The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]467675[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]461641[/split]

 

[The Joker]

Shauner, this is like the millionth time I say this, but I do not care one bit what others think of TDKR. Paul Dini isn't my God and I don't have to agree with every single thing he says. Same goes for Morrison, Dennis O'Neil, and all the other Batman writers that I like. I'm sure there are lots of people I like that liked TDKR and other things I dislike. I'm also sure there are lots of people I like that hated many things that I like. That's just the way the world works. You will never find two people in this world who will agree with on absolutely everything and if you do, it means one of them stopped thinking.

I form my own opinions based on my own judgments; I will listen to what other people say, but I won't agree with them just because they said it.

Two can play your game, by the way. I'm sure I can dig up some TDKR hate coming from some well known names if I look hard enough. Morrison also once said that Batman is "very, very gay" (yes, "gay" as in homosexual). Is Morrison's word the law just because he is Morrison? Do I have to agree with that statement just because I like his work on Batman? Going by the same logic of "TDKR = good because Morrison said so", the answer is yes.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your obsession with other people's opinions on TDKR anyways? You're the only one here that's so concerned with what other writers thought of TDKR, with what other people in general thought of TDKR, with how TDKR will be looked at 10 years from now, etc. Furthermore, you have by-far the most black-and-white mentality out of everyone here, constantly using language like "TDKR haters" and "purists". It's as if you're on an internet quest to cleanse people's souls of all conceivable disgust related to TDKR or something.

Exactly. Does everyone who says Bane isn't a lackey have to agree with Bane's creators, Graham Nolan and Chuck Dixon, because they thought Talia was the mastermind and Bane was the lackey:

I liked how Bane was portrayed by Tom Hardy, but I'm not a fan of the mask or the fact that Talia was pulling the strings. Bane would not be manipulated by any man...or woman for that matter.

http://www.newsarama.com/18171-bane-s-co-creator-returns-for-villains-month.html

They treated him as a viable serious threat for Batman. That’s the best I could hope for. I wish he’d turned out to the mastermind in the end. But they made him a household name and I’m grateful for that.

http://www.gothamwdeszczu.com.pl/en/2013/07/04/interview-chuck-dixon/

 

[milost]

Why did Shauner even bring that up? Seems pretty random, especially when there wasn't even a debate or argument going on at that point in time. Maybe it was the little jabs and riffs on it from Coogan and Brydon?

It's as if you're on an internet quest to cleanse people's souls of all conceivable disgust related to TDKR or something.

Bingo.

Exactly. Does everyone who says Bane isn't a lackey have to agree with Bane's creators, Graham Nolan and Chuck Dixon, because they thought Talia was the mastermind and Bane was the lackey:

Welp, if that means Bane's very own creators (the writers that invented him) thinks the movie version is lame and a lackey, that definitely means he is! Case closed.


I like how the only plus that's mentioned about it is that it gave Bane a mainstream appeal.

 

[BatLobster]

What mainstream appeal? Everyone hated Bane and his stupid Adam Sandler voice. Didn't you get the memo?

 

[milost]

Everyone hated Bane and his stupid Adam Sandler voice. Didn't you get the memo?

 

[shauner111]

Hehehe. I knew that would stir the pot. I also don't give a damn what people think about movies. I love plenty of things that people hate. I brought that up because this thread was a little slow in the last few days so i figured i'd change the topic a bit to what Batman's writers or celebrities feel about the movie.

Like with Chuck Dixon or Graham Nolan, i dont agree with them. But i also dont value their opinion. At least not as much as other writers who i think are much better. They can disagree with the use of Bane and Talia but it's not like they created her (Denny did and he seemed fine with the changes to Talia). Bane isn't exactly like the comics either because he's an amalgamation of other characters. Deacon Blackfire being just one of those characters.

Knightfall for example had a great concept and IMO a good first volume but then it started sucking as it went on.

And Shikamaru calm down LOL. And people say i take things too seriously? Wow.

I say purists because there are purists out there. It's obvious.

My obsession with other peoples opinions on the trilogy? It's something to talk about especially when people are constantly coming on here just to bash something. Which i find hilarious because it has literally been a constant thing with ppl. It's been out for 2 years and the haters still come to this thread to spew their hate. It just makes me think "well, if i hated a movie why the hell would i even talk about it that much". Ive never seen that before. Usually when somebody hates something they move on. I try bringing up positive responses to the movie randomly because it's a thread about Rises that sometimes feels bombarded by the folks who can't stand it, when i think we have the right to celebrate this movie by talking about the things we love. But instead, that doesn't last too long because the "Haters" like Milost will attack in a few minutes to derail the thread into a hatefest.

That's why i bring up the opinions. It's to balance it out a bit.

Plus i have to admit, i enjoy it when some of my favorite writers, directors or actors comment on the trilogy (especially Rises). Because it proves that it's mainly just a small percentage of hardcore fans who didnt like the ending. When Paul Thomas Anderson, Michael Uslan, Dennis O'Neill, Paul Dini, etc etc make some nice comments...the people who i personally LOVE in the business....it puts a smile on my face.

 

[Kane52630]

That's why i bring up the opinions. It's to balance it out a bit.

Sh** if I did that, then you would see me endlessly defending Avatar all the time.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Sh** if I did that, then you would see me endlessly defending Batman and Robin all the time.

Fixed.

 

[DACrowe]

Not that others' opinions will affect your own, but I think the more telling thing about TDKR, and the trilogy as a whole, is the praise it gets from other truly great filmmakers like Steven Spielberg, Sam Mendes, Paul Greengrass, Paul Thomas Anderson, and others.

I think the real value of these movies will always be that they are GREAT MOVIES. And even more important, they are great movies about their time, which gives them kind of a cultural historic value about the time they were made in, which makes them stand apart as I think many would agree that the superhero genre really took off, in part, because of post-9/11 feelings. And these movies comment on that in a clever and thoughtful way (i.e. not as tone-deaf and oblivious as Man of Steel did).

In short, for those who value movies as more than that week or month or summer's entertainment, all three (yes including Rises) have a substantial appeal that will make them stand out for years and years to come. That is more than I can say for (deep breath) Thor: The Dark World, Iron Man 3, Iron Man 2 for that matter, Captain America: The First Avenger, The Incredible Hulk, Man of Steel, The Amazing Spider-Man, The Wolverine, X-Men Origins: Wolverine, Spider-Man 3, probably the rest of the Spider-Man movies at that, Fantastic Four, Superman Returns....

I guess I am rambling, but the point is that this trilogy I think will be the most enduring set of superhero films from the last 10 years and probably the next 10 as well.

Cue a troll post about feeling it in my bones and stuff.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

Not that others' opinions will affect your own, but I think the more telling thing about TDKR, and the trilogy as a whole, is the praise it gets from other truly great filmmakers like Steven Spielberg, Sam Mendes, Paul Greengrass, Paul Thomas Anderson, and others.

I think the real value of these movies will always be that they are GREAT MOVIES. And even more important, they are great movies about their time, which gives them kind of a cultural historic value about the time they were made in, which makes them stand apart as I think many would agree that the superhero genre really took off, in part, because of post-9/11 feelings. And these movies comment on that in a clever and thoughtful way (i.e. not as tone-deaf and oblivious as Man of Steel did).

In short, for those who value movies as more than that week or month or summer's entertainment, all three (yes including Rises) have a substantial appeal that will make them stand out for years and years to come. That is more than I can say for (deep breath) Thor: The Dark World, Iron Man 3, Iron Man 2 for that matter, Captain America: The First Avenger, The Incredible Hulk, Man of Steel, The Amazing Spider-Man, The Wolverine, X-Men Origins: Wolverine, Spider-Man 3, probably the rest of the Spider-Man movies at that, Fantastic Four, Superman Returns....

I guess I am rambling, but the point is that this trilogy I think will be the most enduring set of superhero films from the last 10 years and probably the next 10 as well.

Cue a troll post about feeling it in my bones and stuff.

Great post all around.

 

[BH/HHH]

Re-watching this now, ya know I still don't think Nolan was a 100% into this one, there's some shoddy acting moments in it that I can't help feeling he'd have cared more about this kind of thing in the first two.

Not to mention aswell, he was never the best at fight scenes but in this some of it is shockingly bad, most notably in the scene where Batman saves Blake from Bane's thugs and you van just tell they're waiting to be hit by Batman.

And Bane's voice is still laughingly bad.

 

[The Shape]

Pretty sure Bane wasn't manipulated by Talia at all. She didn't trick him or "use" him without truly caring for him. Though we didn't get to see much of it, it's clear the two of them shared a special bond due to their previous troubles. And although Talia was the true heir to Ra's Al Ghul's legacy, there's nothing to indicate that Bane didn't believe in what they were doing as much as she did. Bane wasn't just doing all of these things and going through all this trouble "because she told me so". If anything, they were working in tandem based on a shared belief, with Talia taking the overall lead in terms of League of Shadows rankings.

A different interpretation of Bane, for sure, but not one that indicates he couldn't think for himself or make his own decisions.

 

[BH/HHH]

Pretty sure Bane wasn't manipulated by Talia at all. She didn't trick him or "use" him without truly caring for him. Though we didn't get to see much of it, it's clear the two of them shared a special bond due to their previous troubles. And although Talia was the true heir to Ra's Al Ghul's legacy, there's nothing to indicate that Bane didn't believe in what they were doing as much as she did. Bane wasn't just doing all of these things and going through all this trouble "because she told me so". If anything, they were working in tandem based on a shared belief, with Talia taking the overall lead in terms of League of Shadows rankings.

A different interpretation of Bane, for sure, but not one that indicates he couldn't think for himself or make his own decisions.

I agree with that

I just think for some, myself included, it takes something away for him that in the end hope's not the main villain and its not his plan. It also ruins it that its Batman doesn't really get to finish him.

Edit: and just bevause it makes me chuckle WHERE'S THE TRIGGER?

 

[shauner111]

Re-watching this now, ya know I still don't think Nolan was a 100% into this one, there's some shoddy acting moments in it that I can't help feeling he'd have cared more about this kind of thing in the first two.

Not to mention aswell, he was never the best at fight scenes but in this some of it is shockingly bad, most notably in the scene where Batman saves Blake from Bane's thugs and you van just tell they're waiting to be hit by Batman.

And Bane's voice is still laughingly bad.

That's B.S. If you watch him talk about this movie, watch him make it in documentaries, behind the scenes, he was VERY much into this one. Maybe even more. I actually think the acting was better in Rises than the other two overall. There are no extras who can't act. I thought Bale, Caine were even better than ever. I think the fighting has always been a bit of a problem for Nolan, but i think the fighting is better in Rises than Dark Knight by a mile.

Not that others' opinions will affect your own, but I think the more telling thing about TDKR, and the trilogy as a whole, is the praise it gets from other truly great filmmakers like Steven Spielberg, Sam Mendes, Paul Greengrass, Paul Thomas Anderson, and others.

I think the real value of these movies will always be that they are GREAT MOVIES. And even more important, they are great movies about their time, which gives them kind of a cultural historic value about the time they were made in, which makes them stand apart as I think many would agree that the superhero genre really took off, in part, because of post-9/11 feelings. And these movies comment on that in a clever and thoughtful way (i.e. not as tone-deaf and oblivious as Man of Steel did).

In short, for those who value movies as more than that week or month or summer's entertainment, all three (yes including Rises) have a substantial appeal that will make them stand out for years and years to come. That is more than I can say for (deep breath) Thor: The Dark World, Iron Man 3, Iron Man 2 for that matter, Captain America: The First Avenger, The Incredible Hulk, Man of Steel, The Amazing Spider-Man, The Wolverine, X-Men Origins: Wolverine, Spider-Man 3, probably the rest of the Spider-Man movies at that, Fantastic Four, Superman Returns....

I guess I am rambling, but the point is that this trilogy I think will be the most enduring set of superhero films from the last 10 years and probably the next 10 as well.

Cue a troll post about feeling it in my bones and stuff.

Nice post.

 

[BH/HHH]

That's B.S. If you watch him talk about this movie, watch him make it in documentaries, behind the scenes, he was VERY much into this one. Maybe even more. I actually think the acting was better in Rises than the other two overall. There are no extras who can't act. I thought Bale, Caine were even better than ever. I think the fighting has always been a bit of a problem for Nolan, but i think the fighting is better in Rises than Dark Knight by a mile.

Its not BS its an opinion, the quality in this film is down from the previous two. It feels rushed for me and I'll always believe had WBs not let Nolan make Inception that he wouldn't have done the third one. Shoddy performances, bad editing and certain poorly ceographed fight scenes just make me think it even more.

As for performances the newcomers Matthew Modine and Marian Cottliard were awful.

Bane with the voice is just silly for me, totally ruined what should have been a great villain.

Bale and Hatahway are great. Caine, Oldman and Freeman are a goid as ever too but they don't get as much screentime like the previous ones.

Other cast members are too underused for my liking to make way for people like Blake, which I don't like at all.

 

[shauner111]

And the reason why i say that about the fighting is because of the first fight between Bane and Batman. Which to me is the best fight of the trilogy. I think it's realistic compared to all the bulls**t fights we see elsewhere. It's like 2 heavyweights slugging it out. I can care less if it's slow. There's a lot of impact, emotion with each hit. There's a brutality. It's not flashy. It's direct. And i love it. My jaw was wide open the entire time when i saw that in theaters. So much more brutal than the CG fest that Snyder and every other hollywood director likes to put out. Where everything is so sleek, quick, nobody is out of breath...there's always lame music in the backround to enhance the scene. Here, Nolan cut out all music in favor of breathing, grunting, dialogue, and punches. No screwing around.

I remember thinking "this is different". I can just imagine if Zack had to shoot that scene...ughh.

 

[shauner111]

Its not BS its an opinion, the quality in this film is down from the previous two. It feels rushed for me and I'll always believe had WBs not let Nolan make Inception that he wouldn't have done the third one.

As for performances the newcomers Matthew Modine and Marian Cottliard were awful.

Bane with the voice is just silly for me, totally ruined what should have been a great villain.

Bale and Hatahway are great. Caine, Oldman and Freeman are a goid as ever too but they don't get as much screentime like the previous ones.

Other cast members are too underused for my liking to make way for people like Blake, which I don't like at all.

I thought Cotillard was good, just her death scene was off and that was just a bad take. I actually really enjoyed Modine and think people exaggerate when they say he was bad. He was a cliche character but i thought he pulled it off. He's a prick, he's annoying. He did just that.

 

[The Shape]

To be fair, there has been some shoddy acting across the board in Nolan's trilogy, mostly from side characters and extras.

 

[BH/HHH]

And the reason why i say that about the fighting is because of the first fight between Bane and Batman. Which to me is the best fight of the trilogy. I think it's realistic compared to all the bulls**t fights we see elsewhere. It's like 2 heavyweights slugging it out. I can care less if it's slow. There's a lot of impact, emotion with each hit. There's a brutality. It's not flashy. It's direct. And i love it. My jaw was wide open the entire time when i saw that in theaters. So much more brutal than the CG fest that Snyder and every other hollywood director likes to put out. Where everything is so sleek, quick, nobody is out of breath...there's always lame music in the backround to enhance the scene. Here, Nolan cut out all music in favor of breathing, grunting, dialogue, and punches. No screwing around.

I remember thinking "this is different". I can just imagine if Zack had to shoot that scene...ughh.

I get what you mean but it was slowly paced and in parts completely ridiculous, things like the spin around punch that Bane does or when he throws those pyro things at Bane.

Well if Snyder were to do a fight between two non super powered individuals I doubt he'd have filled it with CG.

 

[BH/HHH]

I thought Cotillard was good, just her death scene was off and that was just a bad take. I actually really enjoyed Modine and think people exaggerate when they say he was bad. He was a cliche character but i thought he pulled it off. He's a prick, he's annoying. He did just that.

Its not exaggerating though is an opinion, Modine was very hammy intact I think thats my problem with Rises more than any other I think its far more hammy than the previous two.

I just felt Cotliard was flat throughout and then even worse when she died.

Its just a shame for me that every time I re-watch this film I like it a less and less.

 

[BatLobster]

So Modine was hammy....and ALL of the mobster characters in BB and TDK weren't? Commissioner Loeb? All the random cops in TDK? The bank manager etc? Please. ("It was Ramirezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz")

Also, I thought Cotillard gave a perfectly good performance. Some of her scenes with Bruce are amongst my favorite Bruce scenes in the trilogy. I love when Bruce is pleading with her to sit on the energy project as she pleads with him to trust the world. Great dramatic stuff. She made her idealism so seductive, as opposed to Rachel's annoying lectures. Both female characters in this film were a step up from Rachel, in general.

 

[Shikamaru]

Exactly. Does everyone who says Bane isn't a lackey have to agree with Bane's creators, Graham Nolan and Chuck Dixon, because they thought Talia was the mastermind and Bane was the lackey:



http://www.newsarama.com/18171-bane-s-co-creator-returns-for-villains-month.html




http://www.gothamwdeszczu.com.pl/en/2013/07/04/interview-chuck-dixon/

I didn't know Bane's creators said that. Alright. The Heavens have spoken then.

Hehehe. I knew that would stir the pot. I also don't give a damn what people think about movies. I love plenty of things that people hate. I brought that up because this thread was a little slow in the last few days so i figured i'd change the topic a bit to what Batman's writers or celebrities feel about the movie.

Like with Chuck Dixon or Graham Nolan, i dont agree with them. But i also dont value their opinion. At least not as much as other writers who i think are much better. They can disagree with the use of Bane and Talia but it's not like they created her (Denny did and he seemed fine with the changes to Talia). Bane isn't exactly like the comics either because he's an amalgamation of other characters. Deacon Blackfire being just one of those characters.

Knightfall for example had a great concept and IMO a good first volume but then it started sucking as it went on.

And Shikamaru calm down LOL. And people say i take things too seriously? Wow.

I say purists because there are purists out there. It's obvious.

My obsession with other peoples opinions on the trilogy? It's something to talk about especially when people are constantly coming on here just to bash something. Which i find hilarious because it has literally been a constant thing with ppl. It's been out for 2 years and the haters still come to this thread to spew their hate. It just makes me think "well, if i hated a movie why the hell would i even talk about it that much". Ive never seen that before. Usually when somebody hates something they move on. I try bringing up positive responses to the movie randomly because it's a thread about Rises that sometimes feels bombarded by the folks who can't stand it, when i think we have the right to celebrate this movie by talking about the things we love. But instead, that doesn't last too long because the "Haters" like Milost will attack in a few minutes to derail the thread into a hatefest.

That's why i bring up the opinions. It's to balance it out a bit.

Plus i have to admit, i enjoy it when some of my favorite writers, directors or actors comment on the trilogy (especially Rises). Because it proves that it's mainly just a small percentage of hardcore fans who didnt like the ending. When Paul Thomas Anderson, Michael Uslan, Dennis O'Neill, Paul Dini, etc etc make some nice comments...the people who i personally LOVE in the business....it puts a smile on my face.

Calm down? That would imply I am angry in the first place, which I am not. I don't see any signs in my post that I "take things too seriously". There are no emoticons, no all caps, no exclamation marks, etc. But if you want to interpret a bunch of plain old text that way, sure.

Sorry if this offends you, but you clearly do care about what other people think. It's not like this is only time you brought up what other writers think. You have a track record of consistently bringing up what other people thought of TDKR, even in threads that have nothing to do with Batman (i.e. the JL speculation thread). On average, You have used more "angry internet language" for lack of better term (things like emoticons, all caps, exclamations marks) than anyone else here (except for maybe milost). You've resorted to purely emotional arguments before, an example being the time you somehow interpreted the claim that TDKR's ending goes against Batman's essence as me thinking I'm better than everyone huh. Most importantly, you have a very militant black-and-white view of TDKR's "haters". Anyone who takes issues with TDKR is a hater and everyone not in agreement with the ending is a purist who can't accept different interpretations of Batman. Your most recent response BH/HHH only further proves my point. The guy just casually states "I don't think Nolan gave his 100% into this, that's just the feeling I have" and your immediate response is to get in Penn Jillette mode and call BS off the top of your lungs. So yeah, I think you take things too seriously. If you aren't, that's just the impression you're giving off.

As for why people like me still talk about TDKR today, it's simple. It's because it is an open forum and anyone can freely comment here, both people who liked and disliked the movie. You know my reason though? I've stated it before: It's because of you guys. I like the discussions I have here with (most of) you specifically. Almost every post I read here gives me something to think about regardless of whether I completely agree or completely disagree with said post. It doesn't even have to be something related to Batman; just something to think about in general. But it's just so much easier to jump to ad hominems, right?

As for this thread being "bombarded by haters", I don't see that. The numbers are about even on each side - me, milost, Joker, BH/HHH, etc. vs. BLR, you, DACrowe, theShape, etc.

 

[BH/HHH]

So Modine was hammy....and ALL of the mobster characters in BB and TDK weren't? Commissioner Loeb? All the random cops in TDK? The bank manager etc? Please. ("It was Ramirezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz")

Also, I thought Cotillard gave a perfectly good performance. Some of her scenes with Bruce are amongst my favorite Bruce scenes in the trilogy. I love when Bruce is pleading with her to sit on the project as she pleads with him to trust the world. Great dramatic stuff. She made her idealism so seductive, as opposed to Rachel's annoying lectures. Both female characters in this film were a step up from Rachel, in general.

I'm not saying there weren't any hammy performances in the first two but I don't think any were as hammy as Modine.

Agree to disagree, I thought Cotilard phoned it in, Katie Holmes wasn't the best but Maggie G was great in the Dark Knight.

Just agree to disagree I think Rises is the worst of the trilogy but still the best third film in a superhero franchise.

 

[shauner111]

I get what you mean but it was slowly paced and in parts completely ridiculous, things like the spin around punch that Bane does or when he throws those pyro things at Bane.

Well if Snyder were to do a fight between two non super powered individuals I doubt he'd have filled it with CG.

The spin punch was fantastic IMO.

Maybe not CG but i also meant that he would probably fill it with music (probably bad metal or some unnecessary Zimmer music).

So Modine was hammy....and ALL of the mobster characters in BB and TDK weren't? Commissioner Loeb? All the random cops in TDK? The bank manager etc? Please. ("It was Ramirezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz")

Also, I thought Cotillard gave a perfectly good performance. Some of her scenes with Bruce are amongst my favorite Bruce scenes in the trilogy. I love when Bruce is pleading with her to sit on the energy project as she pleads with him to trust the world. Great dramatic stuff. She made her idealism so seductive, as opposed to Rachel's annoying lectures. Both female characters in this film were a step up from Rachel, in general.

OMG hahaha. How could anyone say that Rises had bad acting or hammy performances when the first two movies were full of them when it came to the side characters.

Yeah Cotillard was great as usual. It's just that death scene. Her reveal scene especially, that was really good.