The Superhero Cinematic Civil War Thread* - Part 61

[MbJ]

My list is pretty much the same as everyone else’s: X-Men 97, Born Agatha, Wandavision, Agatha, Loki and now Friendly Neighborhood Spidey.

I really liked She-Hulk as well but am willing to admit it was also a mess. Same for Ms. Marvel; the show is a mess but Iman is extremely charming as Kamala.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Same, but swapping out She-Hulk and Agatha with Loki S1 and Hawkeye for me.

I'm still cautious about putting Born Again up there since we're only halfway through but so far so good.

You're right Drizzy, definitely gotta add Hawkeye in there too.

That was the Christmas gift I didn't know we needed.

Just getting caught up on some recent convos...

A happy belated birthday to the always delightful @Shinobi Shaw! I hope you had a wonderful day, my friend

You're too sweet my friend. Thank youuuuu

Born Again has the problem of knowing they had to reshoot or retool most of the show and you can tell as you're watching it. The Karen/Foggy absence is apparent and you can feel it, but also some other things that made DD on Netflix that show we all love. One major thing with the Netflix show is you understand the overall plot of the show but with the Disney+ show, it's got this janky start and stop to the various plots. I just don't see it being cohesive when we get to the end. And I don't think the Fisk/Vanessa part of the show is working as well as they think.

Hear me out, even with the reshoots and the cherrypicking, it still feels seamless to me.

True, it's not like the Netflix DD that we all know and love, but it's becoming it's own superhero procedural and it still possesses the aspects that make DD so good. You still have the intensity and chemistry with Cox and his supporting cast with D'Onofrio and Bernthal, it's showing you how Matt operates as a legit lawyer and him and Fisk both trying to do things the proper way before they delve into their darker halves, you have New York City as a prime character and setting in this and it's finding its own groove.

I wish Fisk/Vanessa were still a devious supercouple, but this show is giving them conflict, and conflict is always good.

Give it some more time bruv.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I am not watching Born Again looking to pick apart the seems. I think the show flows very naturally and logically. I think Episode 1 was the messiest one, especially in regards to CGI and visuals, but the other 3 have been mostly seamless outside of obvious ADR and such here and there. But the scenes don't feel unnatural like say....Madame Web where the ADR is actively distracting. I can easily get absorbed into the Born Again episodes and their stories

 

[Iceman]

As far as Disney+ MCU shows go, I would say the highlights have been Loki, DD: Born Again, Wandavision, Agatha, Werewolf By Night and She-Hulk.

Falcon & Winter Soldier and Ms. Marvel were okay.

Moon Knight had its moments but was more bad than good. I like Oscar in the role though.

Hawkeye, What If and Secret Invasion all get a… D+. But that might be too generous.

Haven’t seen X-Men ‘97 aside from one episode but it felt kinda cringe. I know people love it but I just wasn’t into it. Also haven’t seen Echo yet (not for any particular reason; I just keep forgetting about it).

I massively enjoyed the character Ms Marvel and her supporting characters. It was a great intro, but not an overall great show with the terrible villains being shoehorned in and taking away some of the magic.

Moon Knight also suffered with trying to cram way too much into a few episodes.

The shows aren’t top quality but hopefully those characters/actors get a good showing next time (especially after The Marvels did so badly ).

 

[Kane52630]

Hear me out, even with the reshoots and the cherrypicking, it still feels seamless to me.

True, it's not like the Netflix DD that we all know and love, but it's becoming it's own superhero procedural and it still possesses the aspects that make DD so good. You still have the intensity and chemistry with Cox and his supporting cast with D'Onofrio and Bernthal, it's showing you how Matt operates as a legit lawyer and him and Fisk both trying to do things the proper way before they delve into their darker halves, you have New York City as a prime character and setting in this and it's finding its own groove.

I wish Fisk/Vanessa were still a devious supercouple, but this show is giving them conflict, and conflict is always good.

Give it some more time bruv.

My problem isn't Matt and Fisk trying to be legit, I love that they aren't quick to put them into fighting mode, it's how they get there and the writing just feels disjointed to me and the time jump doesn't help. It's almost the same problem DD S2 had but after rewatching that, they do a better job compartmentalizing The Hand stuff with the Punisher scenes. But that's just me and from the looks of it, the next three episodes are what everybody is gonna be excited for. I just think they could have handled this first half of the season better but like I said, you can feel the show being retooled as you're watching it and you don't need to be looking hard for it to see it.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

My problem isn't Matt and Fisk trying to be legit, I love that they aren't quick to put them into fighting mode, it's how they get there and the writing just feels disjointed to me and the time jump doesn't help. It's almost the same problem DD S2 had but after rewatching that, they do a better job compartmentalizing The Hand stuff with the Punisher scenes. But that's just me and from the looks of it, the next three episodes are what everybody is gonna be excited for. I just think they could have handled this first half of the season better but like I said, you can feel the show being retooled as you're watching it and you don't need to be looking hard for it to see it.

I hear you.

The only real gripe I have with the season so far, is that they have introduced interesting new characters but are only glossing over them. I'd like to see more about Dr Heather, Kirsten, BB and Fisk's campaign manager lady (who's always in L&O and SVU doing something) and what makes them tick.

But I guess that's what happens when you slash the episodes from 18 to 9.

 

[Venom 1988]

I hear you.

The only real gripe I have with the season so far, is that they have introduced interesting new characters but are only glossing over them. I'd like to see more about Dr Heather, Kirsten, BB and Fisk's campaign manager lady (who's always in L&O and SVU doing something) and what makes them tick.

But I guess that's what happens when you slash the episodes from 18 to 9.

Regarding BB, she was casted after the revamp so I don't her character existed in the original iteration of the show.

 

[Lily Adler]

I hear you.

The only real gripe I have with the season so far, is that they have introduced interesting new characters but are only glossing over them. I'd like to see more about Dr Heather, Kirsten, BB and Fisk's campaign manager lady (who's always in L&O and SVU doing something) and what makes them tick.

But I guess that's what happens when you slash the episodes from 18 to 9.

Campaign lady was also on Gotham.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I hear you.

The only real gripe I have with the season so far, is that they have introduced interesting new characters but are only glossing over them. I'd like to see more about Dr Heather, Kirsten, BB and Fisk's campaign manager lady (who's always in L&O and SVU doing something) and what makes them tick.

But I guess that's what happens when you slash the episodes from 18 to 9.

Yeah, I feel like there are a few too many side characters and it’s hard to get invested in any of them. Muse just seems kinda thrown in so far and doesn’t really connect to any of the plots or subplots aside from depicting things via graffiti. We got a little more from Fisk’s inner circle this week but tbh they all just make me miss Wesley. Can we have an alternate universe version of him show up already? lol

 

[kguillou]

The main thing im struggling with are the therapy scenes with Fisk and Vanessa. I find myself just wanting to get thru those scenes and not because its talky talky and i want smashy smashy, i just…dont need to see extended therapy scenes. I’m ALL for giving Fisk and Vanessa some conflict in their relationship but there was a better, more compelling way to do it.

The very notion of Fisk trying to go legit while his wife is getting hungry with power in the underworld behind his back and threatening his “legitimacy” is RICH with compelling story potential.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So far there are only three real gifts that Disney+ gave to the MCU: WandaVision, '97 and Born Again.

She-Hulk and Agatha are in my heart too, but those aforementioned are the trinity.

The holy trinity for Disney+:

1. Werewolf by Night
2. She-Hulk
3. Loki s1

I also think 97 is good and that WandaVision worked until it really, really didn't.

Born Again is not the worst show. But it's the one that bothers me the most. It has taken everything that made the original show special, and watered it down. Feels like the Soap Opera version of the original show. The dialogue really sticks out to me, because of how much the old show was built around the rhythm of it. Matt, Karen, Foggy, Fisk, Frank, Stick, Dex, etc. It was a battle of idealogues, with so many fun, unique feeling characters. The new show is acting like none of that happened, outside of setup. Fisk "argument" is embarrassing in a world that already went through both Civil War and the snap and I can't believe they built the first arc of the show around it.

And I'm all for change. Change can be great. I think Matt as written on She-Hulk was pretty terrific, even with a different overall tone. It leaned into his charm and wordplay. New show doesn't feel like the Matt from the Netflix show. Doesn't feel like a man who lost his mentors or the love of his life. The man shaped by what he believed was the loss of his parents.

And just to be clear, I do not hold the old show as some sort of pillar of perfection, outside of season 3. Which is easily the best thing in the "MCU" imo. But the general quality of the first two seasons, especially when it came to the core characters, was so much higher then this.

The inciting incident of this show goes so much against s3 that it feels pretty clear, no one involved understood the original show.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The main thing im struggling with are the therapy scenes with Fisk and Vanessa. I find myself just wanting to get thru those scenes and not because its talky talky and i want smashy smashy, i just…dont need to see extended therapy scenes. I’m ALL for giving Fisk and Vanessa some conflict in their relationship but there was a better, more compelling way to do it.

The very notion of Fisk trying to go legit while his wife is getting hungry with power in the underworld behind his back and threatening his “legitimacy” is RICH with compelling story potential.

I find those scenes boring as well (along with 95% of the show) because they don't feel like the same characters. I am confused by why those scenes or the general tension between the two exist. It get it, distance happened. It did before. It did not lead to this.

 

[Still Wynning]

So far there are only three real gifts that Disney+ gave to the MCU: WandaVision, '97 and Born Again.

She-Hulk and Agatha are in my heart too, but those aforementioned are the trinity.

And, worth noting, two of the top three that you mentioned are revivals of other shows.

More reason for them to revive Spider-Man ‘98. That would do gangbusters.

True, it's not like the Netflix DD that we all know and love, but it's becoming it's own superhero procedural and it still possesses the aspects that make DD so good. You still have the intensity and chemistry with Cox and his supporting cast with D'Onofrio and Bernthal, it's showing you how Matt operates as a legit lawyer and him and Fisk both trying to do things the proper way before they delve into their darker halves, you have New York City as a prime character and setting in this and it's finding its own groove.

One aspect the show does way better than the Netflix show is all the lawyering stuff.

Watching stuff like legal eagle and reading online what people who worked in the system thought of the Netflix show courtroom scenes, as good and dramatic as they were, they got a lot of stuff and terminology wrong. From what research I did, a lot of the show pre-revamp that was brought over into this current incarnation was written by people who had actually worked in the legal system, and it really shows. And, judging by our resident lawyer Babilygunn’s expertise and opinion on the show, they really get it right, save a detail here and there they probably altered for runtime and dramatic effect.

But I guess that's what happens when you slash the episodes from 18 to 9.

Actually, it was always meant to be 18 episodes split into two-part, 9 episode chunks released months apart from each other. Episodes two through seven are made up of most of what they shot for episodes one through 6 of the original show but reconfigured with new and reshot scenes along with a new pilot at the beginning beginning of the season and two episodes at the end to better connect it with the original Netflix show.

Whatever they are filming now is all under the new showrunners and completely new.

 

[Lily Adler]

I'm sure future Americans will become so dumb that they'll think Kraven is a masterpiece.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, I feel like there are a few too many side characters and it’s hard to get invested in any of them. Muse just seems kinda thrown in so far and doesn’t really connect to any of the plots or subplots aside from depicting things via graffiti. We got a little more from Fisk’s inner circle this week but tbh they all just make me miss Wesley. Can we have an alternate universe version of him show up already? lol

Wesley was on another level. It made Fisk look that much better when he had people like that working for him.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

The holy trinity for Disney+:

1. Werewolf by Night
2. She-Hulk
3. Loki s1

I also think 97 is good and that WandaVision worked until it really, really didn't.

Born Again is not the worst show. But it's the one that bothers me the most. It has taken everything that made the original show special, and watered it down. Feels like the Soap Opera version of the original show. The dialogue really sticks out to me, because of how much the old show was built around the rhythm of it. Matt, Karen, Foggy, Fisk, Frank, Stick, Dex, etc. It was a battle of idealogues, with so many fun, unique feeling characters. The new show is acting like none of that happened, outside of setup. Fisk "argument" is embarrassing in a world that already went through both Civil War and the snap and I can't believe they built the first arc of the show around it.

And I'm all for change. Change can be great. I think Matt as written on She-Hulk was pretty terrific, even with a different overall tone. It leaned into his charm and wordplay. New show doesn't feel like the Matt from the Netflix show. Doesn't feel like a man who lost his mentors or the love of his life. The man shaped by what he believed was the loss of his parents.

And just to be clear, I do not hold the old show as some sort of pillar of perfection, outside of season 3. Which is easily the best thing in the "MCU" imo. But the general quality of the first two seasons, especially when it came to the core characters, was so much higher then this.

The inciting incident of this show goes so much against s3 that it feels pretty clear, no one involved understood the original show.

I hear you Darth.

I do miss the street level feel and look of the Netflix version. Born Again has that Disney MCU gloss over it now, but again I think it is succeeding at making it its own thing. You still have the battle of ideologues, there's still unique characters here, it's just there's new characters that people may or may not jive with.

Granted they didn't know the outcome of the election when they were writing this, but it's timely showing Fisk as Mayor of New York. It wasn't necessarily the Snap, but idiots people in this country re-elected a convicted felon after he unleashed a global pandemic on us that wiped too many people out. Makes the MCU citizens voting for another felon believable, after all they went through unfortunately.

And why you hating on WandaVision for, that was a love story.

 

[Drizzle]

The final battle in WandaVision is sloppy but her goodbye to the kids and Vision to close out the finale made up for it IMO.

I also think that Werewolf By Night is the best MCU Disney+ project but I don't count it as a show. It exists in this space between the shows and the old One-Shots that they used to include on the Blu-rays in the first two Phases.

 

[Lily Adler]

The final battle in WandaVision is sloppy but her goodbye to the kids and Vision to close out the finale made up for it IMO.

I also think that Werewolf By Night is the best MCU Disney+ project but I don't count it as a show. It exists in this space between the shows and the old One-Shots that they used to include on the Blu-rays in the first two Phases.

They copied the Hulk ending but you can actually see what was happening.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I hear you Darth.

I do miss the street level feel and look of the Netflix version. Born Again has that Disney MCU gloss over it now, but again I think it is succeeding at making it its own thing. You still have the battle of ideologues, there's still unique characters here, it's just there's new characters that people may or may not jive with.

Granted they didn't know the outcome of the election when they were writing this, but it's timely showing Fisk as Mayor of New York. It wasn't necessarily the Snap, but idiots people in this country re-elected a convicted felon after he unleashed a global pandemic on us that wiped too many people out. Makes the MCU citizens voting for another felon believable, after all they went through unfortunately.

And why you hating on WandaVision for, that was a love story.

Seriously. I will never understand how Trump gets a pass for KILLING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS. Full ****ing stop.

 

[Drizzle]

They copied the Hulk ending but you can actually see what was happening.

And without the unscripted Nick Nolte rant where they just let the cameras roll without telling him.

 

[flickchick85]

Werewolf By Night is the only great thing Marvel has done on Disney+ imo.

WandaVision, She-Hulk and the Guardians special were solid, though.

 

[Drizzle]

Werewolf By Night is the only great thing Marvel has done on Disney+ imo.

WandaVision, She-Hulk and the Guardians special were solid, though.

I love the Guardians Holiday Special too. There really need to be more of those Special Presentations after the upcoming Punisher one.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

I'm crossing my fingers for Vision Quest. Really am.

I miss seeing Paul Bettany.

 

[Venom 1988]

For anyone who hasn't watched it, go watch Director by Night on Disney+. For behind the scenes look at a project, it's way better than any of the Assembled specials that they've done. It gives you a lot of insight about Michael Giacchino and follows the production of Werewolf by Night from start to finish.

 

[Drizzle]

I miss seeing Paul Bettany.

That was what I found myself thinking after Endgame. I felt bad for Scarlett Johansson not getting to participate in the final battle but at least she was actually in the movie.