The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - Part 134

[Reek]

Bruce watches the city he created peace for (for 8 years) being destroyed and ****... I think thats reason enough for him to want to live so he can do somethng about it.

But a developed relationship with Selina would have sufficed and added GREATLY.

 

[Deserana]

Here's a couple things that are pretty basic storytelling, for me at least:

-A clear theme.
-The hero overcoming his biggest obstacle as a direct statement on that theme.
-If you hand a third of your movie over to a character, that character should have a fully realized arc. And it should work alongside the theme in some way.

That's just me. It's cool if you don't need that. I'm sure it greatly increased your capacity to enjoy this particular movie.

I still feel the overall theme of the film is pain. However rather than this theme being brought out through the villain the theme is brought through Bruce and just generally whats happened to the characters. The central theme, I believe is actually confronted by Bruce when he climbs from the pit. The pain of losing Rachel, the pain of seeing Gotham living this lie then obviously the physical pain brought on by Bane. When he climbs the pit thats him confronting his pain. It could be mistaken for fear but even Bruce says "I'm not afraid. I'm angry" he leaves the pit to confront his physical Bane (Bane) as he knows if he beats Bane then a new life and escape from his guilt/emotional pain is just around the corner. That's why I think there is more to the "Where's the triggawhwhrhrhrhr!?!?!?!?!?" scene than just wanting to deactivate the bomb. Once he does that he can finally start again and move on. That's my interpretation of connecting Bane and pain anyway.

And I really don't think Blake needed a complete arc as this is clearly his beginning. For every other character this is the end for them but Blake's stoy is just beginning so to me there is no need for his arc to be complete merely being set up is good enough for me. I just wanted to learn about him and a background not go on an emotional journey with him as that would detract me from Bruce. His journey is meant to take place after this film.

 

[Atom Ant]

Okay, he aimed at the mask in their second fight. That's fine but I still wish the film made it clear that Batman was taking a tactical approach rather than a physical approach when fighting Bane.

Again, ImAlwaysAngry and I are searching for an answer to the following question:

"What is the theme of the conflict between Batman and Bane, and how does Bruce's character grow through the resolution of this conflict?"

I think that Bruce's character grew;from being a self doubting recluse, who's efforts to become a symbol of hope to the city was a failure. To becoming the symbol of hope and inspiration he wanted to be.

 

[Sensei]

In my opinion, the conflict is to prove your superiority to the other, since they are seen as equals/rivals.

It makes sense because everyone from Falcone to Alfred have been telling Bruce that he should never try to prove something to himself.

Bane came into Gotham, only to prove to himself that he was Batman's better. Batman rose from the lazarus pit to defeat Bane, to prove to Bane that he was his better - but his reasoning isn't for self-satisfaction or arrogance - it is because if he does NOT prove himself better, Gotham is ashes.

Batman MUST succeed. He HAS to prove himself, otherwise fear, chaos and pain will consume him until he becomes an old man filled with regret waiting to die alone.

Again, this is a good interpretation but does the film clearly state this?

IMO, Bane does not want to prove he is superior to Batman. He simply wants to show that Bruce is failure and give him false hope.

IMO, Bruce is not trying to prove his superiority to Bane but attempting to overcome his personal demons or limitations.

Again, this plays to my point of the theme in this movie lacking clarity. The convoluted nature of its theme results in people having different interpretations.

 

[Reek]

How does bane Eat?

clearly youve never seen the south park where they eat by putting food up their asses.

 

[Cannikin]

How does bane Eat?

An emergency induction port.

 

[B.A. Baracus]

clearly youve never seen the south park where they eat by putting food up their asses.

Lol, I've clearly not.

I'll not watch the film in the same way again. No wonder darth vader was so pissed all the time.

 

[DKDetective]

For those asking about the thematics of Batman and Bane, and what Bruce learned in the film, this is what I understood: Bruce had to want to live to win.

Alfred accuses Bruce of going out there looking to fail (that is to say, to die), and Bruce is adamant in the pit that he's not afraid of death. Chiefly, this is because it doesn't matter to him if he lives or not, and that's the problem. The doctor tells him he has to reclaim the fear he drove out of himself in Batman Begins, the fear of death--and you only fear death if you've got something to live for.

Bane, on the other hand? He was literally fighting to die. Everything he did was to set off the bomb, to kill himself. Talia too. She was eaten alive by her anger; her plan was to die for her anger, for vengeance.

All three of them are wounded people who had attached themselves to very uncompromising ideas and couldn't move on. They were going to follows their ideals directly into the grave. The one who won was the one who decided he wanted to move on and wanted to live.

Addendum: it's not a coincidence that Bruce ends up running away with the character whose entire motivation in the film is, in fact, to move on.

Precisely, that's exactly what I meant, but I never finished the thought when writing my post.

 

[B.A. Baracus]

An emergency induction port.

Whats one of those?

 

[Reek]

How does bane Eat?

clearly youve never seen the south park where they eat by putting food up their asses.

An emergency induction port.

Lol, I've clearly not.

I'll not watch the film in the same way again. No wonder darth vader was so pissed all the time.

Hey, Bane is a mix between Vader and Teh Shreddah!

 

[Sensei]

I still feel the overall theme of the film is pain. However rather than this theme being brought out through the villain the theme is brought through Bruce and just generally whats happened to the characters. The central theme, I believe is actually confronted by Bruce when he climbs from the pit. The pain of losing Rachel, the pain of seeing Gotham living this lie then obviously the physical pain brought on by Bane. When he climbs the pit thats him confronting his pain. It could be mistaken for fear but even Bruce says "I'm not afraid. I'm angry" he leaves the pit to confront his physical Bane (Bane) as he knows if he beats Bane then a new life and escape from his guilt/emotional pain is just around the corner. That's why I think there is more to the "Where's the triggawhwhrhrhrhr!?!?!?!?!?" scene than just wanting to deactivate the bomb. Once he does that he can finally start again and move on. That's my interpretation of connecting Bane and pain anyway.

Hmm, this is why I find the prison scene confusing. If the theme is pain, it is muddled by using the prison as a symbol of hope vs. despair. It's further muddles by the prison characters discussing fear rather than over-coming pain. It's muddled even more by stating that to escape 'the pit" one must over-come fear rather than pain.

So, there are strands of a theme for pain but the sequences in the prison fragment the theme rather than reinforce it.

 

[ImAlwaysAngry]

His journey is meant to take place after this film.

Then he doesn't warrant a third of the movie. Seriously. Every character of that degree of screen time has to have an arc. Gordon did in TDK. So did Alfred. Even Lucius did!

Catwoman had one here. Blake should have as well. Setups and payoffs. Not complicated.

Hell, even Coleman Reese had a stronger arc than John Blake.

 

[TanneRain]

Then he doesn't warrant a third of the movie. Seriously. Every character of that degree of screen time has to have an arc. Gordon did in TDK. So did Alfred. Even Lucius did!

Catwoman had one here. Blake should have as well. Setups and payoffs. Not complicated.

Hell, even Coleman Reese had a stronger arc than John Blake.

Please.

 

[DKDetective]

Again, this is a good interpretation but does the film clearly state this?

IMO, Bane does not want to prove he is superior to Batman. He simply wants to show that Bruce is failure and give him false hope.

IMO, Bruce is not trying to prove his superiority to Bane but attempting to overcome his personal demons or limitations.

Again, this plays to my point of the theme in this movie lacking clarity. The convoluted nature of its theme results in people having different interpretations.

LOL, God, I love these boards. For years, we're heard people complain about how Nolan beats people over the head with the themes in his films. How him and Goyer should take a course in subtlety. Then when we get that, by and large, people complain about them not spelling everything out for the audience.

It's not that the themes lack clarity, it is that there multiple inter-connected themes that are more subtle and nuanced (than usual for Nolan).

 

[Sensei]

The more I think about, the more I realize that Nolan tried to incorporate all the themes of the previous films into one movie.

TDKR has themes of hope/despair, pain, vengeance, and fear. But by having all these themes present in one movie, it just ends up creating a convoluted and muddled plot, and the characters do not clearly tie into the themes.

 

[Sensei]

LOL, God, I love these boards. For years, we're heard people complain about how Nolan beats people over the head with the themes in his films. How him and Goyer should take a course in subtlety. Then when we get that, by and large, people complain about them not spelling everything out for the audience.

People were complaining that Nolan's themes in his films were too strong/obvious? Hell, that's the main reason I love his films. IMO, a good narrative has a strong and clearly identifiable theme.

Who are these people who complained? If they complained then, they have no right to complain now.

 

[ImAlwaysAngry]

Please.

Truth.

Coleman Reese starts out selfishly trying to blackmail Bruce.

That fails. He goes to the television.

This puts his life in jeopardy.

Bruce saves him.

There is an understanding that Reese will now keep the secret, appreciating the hero that Bruce is more than his own selfishness.

That's pretty clear.

John Blake:

He's a hothead who jumps into trouble! He believes in the Batman!

He gets promoted to detective because he's a hothead.

He tries to get Batman to come back.

He loses his faith in Gordon.

He keeps trying to help people.

He realizes playing by the rules is getting everyone killed, I guess?

He throws away his badge.

He finds the Batcave so he can be a hero.

That's sorta clear I guess. But it takes fifty freaking scenes, most of which don't advance this, in order to get him there.

Maybe his arc is clear enough, but the execution is buried underneath him being used as a plot mover.

He would've been more effective without all the mundane stuff.

 

[ImAlwaysAngry]

LOL, God, I love these boards. For years, we're heard people complain about how Nolan beats people over the head with the themes in his films. How him and Goyer should take a course in subtlety. Then when we get that, by and large, people complain about them not spelling everything out for the audience.

It's not that the themes lack clarity, it is that there multiple inter-connected themes that are more subtle and nuanced (than usual for Nolan).

If you think this movie is subtle, I don't even know where to begin.

Nolan's still using claw hammers. He's just throwing fifty at a time.

 

[TheIrishAvenger]

I think this is my favorite line of the entire trilogy.

"A hero can be anyone. Even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a young boy's shoulders, to let him know the world hadn't ended."

 

[Sensei]

Truth.

Coleman Reese starts out selfishly trying to blackmail Bruce.

That fails. He goes to the television.

This puts his life in jeopardy.

Bruce saves him.

There is an understanding that Reese will now keep the secret, appreciating the hero that Bruce is more than his own selfishness.

That's pretty clear.

John Blake:

He's a hothead who jumps into trouble! He believes in the Batman!

He gets promoted to detective because he's a hothead.

He tries to get Batman to come back.

He loses his faith in Gordon.

He keeps trying to help people.

He realizes playing by the rules is getting everyone killed, I guess?

He throws away his badge.

He finds the Batcave so he can be a hero.

That's sorta clear I guess. But it takes fifty freaking scenes, most of which don't advance this, in order to get him there.

Maybe his arc is clear enough, but the execution is buried underneath him being used as a plot mover.

He would've been more effective without all the mundane stuff.

I think a better plot is John Blake knowing of batman and developing an obsession for determining his identity. Over 8 years, he figures out that Bruce Wayne is Batman or something happens in the plot of TDKR that reveals Bruce as Batman to Blake.

This creates an opportunity for Blake to build a relationship with Bruce by indicating that he does not want to reveal Bruce's identity, and that he wants to help Bruce.

Instead, we have an unrealistic plot development where Blake is an orphan who recognizes the mask Bruce wears and then assumes he is Batman. *sigh*

 

[Kane52630]

I think this is my favorite line of the entire trilogy.

"A hero can be anyone. Even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a young boy's shoulders, to let him know the world hadn't ended."

Loved that line.

 

[GENERAL RAAM582]

Was Dagget hoping Wayne would entrust the company to him, but he instead gave it to Tate?

 

[Deserana]

Deleted

 

[Liam_H]

It was either that or he was hoping to overtake it.

 

[Boom]

Was Dagget hoping Wayne would entrust the company to him, but he instead gave it to Tate?

No. He was all about the hostile takeover.