least. You're right about the Avengers theme, I think, and plenty of the others have been good but not super-memorable or just not quite well-developed enough. But I find the music of Dr. Strange, Guardians of the Galaxy, Winter Solider, Civil War, Thor: Ragnarok and Ant-man just as good and memorable as the music of Black Panther and I don't think any of them are really far off at all from Williams' Superman or Elfman's Batman. I don't think those Williams/Elfman themes are at all on some rareified level of quality that is almost never reached. They're classic and catchy and fun, but the biggest reason they stayed king of the superhero theme music world for decades is because almost nobody was doing any even particularly good work in the superhero theme music world for decades.

Personally, I think the Ant-man theme is actually every bit as musically memorable and potentially iconic as those older themes, with the only major problem with it being that Ant-man just isn't as iconic as a character and his movies just aren't as broadly liked. And I would also add Werewolf by Night, WandaVision, Loki and Shang-Chi as also having genuinely beautiful music in the MCU.

I do agree that a lot of the MCU scores have been serviceable but unmemorable, especially post-Endgame. Unfortunately it's hard pressing to find many modern iconic movie themes on par with the likes of Williams classics like Superman these days, not just within the superhero genre but movies in general. Zimmer is a legend in his own right and Giacchino and Goransson (to name a few) are definitely carrying the torch. For me, not everything needs to be on par with Williams's Superman theme or Elfman and Zimmer's Batman themes but some of the scores are still plenty great in their own right.

Also, is it bad that when you brought up "Zimmer on the DC side", for a good five seconds I thought you were talking about the Man of Steel score?

The Man of Steel score is also fantastic, imo, and absolutely on the same level as Williams and Elfman's classic scores.

I was never a fan of the Zimmer superhero sound he imposed on the industry. If you don’t like it, tough.

He abandoned a perfectly good motif he wrote for BB and didn’t use it in the next two movies. And TDKR basically cut and pasted sections of music from the previous two movies— it was just lazy. The quality of the movies elevated the music instead of complementing it.

Give me a more traditional superhero orchestral score by Silvestri or Williams over most of Zimmer’s oeuvre any day of the week. Except WW84.

I don't really like the style of music he put together for the Batman trilogy. It's not terrible, it has it's moments and it mostly works within the film, but for me truly iconic film music has to work within the film and also work without the film supporting it and his Batman stuff absolutely doesn't work without the film, imo. But the MoS themes absolutely do and, honestly, they arguably paint a better picture of the Superman the movie was trying to be about than the movie itself actually does. You can actually hear the reluctance of the character progressing into the triumph of becoming Superman.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I’m one of the few who liked Alden Ehrenreich in Solo. I had no idea he was cast in Ironheart. Good to know, another reason to watch.

Alden wasn't the issue for me. I just hated the movie he was in.

Solo was such a mixed bag for me. I thought Alden did well, I really liked Emelia Clarke, Donald Glover and Phoebe Waller-Bridge were cool, and I even liked the Maul tease at the end. The Kessel run was cool too.

But other stuff… from how certain scenes were so dark and foggy that you couldn’t make out what the hell was going on, to the stupid “origin” elements no one cared to know like how Solo got his name were just so poorly done. I can’t tell if Ron Howard did what he could to salvage a bad movie or if he made it much, much worse. I’m inclined to believe the latter though because even though Ron Howard is a pretty good director overall, I’m never forgiving him for The Da Vinci Code or for his role in unleashing JD Vance upon the world.

 

[Venom 1988]

I had no idea Alden Ehrenreich was in Ironheart. Supposedly he’s playing someone named Joe McGillicuddy. Sounds like it’s probably an alias and they’re keeping his real role under wraps. Or is that a Marvel character I’m unaware of?

There were rumors from over a year ago that he could be playing Ezekiel Stane but not sure how reputable they were.

 

[Spider-Fan]

There were rumors from over a year ago that he could be playing Ezekiel Stane but not sure how reputable they were.

Yeah, but Armor Wars is a fake movie so def fake

 

[Drizzle]

I actually love the MoS score. It's the one thing I unapologetically love from that movie. I was mainly referring to the TDK trilogy, although my personal favorite superhero score of the decade was actually his score for WW1984. That score gives me actual chills.

The Man of Steel score is also fantastic, imo, and absolutely on the same level as Williams and Elfman's classic scores.

Just want to let the record show that Man of Steel is indeed a very good score, I just put Zimmer and James Newton Howard's TDKT scores on a higher level.

 

[Erzengel]

I'd agree that Avengers theme is more on repetition but it's not like that playing some of these other themes makes regular people stop in their tracks and start vibing with the score. Even iconic themes like Superman, playing a lot of music trivia, I've seen people still confuse it with Star Wars.

 

[kguillou]

Born Again looks lit. I’m not expecting it to be on the level of the OG series but all it needs to be is dark, engaging and visceral and deliver some badass action sequences. This could be the best thing that comes out next year.

 

[MbJ]

Born Again: I’m onboard. I liked the trailer a lot.

Also that FF theme is killer.

 

[MbJ]

 

[Venom 1988]

I always thought he looked off in that show but couldn't remember why. But I think it's all the blue lol.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I disagree, partially at least. You're right about the Avengers theme, I think, and plenty of the others have been good but not super-memorable or just not quite well-developed enough. But I find the music of Dr. Strange, Guardians of the Galaxy, Winter Solider, Civil War, Thor: Ragnarok and Ant-man just as good and memorable as the music of Black Panther and I don't think any of them are really far off at all from Williams' Superman or Elfman's Batman. I don't think those Williams/Elfman themes are at all on some rareified level of quality that is almost never reached. They're classic and catchy and fun, but the biggest reason they stayed king of the superhero theme music world for decades is because almost nobody was doing any even particularly good work in the superhero theme music world for decades.

Personally, I think the Ant-man theme is actually every bit as musically memorable and potentially iconic as those older themes, with the only major problem with it being that Ant-man just isn't as iconic as a character and his movies just aren't as broadly liked. And I would also add Werewolf by Night, WandaVision, Loki and Shang-Chi as also having genuinely beautiful music in the MCU.

Batman yes. Superman? Superman lives outside of the character and film itself. As with all of Williams major hits, it's staying power is down to it's simplistic, but overwhelming nature. For anyone else, it would be their most important contribution to cinema. For Williams, it might not crack the top 10.

I don't really like the style of music he put together for the Batman trilogy. It's not terrible, it has it's moments and it mostly works within the film, but for me truly iconic film music has to work within the film and also work without the film supporting it and his Batman stuff absolutely doesn't work without the film, imo. But the MoS themes absolutely do and, honestly, they arguably paint a better picture of the Superman the movie was trying to be about than the movie itself actually does. You can actually hear the reluctance of the character progressing into the triumph of becoming Superman.

Films don't support the score. The score supports the film. What makes Zimmer's Batman work so good is how much it elevates and blends with already tremendous work, while being utterly distinct.

 

[mclay18]

But the MoS themes absolutely do and, honestly, they arguably paint a better picture of the Superman the movie was trying to be about than the movie itself actually does. You can actually hear the reluctance of the character progressing into the triumph of becoming Superman.

Zimmer wrote a promising motif for Superman (which they used in the final trailer too) but he never developed it in BvS.

I would LOVE to hear a Zimmer MOS sequel score in the style of WW84… a hopeful and fun score. Full orchestra with woodwinds and harp, not just strings, timpani and brass. So much potential.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Yay, more characters that they think are more important than Karen and Foggy.

Atleast they’re on the show. Unlike the best character from the Netflix MCU…

 

[Deck Rickard]

Atleast they’re on the show. Unlike the best character from the Netflix MCU…

View attachment 99785

Yeah but at least we got Jennifer Garner back! GOAT

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Atleast they’re on the show. Unlike the best character from the Netflix MCU…

View attachment 99785

Matt's on the show.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Matt's on the show.

Well played sir.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah but at least we got Jennifer Garner back! GOAT

Is she though? Give me the Netflix one

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Yeah give me Elodie Elektra back and a Daughters of the Dragon spinoff with Missick/Henwick and I’d be a happy camper as far as the street level MCU goes.

 

[Lily Adler]

You mean the girl who murdered a bunch of people in Wakanda Forever.

 

[Pennywise]