The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 138

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Bosef,

I understand what you are saying here. There are lines in the film that reference the revolution that is supposedly at the heart of Bane and Talia's plan. I was never confused by their motives, but rather I never really felt I saw their plan in action.

In Batman Begins, we saw how bad Gotham had gotten economically during the time when Bruce was a child and later when he returns to attend the trial of Joe Chill. That was The League of Shadows initial plan. Later, we see how panicked the people in the narrows are as the fear toxin is released, the second attempt by the League to take out Gotham. In both cases, we see the people of Gotham in peril and realize what is at stake, we see the plans in action.

In TDKR, all we see is bridges blown up and small groups of people huddled in buildings. Based on what is SHOWN in the film, all Bane has done is cut off the main island of Gotham from the rest of the world by blowing up a few bridges. He still allows food and supplies through for the people of Gotham, the citizens can still use their cell phones, watch their televisions, etc. Sure, sure you have the all too brief scene of the wealthy of Gotham being rounded up (which was never really made clear it was the so called people of Gotham doing the rounding up and looked rather like Bane's thugs). But other than that the people of Gotham are curiously MIA for alot of the film.

That is what could be confusing some people about Bane and Talia's plan. When Ra's blew through Gotham, there was some real danger and it was SHOWN on screen. The worst Bane does is force people to walk across ice and stay in their homes. I understand there was the constant threat of that bomb going off, but Nolan never shows any of the average citizens of Gotham in fear over it. If he had thrown in one or two scenes with people huddled in their homes, glued to their televisions, with looks of dread and fear, then perhaps Bane's plan would have felt more dangerous, more menacing.

But as played out in the film, it all seems rather pointless. I never felt the people in Gotham were ever in any real danger. I know, the bomb. Yes there was that. But the people were receiving aid, the cops were receiving food in the sewers, and the city itself looked pretty clean and orderly despite the fact that it was cut off from the rest of the world. I mean criminals were running loose and yet the city looks just as it had before Bane arrived.

Nolan never fully commits in regards to truly showing how Bane's plan would really play out. It was said in print and on television by Team Nolan that Bane was going to go further than the Joker did in TDK. Yet, I feel the Joker was far more menacing and his plan far more dangerous. We see the city in panic when Joker finally puts his plan in motion. Joker blows up a hospital, he kidnaps patients, he puts people into a state of real panic and most importantly we see that play out with the people of Gotham.

Nolan really forgot to include in TDKR one of the most important characters in his series to this point: the citizens of Gotham. Show me some people trying to escape in their panic and being killed for it. Show me families scared, children clinging to their parents. Show me people joining the revolution and becoming part of Bane's militia. Show Bane destroying buildings. Show the city in ruins, truly hellish.

You can't claim Nolan held back to appeal to families, because TDK sure didn't and it went on to make over $1 billion in BO. It feels more like Nolan just wasn't truly invested in the material this time. It is a shame. I understand this gentleman's argument that Bane and Talia's plan seemed more about revenge than finishing Ra's legacy. Sure we were told what it was about but I never felt we were ever really SHOWN. And that is an important distinction and one that really kind of ruins the film for me.

Yes yes and 10000000000 times yes!!!!!!!!!

Though I still loved the film this is THEEEEEEEEEE flaw!!!!

Other than Wayne the danger the citizens were in should always have been in the forefront. The story and situation demanded it. Bruce was redemption for himself and Batman after Dent's lie os out the people should have been looking up TO Batman. When the 5 months passed I couldn't help but think "meh it doesn't look that bad. More like a mild annoyance than serious danger."
 
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Bosef,

I understand what you are saying here. There are lines in the film that reference the revolution that is supposedly at the heart of Bane and Talia's plan. I was never confused by their motives, but rather I never really felt I saw their plan in action.

In Batman Begins, we saw how bad Gotham had gotten economically during the time when Bruce was a child and later when he returns to attend the trial of Joe Chill. That was The League of Shadows initial plan. Later, we see how panicked the people in the narrows are as the fear toxin is released, the second attempt by the League to take out Gotham. In both cases, we see the people of Gotham in peril and realize what is at stake, we see the plans in action.

In TDKR, all we see is bridges blown up and small groups of people huddled in buildings. Based on what is SHOWN in the film, all Bane has done is cut off the main island of Gotham from the rest of the world by blowing up a few bridges. He still allows food and supplies through for the people of Gotham, the citizens can still use their cell phones, watch their televisions, etc. Sure, sure you have the all too brief scene of the wealthy of Gotham being rounded up (which was never really made clear it was the so called people of Gotham doing the rounding up and looked rather like Bane's thugs). But other than that the people of Gotham are curiously MIA for alot of the film.

That is what could be confusing some people about Bane and Talia's plan. When Ra's blew through Gotham, there was some real danger and it was SHOWN on screen. The worst Bane does is force people to walk across ice and stay in their homes. I understand there was the constant threat of that bomb going off, but Nolan never shows any of the average citizens of Gotham in fear over it. If he had thrown in one or two scenes with people huddled in their homes, glued to their televisions, with looks of dread and fear, then perhaps Bane's plan would have felt more dangerous, more menacing.

But as played out in the film, it all seems rather pointless. I never felt the people in Gotham were ever in any real danger. I know, the bomb. Yes there was that. But the people were receiving aid, the cops were receiving food in the sewers, and the city itself looked pretty clean and orderly despite the fact that it was cut off from the rest of the world. I mean criminals were running loose and yet the city looks just as it had before Bane arrived.

Nolan never fully commits in regards to truly showing how Bane's plan would really play out. It was said in print and on television by Team Nolan that Bane was going to go further than the Joker did in TDK. Yet, I feel the Joker was far more menacing and his plan far more dangerous. We see the city in panic when Joker finally puts his plan in motion. Joker blows up a hospital, he kidnaps patients, he puts people into a state of real panic and most importantly we see that play out with the people of Gotham.

Nolan really forgot to include in TDKR one of the most important characters in his series to this point: the citizens of Gotham. Show me some people trying to escape in their panic and being killed for it. Show me families scared, children clinging to their parents. Show me people joining the revolution and becoming part of Bane's militia. Show Bane destroying buildings. Show the city in ruins, truly hellish.

You can't claim Nolan held back to appeal to families, because TDK sure didn't and it went on to make over $1 billion in BO. It feels more like Nolan just wasn't truly invested in the material this time. It is a shame. I understand this gentleman's argument that Bane and Talia's plan seemed more about revenge than finishing Ra's legacy. Sure we were told what it was about but I never felt we were ever really SHOWN. And that is an important distinction and one that really kind of ruins the film for me.

Brilliant post :up:

I also never felt that Gotham was in danger, or that the people of Gotham in general were feeling scared or panicked by Bane's presence in Gotham. TDKR was missing those characters that gave Gotham a personality in the previous movies.
 
Someone claimed that when they saw the film a second time the old prologue was used. Probably BS.

The prologue is slightly different in standard theaters versus in IMAX. I caught one or two lines edited back to their original delivery, it was very odd.
 
Even when Gotham was being blown up we never saw ONE ordinary citizen reaction shot. Even the shelters were with characters we sort of knew. One was full of St Swithens orphans and the other was Wayne Enterprises workers there still weren't ordinary citizens in there.

I can't help but feel that a two parter would have explored these things more.
 
Yes yes and 10000000000 times yes!!!!!!!!!

Though I still loved the film this is THEEEEEEEEEE flaw!!!!

Other than Wayne the danger the citizens were in should always have been in the forefront. The story and situation demanded it. Bruce was redemption for himself and Batman after Dent's lie os out the people should have been looking up TO Batman. When the 5 months passed I couldn't help but think "meh it doesn't look that bad. More like a mild annoyance than serious danger."
This is why I'm not fully satisfied with the story by the end of the film. Bruce NEEDS this redemption. More than a statue created for Batman, and definitely more than a smirk of approval from John Blake when he learns Bruce left Wayne Manor for the orphans.
 
Yeah...you didn't get the sense of oncoming apocalypse or doom in the city...more just turning it into a big ghost town with pockets of violence. Whereas in TDK, it felt like the entire world was coming to an end, and that everyone was going to eat eachother alive.
 
The hospital scene in TDK is a great example of using the ordinary citizens to enhance the feeling. The chaos in the hospital coridoors and outside, the chaos outside the television studio with one person even shooting at Reese, the Officer Berg going to shoot Reese, then later on we see Engel reading the news and we the reaction of the people in the bar. Then obviously you have the ferries at the end and say what you will about the acting it still gives a sense of doom.

All this enhances Gotham and show us there are people enhabiting the world other than Wayne, Dent and The Joker. In TDKR the world doesn't move outside of the core cast.

In TDKR the streets should have been in pieces, people should have rioting, mini-rebellions ANYTHING to make the audience say "this place really needs Batman". But it never does.
 
It's what I mentioned before when comparing SR/Luthor to TDK....


Luthor caused tidal waves, Earthquakes, and other geographical cataclysms......but look what Joker did with some bullets and couple of cans of gasoline.

Which one did you feel more?
 
I prefer Bane as the villain and his plan on paper but Joker's plan seemed to cause more ****
 
does everyone on these boards sincerely hate this movie, or are you all just sad to see it go so redirect that lose into hate? i havent seen anyone on these boards post one good thing about the dark knight rises, but rather nitpick it, hate it, etc

I have no idea what's the consensus in this boards about the movie (it opened really late in here and so i haven't read it for a long time)...but i can tell you i absolutely adored it :woot:

Just a fascinating journey through a lot of batman myths. Only Begins first 45 minutes is comparable to this whole movie.

Which one is better...i have no idea. I just know they work really well together. And that is a huge achievement. A flawless trilogy.
 
Has anyone posted in here in the last several pages or so that they actually hate this movie?
 
I prefer Bane as the villain and his plan on paper but Joker's plan seemed to cause more ****

Ain't the size of the pencil, but how it writes.




edit: whoa...almost misspelled pencil.



:oldrazz:
 
I hated this movie, I thought it was turrible.

*looks at my 10/10 rating* :o
 
The difference between Joker's and Bane's plans is that Joker always seemed to have another plan waiting around the corner. It felt like he had hundreds of things thought out so if one thing didn't work out he'd switch to another option. Bane had an obvious end game, wheras the Joker really did feel like, if he hadn't been caught, he would have gone on forever.

Also, Batman only stopped a part of the Joker's plan. In many senses, the Joker won by corrupting Harvey Dent. Bane's plan was foiled completely.
 
The difference between Joker's and Bane's plans is that Joker always seemed to have another plan waiting around the corner. It felt like he had hundreds of things thought out so if one thing didn't work out he'd switch to another option. Bane had an obvious end game, wheras the Joker really did feel like, if he hadn't been caught, he would have gone on forever.

Also, Batman only stopped a part of the Joker's plan. In many senses, the Joker won by corrupting Harvey Dent. Bane's plan was foiled completely.

I saw it like he turned things inside out and discombobulated/chaotic...and he operated best in a world like that. It's like if a highly-tuned, athletic and graceful fighter faces someone who's tough, non-rhythmic and unpredictable....he's going to have more problems than with someone more his 'speed'.

It's like Batman can surely out-physical Joker in a conventional fight...but it's like trying to fight a piece of rubber coated in grease...it just bounces around and you can't get a good grip on it, and it exhausts you. Joker pulled a big rope-a-dope on Bats.
 
If you wouldn't compare Joker and Bane from the comics, you shouldn't compare them in a film series. Joker isnt a brutal strategist that works for the League of Shadows and Bane isn't scar story telling clown who destroys everything for fun
 
I saw it like he turned things inside out and discombobulated/chaotic...and he operated best in a world like that. It's like if a highly-tuned, athletic and graceful fighter faces someone who's tough, non-rhythmic and unpredictable....he's going to have more problems than with someone more his 'speed'.

It's like Batman can surely out-physical Joker in a conventional fight...but it's like trying to fight a piece of rubber coated in grease...it just bounces around and you can't get a good grip on it, and it exhausts you. Joker pulled a big rope-a-dope on Bats.

Agreed, and that's what makes the Joker so fun. Bane was done very well, but he's just different from the Joker.

I still think one of my favorite pieces of Joker triva is that in all of arkham, the only person who could beat both Ras and Bane in chess was the Joker.
 
If you wouldn't compare Joker and Bane from the comics, you shouldn't compare them in a film series. Joker isnt a brutal strategist that works for the League of Shadows and Bane isn't scar story telling clown who destroys everything for fun

We aren't comparing we are just saying what we felt had more weight. The general consensus seems to be Joker's.
 
We aren't comparing we are just saying what we felt had more weight. The general consensus seems to be Joker's.

It all comes down to a preference: breaking Batman spiritually (The Joker), or breaking Batman physically (Bane)
 
I still think one of my favorite pieces of Joker triva is that in all of arkham, the only person who could beat both Ras and Bane in chess was the Joker.

Just messing about here, but then Bruce Wayne owned him in that card game in the animated series :oldrazz:
 
Agreed, and that's what makes the Joker so fun. Bane was done very well, but he's just different from the Joker.

I still think one of my favorite pieces of Joker triva is that in all of arkham, the only person who could beat both Ras and Bane in chess was the Joker.

But that's helped by the fact that he plays naked.
 
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