The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 148

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

On my shelf, the two Burton films, all the BTAS box-sets and TDK Trilogy make a damn fine representation of the character. A lot of my favourite moments come from TDK Rises, so I by no means dislike the movie. The high points in the movie are high.

Thats true... when Nolan gets it right, he gets it really right.

 

[kvz5]

Those who watch American Horror Story Coven will totally get this.

 

[milost]

I think it's funny how we'll discount criticism and age for TDKR or the Trilogy as a whole with, Blade Runner, The Thing, etc. comparison/analogies. Those movies were panned right out the door. It played out completely different than how these Batman movies have. Batman movies were never cult films that took years to have an appreciation for, they've been loved right from the get go for the most part, some even before their theatrical debut. Batman movies have always had that magical aura to them, even Batman and Robin until that fateful weekend. Was there that doubt in 2003/'04 with Begins? Sure, but that was swept away even though the film itself wasn't majorly hyped. It's apples and oranges.

In my eye's I think it's the younger generation, those folks that are in their teens and 20s that are trying to build it up as this Star Wars type thing and make it have more meaning than it actually does. I see it brought up again and again, but it's simply not the case. To appreciate Star Wars, you had to be there. People take it for granted now, but it was truly a phenomenon at the time. These Batman movies, as great as they are, aren't that (which isn't a bad thing). It's something else.

Star Wars, and it's ilk (I'd throw Robocop, Terminator and Batman '89 in there as well, pretty much those great 70s, 80s blockbusters) were made out of humble beginnings and aren't so easily replicated. If you want to see an example, just look at the making of documentary specials. Nobody in the 70s thought Star Wars was going to be "a thing". It had huge problems, a stressed out director (on the verge of a heart attack), and a cast and crew that thought they were making this silly, weird thing. The Terminator? It had huge struggles. Nobody could have imagined this B-movie looking film would have franchise potential. Batman '89? Huge, huge risk. A project few people had faith in from the get go (other than it's crazy producers). They wore their faults and blemishes like a badge and there was a significant struggle to get them on screen.

The Nolan series? Not so. Look no further than Fire Rises documentary. It has great insight but it's crazy pretentious. There's actually a segment that talks about it's legacy as if it's decades years old. The producers say straight up that they had no qualms about it from the get go. It's always been "good", "great", "fantastic" and even the creators say as much. Now I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but it is different.

Personally, if there's going to be one that's celebrated and cherished, one that will age like a "fine wine" (whatever that means for a movie), it's going to be The Dark Knight without a doubt. It's the best thing to come out of the genre in the past 20 years. Ledger's fantastic portrayal of the Joker alone and all the nostalgia the film brings in general makes that a sure bet. As far as "Nolan Batman", "TDKT" goes, Begins was small potatoes back in 2005. It was good no doubt, but there wasn't this electrifying renowned quality to the franchise until The Dark Knight. That era of good feelings is all the Dark Knight, and that was pretty much out of the gate, and for good reason.

There's no denying their impact, but a little bit of criticisms particularly at ONE film out of the three and it just seems like people instantly want to proclaim it as untouchable for the future. From my experience (I was there for those older films that are deemed "classic" now), my money is on The Dark Knight, not the others. Whatever "stand the test of time" actually means. There will always be someone out there with a varying view or folks that just don't give a damn. I think we as a community (fanboys, film enthusiasts, etc.) get a little ostentatious about the things we enjoy, to the point where it's almost ridiculous. Settle down and like what you like, don't worry about how things will play out in the future or how others feel about what you dig and cherish. People can't dictate what you like. It doesn't matter.

 

[BatLobster]

I'll step up. I'm 27.

I've said this time and time again, but when I say this series was my Star Wars...I am not saying that this was the cultural equivalent. It's really apples and oranges when it comes to that. Obviously Begins and ANH especially are worlds apart in terms of quality and impact. I'm saying the level of hype and energy that I experienced along with my fellow fan (and non-fan) brethren for these movies made me feel like this is as close as I will personally come in my lifetime to what it must have felt like to be a part of the Star Wars phenomenon as it was happening.

If anyone has a problem with me drawing that comparison, I really, really do not care. I deeply cherish the experience of going to the movies and especially seeing these kinds of event films with large groups of friends in a packed theater. These films, particularly the IMAX experience of latter two made me feel like I was experiencing something truly larger than life. The visceral adrenaline rush, and powerful surge of emotions I felt during these movies stood out to me as being a lot more pronounced and BIG than what I experienced for any other blockbusters in recent years. Therefore, it felt like something that was "more than just a movie" to me. And I can only imagine that's what seeing Star Wars on the big screen must have felt like. That's why I draw the comparison.

 

[shauner111]

They talk about its legacy in the documentary because it already has had a tremendous influence. There would be no Casino Royale, Star Trek, Amazing Spider-Man, Man Of Steel, Skyfall, etc etc AS THEY ARE if not for the trilogy. And i do mean as they are. Casino Royale was bound to get made, on and on. But as it came out? At that time? Nope. These movies will carry onto sequels and lead into other things. It's all related to the trilogy.

For better or worse.

 

[Travesty]

Wait...I haven't seen the documentary, but are you telling me that the doc said that there would be no CR, ST, or a new Spidey without TDKT?

Was it saying that TDKT was the first popular...trilogy?

I'm confused. Things are sounding pretentious as **** to me right now. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

[BatLobster]

Nah, nobody in the doc said that.

The main idea the doc discusses in terms of "impact" is how the movies raised the bar for the genre and aimed to work as "good films", not just "good superhero films". And at one point Nolan mentions that when he tackled Batman Begins, there was no such term in Hollywood as "reboot" (which is true), so it was uncharted territory to take on a popular franchise, reinvent it and pretend that the prior movies never happened.

That's all.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah, that's all. I was just adding in some facts and opinions about its impact. It's pretty much a fact that none of those movies would have been made, the way they were shortly after these Batman movies. Ive read this kind of thing from various reviewers and people in the industry. But we've all noticed the impact on these movies. Reboots in general are happening constantly with a more serious direction because of Batman Begins.

 

[craigdbfan]

Directors from the films you mention have specifically mentioned Batman Begins and TDK. It's not a matter of "Gee, I think" when the directors and producers themselves say they borrowed elements and guidelines set up by these films.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah exactly. Sam Mendes, etc.

 

[BatLobster]

Nope, Sam Mendes is a pretentious doo-doo head because he thinks TDK had an influence on Skyfall.

 

[SilentWarriorZ]

I wonder what impact it left on nolan himself ?

 

[Tequilla]

I wonder what impact it left on nolan himself ?

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

t:

 

[Kane52630]

All dat money...on vests.

 

[Shikamaru]

Did Nolan burn all that money as well?

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Nolan: ''All you directors care about is money. This generation deserves a better class of filmmaker. And I'm gonna give it to them!''

Had to be done.

 

[Tequilla]

Did Nolan burn all that money as well?

I found a specifically non-burning pic with joker and the money t:

 

[Black Narcissus]

 

[DACrowe]

I think it's funny how we'll discount criticism and age for TDKR or the Trilogy as a whole with, Blade Runner, The Thing, etc. comparison/analogies. Those movies were panned right out the door. It played out completely different than how these Batman movies have. Batman movies were never cult films that took years to have an appreciation for, they've been loved right from the get go for the most part, some even before their theatrical debut. Batman movies have always had that magical aura to them, even Batman and Robin until that fateful weekend. Was there that doubt in 2003/'04 with Begins? Sure, but that was swept away even though the film itself wasn't majorly hyped. It's apples and oranges.

In my eye's I think it's the younger generation, those folks that are in their teens and 20s that are trying to build it up as this Star Wars type thing and make it have more meaning than it actually does. I see it brought up again and again, but it's simply not the case. To appreciate Star Wars, you had to be there. People take it for granted now, but it was truly a phenomenon at the time. These Batman movies, as great as they are, aren't that (which isn't a bad thing). It's something else.

Star Wars, and it's ilk (I'd throw Robocop, Terminator and Batman '89 in there as well, pretty much those great 70s, 80s blockbusters) were made out of humble beginnings and aren't so easily replicated. If you want to see an example, just look at the making of documentary specials. Nobody in the 70s thought Star Wars was going to be "a thing". It had huge problems, a stressed out director (on the verge of a heart attack), and a cast and crew that thought they were making this silly, weird thing. The Terminator? It had huge struggles. Nobody could have imagined this B-movie looking film would have franchise potential. Batman '89? Huge, huge risk. A project few people had faith in from the get go (other than it's crazy producers). They wore their faults and blemishes like a badge and there was a significant struggle to get them on screen.

The Nolan series? Not so. Look no further than Fire Rises documentary. It has great insight but it's crazy pretentious. There's actually a segment that talks about it's legacy as if it's decades years old. The producers say straight up that they had no qualms about it from the get go. It's always been "good", "great", "fantastic" and even the creators say as much. Now I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but it is different.

Personally, if there's going to be one that's celebrated and cherished, one that will age like a "fine wine" (whatever that means for a movie), it's going to be The Dark Knight without a doubt. It's the best thing to come out of the genre in the past 20 years. Ledger's fantastic portrayal of the Joker alone and all the nostalgia the film brings in general makes that a sure bet. As far as "Nolan Batman", "TDKT" goes, Begins was small potatoes back in 2005. It was good no doubt, but there wasn't this electrifying renowned quality to the franchise until The Dark Knight. That era of good feelings is all the Dark Knight, and that was pretty much out of the gate, and for good reason.

There's no denying their impact, but a little bit of criticisms particularly at ONE film out of the three and it just seems like people instantly want to proclaim it as untouchable for the future. From my experience (I was there for those older films that are deemed "classic" now), my money is on The Dark Knight, not the others. Whatever "stand the test of time" actually means. There will always be someone out there with a varying view or folks that just don't give a damn. I think we as a community (fanboys, film enthusiasts, etc.) get a little ostentatious about the things we enjoy, to the point where it's almost ridiculous. Settle down and like what you like, don't worry about how things will play out in the future or how others feel about what you dig and cherish. People can't dictate what you like. It doesn't matter.

I'll step in to a degree. You are right that Nolan's Bat-films are not congruent with Blade Runner or for that matter Rocky Horror. It was not a box office flop that became a classic through sheer force of excellence (or depravity).

However, I think a better example may be the Star Wars trilogy or Indiana Jones trilogy. You're right that even TDK did not have the same level of cultural impact as Star Wars or Raiders of the Lost Ark, albeit I think that it got closer than any movie released in the last 20 years or so (Jurassic Park being the last one to actually match those).

However, in each of those trilogies there is one or two considered flawless--Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back--and there is one considered of lesser quality--Return of the Jedi and Temple of Doom--that fans in the immediate complained about and hated upon. Now, both trilogies are considered mostly of one work and while many can discern ESB is better than ROTJ and that TOD is not as good as TLC, they are still all generally adored by multiple generations as being a great work of cinematic effort that married commerce with an artistic sensibility.

I think while neither BB or TDKR are on par with TDK (though I prefer Rises to Begins, honestly), they are both of a superb quality in their own right. When taken together as a trilogy, later generations will see them shine all the brighter as a complete work while much of their contemporaries like the Iron Man sequels, The Incredible Hulk, Fantastic Four, the Raimi trilogy, The Amazing Spider-Man, the Thor movies, etc. probably age less gracefully.

It seems almost inevitable.

 

[The_Raganork]

We also live in dramatically different times. This isn't the 70's anymore. Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark were giants then, I am almost positive they wouldn't be now. We are a jaded culture in a lot of respects. Something must be popular already for it to be popular.

For what it's worth I think TDK will be better received than most other CBM in ten or twenty years. Simply because it came at a good time and did something favorable. It has the appeal of several types of films as well as turning our ideas of Batman and the Joker on their heads. (maybe not US but the G.A.).

 

[shauner111]

I can totally agree with that DACrowe.

Rises is still a loved film by many, it's not the Godfather Part 3. But it has more in common with the Godfather trilogy than the others because like that, it feels like one giant story. Unfortunately the third film is often ignored and people only talk about the brilliance of Godfather 1 & 2. This is just not the case with Rises.

A good example is Rotten Tomatoes (not accurate all the time but a good measuring stick nonetheless). Rises scores higher than Begins. Jedi scores the lowest of its SW trilogy. And of course the third Godfather has a score/percentage in the 60s.

 

[BatLobster]

It seems almost inevitable.

Yup. In fact I'd be really, really surprised if what you described there is NOT the case for the trilogy in 20 years.

It's funny how some people seem to think it's sooo ostentatious to predict that the trilogy will be remembered and well-regarded in the future, but I think it's basically just stating the obvious and inevitable. Yes, obviously it will be remembered especially because of TDK, but as Denny O'Neil said...the three films tell a greater story that's better than any of the individual films. That's why it's a trilogy and not just 3 films in a series.

 

[The_Raganork]

Batman Begins will be Forgotten. come on guys...lets be serious. It's forgotten now.

TDKR will not be remembered as a good film. Just as one that happened. It's ALREADY happening.

I know we all love Batman here but, come on.

 

[BatLobster]

Forgotten? It's on TV like every week.

Sorry, disagree Rag. Again, TDK will easily be remembered as the best bunch of the bunch. But I strongly disagree that these movies will go down in history as "that one good film and those other two meh films". No way. It's so much better than that. And there is SO MUCH crap getting made today that it stands out even more.

Not to mention, Nolan has already pretty much reached legendary status only 13 years into his career, so most if not all of his films will continue to be talked about for years to come. And the trilogy will no doubt stand out as a notable, ambitious effort in his filmography.