The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - Part 154

[The Shape]

I'm less interested in them fighting each other than I am to see them fight together.

 

[BatLobster]

Strange that you'd prefer Superman to be pissed to the point of trying to murder Batman -- exactly the kind of Superman characterization most people want this film to steer away from.

Also, I'm sorry to hear you are dreading the finale. It seems to be something many people are looking forward to and have only dreamed about up until now -- Superman and Batman fighting side-by-side for the first time, with Wonder Woman in tow.

Although I am a solo Batman guy above all, it's not the situation I'm dreading so much as a nonstop destruction-fest for a finale with human actors being swapped out for their CG doubles excessively. It completely numbed me out in MoS, and introducing more characters into the mix is only going to make it more over the top. One thing I loved about TDK was how it actually went smaller than Begins for its finale, yet it felt much bigger.

It also seems like from a story standpoint, holding off on seeing Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman fight side by side would be a huge selling point for Justice League. I do appreciate them trying to give you the most bang for your buck with this movie, I just don't want to be numbed out by the time its all over. The problem with Snyder trying to make everything "awesome" is eventually "awesome" starts to lose its potency. That's why I felt like I just didn't care by the end of Man of Steel. I'm not one of those people who cared about the number of civilian casualties and Superman not saving people/killing Zod...it's just that the movie made me feel absolutely no emotional investment. The killing of Zod was actually the best part of the whole thing to me.

Like I said though, at least I know what to expect this time. With Man of Steel I went in hoping to see actual growth from Snyder.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

And then they both take Lois to Paris to see the Eiffel Tower.

Meh. Wonder Woman and Bats takes Lois to the Eiffel Tower. Superman can watch.

 

[shauner111]

I agree with Batlobster. I don't mind the Trinity teaming up, but when it's in the hands of Snyder + Doomsday...i fear the destruction/CG. This has me worried for all the action in Justice League. 7 members fighting all at once, and you can tell it's CG versions of the Flash, Batman, Aquaman etc.

I feel like Snyder is still a kid in a grown mans body. DC fanboys are foaming at the mouth in excitement because they've never seen their heroes that way. I, on the other hand, see why they would be excited but it's not really for me. The movies today feel a lot like the video games of today. And i haven't played too many since i was a kid so im never too impressed.

One thing i dont agree with, is Superman trying to kill Batman like that. That means the character has not grown, learnt from his mistakes in MOS. I would hate that so hopefully it's Doomsday trying to burn Batman to pieces.

 

[Vulture]

I agree with Batlobster. I don't mind the Trinity teaming up, but when it's in the hands of Snyder + Doomsday...i fear the destruction/CG. This has me worried for all the action in Justice League. 7 members fighting all at once, and you can tell it's CG versions of the Flash, Batman, Aquaman etc.

I feel like Snyder is still a kid in a grown mans body. DC fanboys are foaming at the mouth in excitement because they've never seen their heroes that way. I, on the other hand, see why they would be excited but it's not really for me. The movies today feel a lot like the video games of today. And i haven't played too many since i was a kid so im never too impressed.

One thing i dont agree with, is Superman trying to kill Batman like that. That means the character has not grown, learnt from his mistakes in MOS. I would hate that so hopefully it's Doomsday trying to burn Batman to pieces.

If you really don´t like that, you´re better off staying away from this movie, because i see absolutely 0 chance that it won´t have tons and tons and tons of action, explosions and CGI.

 

[Snow Queen]

Indeed. One of many reasons why I stopped watching the show. I bet the awful Barbara is still in it, too.

She is. They had her [BLACKOUT]go with some 50 Shades of Grey parody killer, like right down to mimicking shots from the movie, and then go nuts and try to murder Leslie Thompkins.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Shikamaru]

I feel like Snyder is still a kid in a grown mans body. DC fanboys are foaming at the mouth in excitement because they've never seen their heroes that way. I, on the other hand, see why they would be excited but it's not really for me. The movies today feel a lot like the video games of today. And i haven't played too many since i was a kid so im never too impressed.

I agree with this. I get the sense Snyder bases his creative decisions more on what's "cool" than actually thinking them through.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I feel like Snyder is still a kid in a grown mans body.

More like a teen in a man's body. Look how much he boasts about being serious and deep while being as thin as the marvel films he looks down on. Teens do that.

 

[BatLobster]

One thing i dont agree with, is Superman trying to kill Batman like that. That means the character has not grown, learnt from his mistakes in MOS. I would hate that so hopefully it's Doomsday trying to burn Batman to pieces.

Yeah, to be fair I'm well-aware that would be a pretty poor Superman characterization, especially coming off Man of Steel. It's not that I want that to be the case, but I also dislike the idea of Batman seeming like a totally misguided aggressor against Superman, manipulated by Lex for most of the movie. Especially because it does seem like Batman wants to take out Superman ("We have to destroy him"). Could be more misleading editing, but again...I'm only going by how the trailer is trying to sell the conflict to us at this point.

I kind of like the notion of Batman and Superman both getting completely out of hand as things escalate in the movie, with Wonder Woman having to slap some sense into both of them. I think it should be raw and emotional between Bats and Supes, not just philosophical. Superman crossing the line a bit would help justify Batman continuing to think of him as the enemy. After all, it'd be understandable for Supes to be angry and lose control. He keeps trying to do the right thing and the world keeps trying to reject him. I could see his frustration culminating when Batman goes after him. Maybe I'm just not as strict about how I think Superman should be characterized. He's still relatively new at it, anyway.

 

[The Shape]

Whether that's true or not, I'm liking many of the creative decisions he seems to be making with this film.

 

[Vulture]

I agree with this. I get the sense Snyder bases his creative decisions more on what's "cool" than actually thinking them through.

He does what pretty much everyone else aside from Nolan does with superhero movies nowadays. A lot of CGI, a lot of fireworks, a lot of actions scenes. It´s not like that he invented it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I agree with this. I get the sense Snyder bases his creative decisions more on what's "cool" than actually thinking them through.

Yes. Like the scene where Jor EL beats the hell out of Zod. Even though Zod is genetically engineered to be a soldier, on top of being a general, while Jor is bred to be a scientist.

But it looked kool right? So screw logic.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

He does what pretty much everyone else aside from Nolan does with superhero movies nowadays. A lot of CGI, a lot of fireworks, a lot of actions scenes. It´s not like that he invented it.

Aside from Brian Singer, Joss Whedon, the Russo Bros., James Gunn, ie most people who have made superhero films recently.

 

[BatLobster]

To be be fair, both Winter Soldier and Guardians had big CGI heavy finales that were the weak points of both films for me.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

To be be fair, both Winter Soldier and Guardians had big CGI heavy finales that were the weak points of both films for me.

they are not mind numbing like MOS though. Both climaxes still had a sense of emotional grounded-ness.

 

[Snow Queen]

I'd actually put Whedon as one of the ones who do that, personally. He's made two of Marvel's weakest outings. Winter Soldier and Guardians also had pretty weak climaxes, Guardians' practically put me to sleep.

 

[BatLobster]

Also fair. I guess there is something of a cumulative numbing effect with all of these movies. That's why when something like Fury Road or Star Wars goes more practical, it's really exhilarating for audiences.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

You think the Avengers is weaker than Iron Man 2, thor 2, Thor 1, and Cap 1?

 

[Snow Queen]

You think the Avengers is weaker than Iron Man 2, thor 2, Thor 1, and Cap 1?

Yep. While Iron Man 2 and Thor 2 are messes and Thor 1 and Cap 1 are decent but not really anything special (though I give Thor credit for a really well done explosion-free climax), they don't make me as irritated watching them as Avengers does. I'd really put that one right at the bottom of their films.

 

[BatLobster]

they are not mind numbing like MOS though. Both climaxes still had a sense of emotional grounded-ness.

Also fair. I guess there is something of a cumulative numbing effect with all of these movies. That's why when something like Fury Road or Star Wars goes more practical, it's really exhilarating and fresh for audiences.

I'd actually put Whedon as one of the ones who do that, personally. He's made two of Marvel's weakest outings. Winter Soldier and Guardians also had pretty weak climaxes, Guardians' practically put me to sleep.

I have to agree that the Guardians climax especially was pretty dull. However I think both movies were able to get away with it more by being very engaging up to that point, so you at least cared about the characters and story.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Also fair. I guess there is something of a cumulative numbing effect with all of these movies. That's why when something like Fury Road or Star Wars goes more practical, it's really exhilarating for audiences.

The problem is that most of these directors can't stop CGI from feeling weightless. You don't believe in the reality of what you are seeing. The only film where I believed the unreality of what I was seeing as real was Avatar.

However, most of these directors are smart enough to go around the issue of weightlessness and unrealism by having you invested in the characters. The guardians were sympathetic, the Avengers finally assembling was rewarding, Cap finally getting through to Bucky was uplifting. But none of that occurred in MOS. Supes' character, whether it was the actor, director or writer, was thoroughly opaque. In the end it was like watching someone else play a video game for 45 minutes.

 

[Shikamaru]

Supposedly one of the first things Snyder said during the post-MOS brainstorming process was "wouldn't it be cool if he now fought Batman?". Well yeah, it would be cool, but there are far more factors that should be taken in account besides that (whether or not it makes sense, if it's too early, if it's redundant, etc.).

Then there's Watchmen, which he said he wanted to adapt because "it was awesome". Nevermind it was always called "the unfilmable graphic novel", as it was one of those stories where you had to take your time with each panel to fully understand its brilliance. It's arguably the best literal translation of the book we could get, but that's part of the problem. I watched it with my parents and they couldn't understand a single thing that was going on. Not to mention, as Joss Whedon pointed out, why do it so early? The book was a commentary on 40 years of comic book history. The film was meant to be more of a commentary on CBM's, except there were barely any successful franchises in the 2000's. The genre literally just took off (keep in mind, Watchmen's production also started before Iron Man and TDK became the successes they were). Wouldn't it have made more sense to, say, do it in the late 2010's? By then we would have tried almost everything with superheroes on screen, and it would have made more sense commentary-wise.

Then there's 300. I actually love this film, but it's almost by accident on Snyder's part. Miller intended for the book to be a campfire story about the Spartans, not a literal historical representation of the events. But unless you did some research yourself, you wouldn't know that going in, especially if you only payed attention to the interviews with Snyder where he said the film is 90% historically accurate.

I know it sounds like we're beating a dead horse to those hyped by BvS, but there's just no way around it. These films don't exist in a vacuum; people take into account every factor before viewing a piece. Doesn't mean their opinions can't change when coming out of the theatre, but it's completely rational to not pretend as if Snyder directing is "no big deal" when going in. And it's by no means something reserved only to DC's films (case in point, the Edgar Wright fiasco and how that's affecting Ant-Man's reviews).

 

[Vulture]

Yes. Like the scene where Jor EL beats the hell out of Zod. Even though Zod is genetically engineered to be a soldier, on top of being a general, while Jor is bred to be a scientist.

But it looked kool right? So screw logic.

I think what the movie wanted to transmit with the whole "engineered to be a soldier"(was this really the term used?) thing wasn´t really that only a soldier can fight and a scientist could only be a scientist and nothing else, but that his career(military) was chosen right from his birth. Over many centuries this happened in our world too. Certain families dedicated themselves to one specific activity. Even today that happens in some places.

Jor El beating Zod, to me, was a way of showing us how special and knowledgeable he was. He was no ordinary man. He was a man of many skills. Even his scientific knowledge was very diversified. And fighting is a science too.

Zod was, ultimately, not as good as he thought he was. This is something that the movie literally showed us. That´s why he was defeated two times by two men who didn´t even come from warrior lines. Arrogance sometimes clouds the mind and stops you from seeing things as they really are.

It´s also important to point out the fact that the movie never went into much detail regarding what it means to be a "soldier" or a "scientist" on Krypton. If you are a scientist, does it mean you can´t learn how to defend yourself? If you´re a soldier, does it mean you will defeat anyone who isn´t? Those details were never made clear, so it´s difficult to draw a conclusion from that.

Well, i said "those deteails were never made clear", but the fact is that, in a way, they were. The movie showed us that a scientist could learn how to fight. The problem is that some people need words in order to accept things. They need something like "we scientists can fight to". To them, visual information is not enough.

 

[BatLobster]

The problem is that most of these directors can't stop CGI from feeling weightless. You don't believe in the reality of what you are seeing. The only film where I believed the unreality of what I was seeing as real was Avatar.

However, most of these directors are smart enough to go around the issue of weightlessness and unrealism by having you invested in the characters. The guardians were sympathetic, the Avengers finally assembling was rewarding, Cap finally getting through to Bucky was uplifting. But none of that occurred in MOS. Supes' character, whether it was the actor, director or writer, was thoroughly opaque. In the end it was like watching someone else play a video game for 45 minutes.

Agreed.

Supposedly one of the first things Snyder said during the post-MOS brainstorming process was "wouldn't it be cool if he now fought Batman?". Well yeah, it would be cool, but there are far more factors that should be taken in account besides that (whether or not it makes sense, if it's too early, if it's redundant, etc.).

Then there's Watchmen, which he said he wanted to adapt because "it was awesome". Nevermind it was always called "the unfilmable graphic novel", as it was one of those stories where you had to take your time with each panel to fully understand its brilliance. It's arguably the best literal translation of the book we could get, but that's part of the problem. I watched it with my parents and they couldn't understand a single thing that was going on. Not to mention, as Joss Whedon pointed out, why do it so early? The book was a commentary on 40 years of comic book history. The film was meant to be more of a commentary on CBM's, except there were barely any successful franchises in the 2000's. The genre literally just took off (keep in mind, Watchmen's production also started before Iron Man and TDK became the successes they were). Wouldn't it have made more sense to, say, do it in the late 2010's? By then we would have tried almost everything with superheroes on screen, and it would have made more sense commentary-wise.

Then there's 300. I actually love this film, but it's almost by accident on Snyder's part. Miller intended for the book to be a campfire story about the Spartans, not a literal historical representation of the events. But unless you did some research yourself, you wouldn't know that going in, especially if you only payed attention to the interviews with Snyder where he said the film is 90% historically accurate.

I know it sounds like we're beating a dead horse to those hyped by BvS, but there's just no way around it. These films don't exist in a vacuum; people take into account every factor before viewing a piece. Doesn't mean their opinions can't change when coming out of the theatre, but it's completely rational to not pretend as if Snyder directing is "no big deal" when going in. And it's by no means something reserved only to DC's films (case in point, the Edgar Wright fiasco and how that's affecting Ant-Man's reviews).

Good post Shika. That's the thing. I'm all for going into a theater with an open mind, and I'm usually pretty good about that (I just went into Terminator Genysis with an open mind...'nuff said), but for some of us it's just difficult to get past the fact that Snyder is at the helm. He has a long enough track record now that everyone kind of knows where they stand on him, and what his tendencies are. Just like any director who's been at it for a while. I raised an eyebrow when he was announced for Man of Steel, and then spent the next couple of years slowly allowing myself to believe that he was going to be able to deliver something of a caliber we hadn't seen before from him. For me a lot of my reservations are very much coming from a place of "fool me once...".

 

[redfirebird2008]

I'd actually put Whedon as one of the ones who do that, personally. He's made two of Marvel's weakest outings. Winter Soldier and Guardians also had pretty weak climaxes, Guardians' practically put me to sleep.

Other than Groot, I don't remember anything else about the end of Guardians. End of Winter Solder is a ridiculous CGI fest after a great first 2/3rds involving the Hydra conspiracy.

One of the best thing that could happen for fans of these characters is if the genre as a whole loses some of its box office power and the studios are forced to cut down the budgets and stop using the same CGI, "epic action" formula to try to make money. At least with smaller budgets the filmmakers would be forced to deliver more interesting stories.