The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - Part 140

[CConn]

Agreed.

But Batman said "War", so obviously Nolan captured the idea absolutely flawlessly, and if you don't agree then you don't "Get it".

It's not that it was done flawlessly, it's that it's an extremely minute aspect of the film that didn't really need to be mentioned, let alone debated for the past 5 pages.

Like seriously, sometimes we need to just take a step back, realize we're hyper-analytical geeks, and move on.

 

[BatLobster]

Like seriously, sometimes we need to just take a step back, realize we're hyper-analytical geeks, and move on.

I'll drink to that.

 

[The Joker]

On a side not, it's pretty funny that same people are always attacking this film.

You mean like how it's the same people always attempting to defend it's flaws?

You're right, that is pretty funny.

Agreed.

But Batman said "War", so obviously Nolan captured the idea absolutely flawlessly, and if you don't agree then you don't "Get it", a statement I'd actually consider taking seriously if it wasn't constantly said by apologist snobs on an internet message board.

Indeed. When Nolan puts in radical plot points and mishandles it's execution, then he was right. We just don't "get it" because we do not write paragraphs and paragraphs of conjecture that the movie doesn't even support to validate it.

Where does Batman acknowledge that he must break his one rule? When he says "War"? So either Nolan dosen't have him acknowledging that he must kill, or he did it in a shoddy, nearly nonexistent way.

Heck they call Gordon a war hero from his TDK days. If TDK was "war" for Gotham, too, does that mean Batman had to be killing people then, too?

 

[Micromind]

Alfred - "When you told me your grand plan for saving Gotham. . .
the only thing that stopped me from calling the men in white coats. . .
. . .was when you said it wasn't about thrill-seeking."

Bruce-"lt's not."

Alfred - "What would you call that?"

Bruce- "Damn good television."

Alfred- "lt's a miracle no one was killed.'

Bruce- "I didn't have time to observe the rules of the road, Alfred".

Alfred- "You're getting lost inside this monster of yours."

Remember, that scene from Batman Begins where Rachel is poisoned by Scarecrow's fear Toxin and Batman rushes her to Batcave in Tumbler, he drives recklessly, and put lives of other Cops (who are chasing him) at danger, later we see Alfred scolding him.

That showed that Batman would not think twice about his code of no killing under certain circumstances. This is not comics Batman we are talking about, it is Nolan's version of Batman.

 

[The Joker]

Remember, that scene from Batman Begins where Rachel is poisoned by Scarecrow's fear Toxin and Batman rushes her to Batcave in Tumbler, he drives recklessly, and put lives of other Cops (who are chasing him) at danger, later we see Alfred scolding him.

That showed that Batman would not think twice about his code of no killing under certain circumstances. This is not comics Batman we are talking about, it is Nolan's version of Batman.

There's a difference between driving recklessly, and actually killing people by using lethal force like missiles which are blatantly lethal weaponry with devastating effects.

Second, Batman Begins actually made the point to say that the way Batman was driving in that scene was WRONG by having Alfred chew him out over it afterward. "It's damn good television", "I don't care about my name" etc. Bruce was acting like a *****e in this scene in general, and Alfred was slapping him down for it.

 

[Micromind]

Heck they call Gordon a war hero from his TDK days. If TDK was "war" for Gotham, too, does that mean Batman had to be killing people then, too?

Surely there is a difference when some one calls Gordon a "War Hero" (which is exaggerating a lot) and Batman actually declaring a War on Bane and his men.

 

[The Joker]

Surely there is a difference when some one calls Gordon a "War Hero" (which is exaggerating a lot) and Batman actually declaring a War on Bane and his men.

Hang on a minute, according to you the script is exaggerating calling Gordon a war hero, but Batman saying war is not an exaggeration?

I get it now. One set of rules for your argument, and another for ours.

 

[The Batman]

There's a difference between driving recklessly, and actually killing people by using lethal force like missiles which are blatantly lethal weaponry with devastating effects.

Second, Batman Begins actually made the point to say that the way Batman was driving in that scene was WRONG by having Alfred chew him out over it afterward. "It's damn good television", "I don't care about my name" etc. Bruce was acting like a *****e in this scene in general, and Alfred was slapping him down for it.

I just love how Bruce_Begins seemingly implies that he thinks Bruce would not necessarily mind killing a bunch of cops (even if they were corrupt, which we have no way of knowing in that scene) just so his childhood friend would be safe.

Hang on a minute, according to you the script is exaggerating calling Gordon a war hero, but Batman saying war is not an exaggeration?

I get it now. One set of rules for your argument, and another for ours.

This.

 

[CConn]

Hang on a minute, according to you the script is exaggerating calling Gordon a war hero, but Batman saying war is not an exaggeration?

I get it now. One set of rules for your argument, and another for ours.

No, he makes sense.

We're talking about Batman's moral code.

Not some random politician's.

 

[The Batman]

^ not really.

as this discussion shows,and at the risk of reading another stupid condescending remark, not everyone assumes that Batman talking about war = Batman realizes that he must kill.

 

[The Joker]

No, he makes sense.

We're talking about Batman's moral code.

And your point of view is more valid than the words Nolan chose to put in his script to describe Gordon's status in Gotham?

Not some random politician's.

What's a random politician got to do with it? His line was not argued in the movie. His conversation with Foley was pivotal to pointing out Gordon's and Gotham's current situation. Namely;

1. Gotham was at peace time
2. Gordon was going to be retired by the Mayor because things are so good
3. Gordon's wife left him and took the kids with her

All said by the Senator character. All valid. Just because the war hero label was given by the Senator doesn't mean it's not valid and not how Gordon was seen and meant to be seen.

 

[Micromind]

I just love how Bruce_Begins seemingly implies that he thinks Bruce would not necessarily mind killing a bunch of cops (even if they were corrupt, which we have no way of knowing in that scene) just so his childhood friend would be safe.

There is no conjecture on my part, the scene is there in the movie, maybe you need to watch it again.

EDIT: And I would not say that he wanted to kill the cops but he certainly did put their lives in danger.

 

[BatLobster]

It's not necessarily that he understands he must kill. It's implicit that Batman will always do what's within his power not to take life. If this wasn't the case then he would have blown away all those LOS mercenaries with the Bat when they formed in the streets.

It's simply an acknowledgement that they are at war. He tells Blake, "you've given me an army." Batman is clearly thinking of himself as the leader of this army. If he's expecting them to kill, why should he not be prepared to do the same IF the situation calls for it?

To me this was actually explored visually, because we see Batman fighting side by side with the police in daylight. Something completely stark and different for this or any Batman (minus Adam West, sorta). It's a completely different tone and it shows that this battle is different from all of his previous ones.

 

[The Batman]

There is no conjecture on my part, the scene is there in the movie, maybe you need to watch it again.

EDIT: And I would not say that he wanted to kill the cops but he certainly did put their lives in danger.

For one thing "I had no time to observe the rules of the road" does not equal "If those cops had to die so I could escape, so be it." Being reckless is not the same as potentially being ready to consider cops collateral damage.

You have no idea how he'd react if he DID kill those cops during the chase. Those cops aren't the same as Two Face or Ra's Al Ghul or the Truck Driver in TDKR.

 

[CConn]

^ not really.

as this discussion shows,and at the risk of reading another stupid condescending remark, not everyone assumes that Batman talking about war = Batman realizes that he must kill.

I'm not being condescending, I'm being real. This is a ridiculously small and inconsequential point to debate.

And your point of view is more valid than the words Nolan chose to put in his script to describe Gordon's status in Gotham?

Because they're two entirely different characters?

It's like you're approaching it from the perspective that every character in the movie has to think and feel the same way simply because they're all being written by the same person. That's not how it should, or does, work. We're taking about Batman's own moral code - what Gordon or any other character in the film thinks or does is not of any consequence.

 

[The Batman]

I'm not being condescending, I'm being real. This is a ridiculously small and inconsequential point to debate.

...And yet you're debating it. And Ironically enough, I wasn't talking about you when I mentioned condescending remarks.

All I'm going to say is, in Batman's line "It wasn't" in TDK and the "Not everything. Not Yet" line in TDKR are both examples of lines that contain a lot of meaning, as simple as they are.

IMO, Batman saying "War" does not.

 

[shauner111]

That's your opinion. "War" means a lot to me in that scene, and paints a picture that means Batman will now do everything to save the lives of millions. If people can't see that then it's their loss. It's quite obvious to me that it holds meaning for the remainder of the film and how Batman is going to behave.

 

[BatLobster]

I agree, but hey at the end of the day it's opinion vs. opinion I suppose. In my opinion it was a deliberate choice to have Batman say the word "war" and talk about the police as his army, since he never really directly shown to speak or think in those terms in the previous films. It made it stand out more, not to mention the situation was clearly depicted as a war between two opposing sides. A militaristic theme was pretty much built into the entire film, particularly with Bane's aesthetic and the camo Tumblers, etc.

 

[The Joker]

Because they're two entirely different characters?

Who is? We know Nolan uses his characters as exposition pieces to explain things. For example when Alfred is explaining about the Joker being like the bandit who liked to steal precious rubies for sport, it was a valid way of explaining the crazy mentality of the Joker.

The same as a SENATOR of Gotham City calling the Police Commissioner a war hero was Nolan's way of telling the audience that's what Gordon is to Gotham City. That calls into question just how much meaning "war" has in Gotham City. The Joker turned Gotham's people into a rampaging murderous mob, panicked and terrorized the whole city, caused a city wide evacuation, killed Judges, Police Commissioners etc. One could call that war in a city.

People even call rivalry between gangs and mobs a gang war. So Batman's meaning of "war" is as up to interpretation as anyone's. So Shauner111 if you don't get that then that's your loss.

It's like you're approaching it from the perspective that every character in the movie has to think and feel the same way simply because they're all being written by the same person.

How does that make a lick of sense to you? Did Batman and Bane think the same way? Did Alfred agree with Bruce about going back as Batman? Did Blake agree with Gordon covering for Dent's crimes?

I'm talking about something as simple as Gordon's status as a war hero in Gotham. It wasn't some major issue that was disputed. Nolan had the line dropped in to tell the audience how Gordon is viewed by Gotham, that the "war time" has passed, and peace time is here.

It's as simple as that. Why are you trying to over complicate something so straight forward?

We're taking about Batman's own moral code - what Gordon or any other character in the film thinks or does is not of any consequence.

If that were the case, then why would Nolan bother to make the characters offer insights into other characters in the movie? He wouldn't waste his time if it was of no consequence as you suggest it is. Especially from the noble characters like Gordon and Alfred.

 

[BatLobster]

People even call rivalry between gangs and mobs a gang war. So Batman's meaning of "war" is as up to interpretation as anyone's. So Shauner111 if you don't get that then that's your loss.

I thought it was pretty clear that Batman means war in the traditional sense. "All out assault on Bane". He's talking about a massive coordinated ground strike...it's war. I don't know how much room for interpretation there is.

 

[shauner111]

People even call rivalry between gangs and mobs a gang war. So Batman's meaning of "war" is as up to interpretation as anyone's. So Shauner111 if you don't get that then that's your loss.

Wrong.

They can call it what they want, that's not a war. And neither is Joker terrorizing a city. THIS was a war in the truest sense. 1 army versus another army. If you can't see that, you're in denial. It's not up for interpretation, there's no room for your precious "conjecture" it's just plain facts. It's war and Batman means it. And he's not gonna purposely kill a man, but if there's casualties in his quest for getting that bomb, then so be it. For the the 80th time...it's "War" in Gotham City.

 

[Caped Crusader]

It's not necessarily that he understands he must kill. It's implicit that Batman will always do what's within his power not to take life. If this wasn't the case then he would have blown away all those LOS mercenaries with the Bat when they formed in the streets.

It's simply an acknowledgement that they are at war. He tells Blake, "you've given me an army." Batman is clearly thinking of himself as the leader of this army. If he's expecting them to kill, why should he not be prepared to do the same IF the situation calls for it?

To me this was actually explored visually, because we see Batman fighting side by side with the police in daylight. Something completely stark and different for this or any Batman (minus Adam West, sorta). It's a completely different tone and it shows that this battle is different from all of his previous ones.

 

[The Batman]

That's your opinion.

Yes.

Hence the "IMO" I put there. Did you miss it in your vain attempts to sound more enlightened than everyone else?

And you're the ones who talk about people not understanding things?

 

[BatLobster]

As long as we can all realize that it's ultimately just opinion, there's some hope. It's fine if the "War" line wasn't enough for some people to justify Batman killing later. For me, it was the moment the stakes were raised and you knew serious stuff was going down. Ultimately a lot this comes down to how you prefer to see Batman written. Though I'd hope we can all agree that Batman wasn't morally "in the wrong" to kill the truck driver considering what was at stake, and are merely debating whether the film had set it up well or not.

One life vs. 12 million lives. I think, you give any version of Batman that choice, he'd make the same call as was made in TDKR. The film might have depicted it callously, but again, that comes down to it being war IMO. That's the point. No time for Batman to have another moral crisis. Although he was trying to direct the truck a certain way with his fire until the driver (by following Talia's orders) gave him no choice.

 

[The Joker]

Wrong.

How convincing an argument. No conjectural fan fiction to go with it? I'm almost disappointed.

They can call it what they want, that's not a war. And neither is Joker terrorizing a city.

To paraphrase you; you can call it what you want, that was a class of war. Urban war. Hence why TDKR labelled Gordon a War Hero.

THIS was a war in the truest sense. 1 army versus another army. If you can't see that, you're in denial.

You mean like the Joker's and the underworld versus the Cops? Like how they called Joker a terrorist?

It's not up for interpretation

Keep your close minded views to yourself if you really believe that.

there's no room for your precious "conjecture" it's just plain facts.

My precious conjecture? Don't confuse me with yourself. I'm not the one who writes paragraphs upon paragraphs of unfounded fan fiction about a fictional Act lol.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

The day I see you talking plain facts when it comes to this movie I think I'll keel over in shock.

It's war and Batman means it.

To quote what you said to The Batman; In your opinion. To quote what you said to me; if you can't see that then you're in denial.

Yes.

Hence the "IMO" I put there. Did you miss it in your vain attempts to sound more enlightened than everyone else?

And you're the ones who talk about people not understanding things?