The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - Part 154

Status
Not open for further replies.
or El beating Zod, to me, was a way of showing us how special and knowledgeable he was. He was no ordinary man. He was a man of many skills. Even his scientific knowledge was very diversified.

He was a man of science. Why would he need to master the arts of battle? Isn't that what the soldiers are bred for?

Zod was, ultimately, not as good as he thought he was. This is something that the movie literally showed us. That´s why he was defeated two times by two men who didn´t even come from warrior lines. Arrogance sometimes clouds the mind and stops you from seeing things as they really are.

Why would he ever think he was good if he got beat by freaking Jor El? It would make more sense to establish Zod's skill and arrogance by beating Jor El thoroughly. It would also make Kal's victory over him more rewarding.

And fighting is a science too.

So Zod knew science as well as Jor El too?

It´s also important to point out the fact that the movie never went into much detail regarding what it means to be a "soldier" or a "scientist" on Krypton. If you are a scientist, does it mean you can´t learn how to defend yourself? .

The problem isn't about defending yourself. The problem is Jor El defeating the supreme general of the army in hand to hand combat. It would be absurd even if he wasn't bred to be a warrior.

If you´re a soldier, does it mean you will defeat anyone who isn´t?

In hand to hand combat against a pudgy scientist? And I have genetic advantage over him? Hell to the yeah.

Those details were never made clear, so it´s difficult to draw a conclusion from that

True. the prologue was simultaneously overstuffed while being underdeveloped.

Well, i said "those deteails were never made clear", but the fact is that, in a way, they were. The movie showed us that a scientist could learn how to fight.

What? the movie never showed us that a scientist could learn to fight. Jor El was already good at fighting. Are you referring to someone else? The Earth scientist? But he went out like a ***** in the aircraft.

The problem is that some people need words in order to accept things. They need something like "we scientists can fight to".

Zack Sndyer? the movie talks and talks about how Superman will give us hope. Yet visually it never ever comes to pass.

To them, visual information is not enough.

Agreed. That's why people have to resort to making stuff up. Like making up how scientists are shown how they could learn how to fight.
 
She is. They had her [BLACKOUT]go with some 50 Shades of Grey parody killer, like right down to mimicking shots from the movie, and then go nuts and try to murder Leslie Thompkins.[/BLACKOUT]

[BLACKOUT]Well I suppose the silver lining there is he might kill her lol.[/BLACKOUT]
 
He was a man of science. Why would he need to master the arts of battle? Isn't that what the soldiers are bred for?



Why would he ever think he was good if he got beat by freaking Jor El? It would make more sense to establish Zod's skill and arrogance by beating Jor El thoroughly. It would also make Kal's victory over him more rewarding.

That´s your opinion. I don´t agree with it. I can see plenty of reasons to why Jor-El would learn how to fight. Why do people that aren´t soldiers learn martial arts? You have your answer there.


Why would he ever think he was good if he got beat by freaking Jor El? It would make more sense to establish Zod's skill and arrogance by beating Jor El thoroughly. It would also make Kal's victory over him more rewarding.

He is a military leader. Probably his confidence came from that simple fact.

So Zod knew science as well as Jor El too?

It´s made very clear that Zod also has scientific and technological knowledge. I´m not a fisherman, but i know how to fish. There´s no mystery here.

The problem isn't about defending yourself. The problem is Jor El defeating the supreme general of the army in hand to hand combat. It would be absurd even if he wasn't bred to be a warrior.

Soldiers are generally better with weapons and strategy than hand 2 hand combat. Plenty of civilians would beat "military leaders" in hand 2 hand combat, so the idea that Jor-El could do it too is really not that far fetched.


In hand to hand combat against a pudgy scientist? And I have genetic advantage over him? Hell to the yeah.

Given that martial arts are more about technical knowledge than physical attributes, a pudgy scientist could definitely beat someone with superior physical genetics. Again, the movie gives you an answer for that. Jor-El knew how to fight and he was good at it. Intelligence can strongly help you to assimilate different types of skills more easily.

In fighting, when your opponent is much better than you would expect, that can actually catch you by surprise and make you performe worse than you would otherwise. This happens all the time in fighting competitions. The guy who is supposedly specialist in one area gets outskilled in that same area by someone who isn´t. This is reality one on one.

There´s nothing unrealistic about any of these scenarios. Good call by Snyder here. It´s not his fault that not everybody understands how fighting and human/mind body works.

What? the movie never showed us that a scientist could learn to fight. Jor El was already good at fighting. Are you referring to someone else? The Earth scientist? But he went out like a ***** in the aircraft.

If we saw him fighting, is it fair to conclude that he learned how to fight? Seems like a pretty obvious and logical process to me. Unless you´re suggesting he was born with martial arts skills.

Zack Sndyer? the movie talks and talks about how Superman will give us hope. Yet visually it never ever comes to pass.

"They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall but in time they´ll join you..."

Jor El words. Jor El predicted it wouldn´t happen right away, and that´s what we´re gonna see now in BvS. Not everybody accepts him, not everybody fully understands him. It´s a process. Nothing in Man of Steel negated the idea that he will give hope to people, since it was made pretty clear that he wouldn´t be accepted from the get go. Jor El and Pa Kent talked about that.
 
If you really don´t like that, you´re better off staying away from this movie, because i see absolutely 0 chance that it won´t have tons and tons and tons of action, explosions and CGI.
True but i can't help it, it's Batman. Maybe i shouldn't fear it, but expect that going in. It's cool in the moment when im hyped up, watching it for the first time in a cinema. It usually makes me tired or numb when i see it a second or third time.

More like a teen in a man's body. Look how much he boasts about being serious and deep while being as thin as the marvel films he looks down on. Teens do that.
A teen is still a kid. To me.

Yes. Like the scene where Jor EL beats the hell out of Zod. Even though Zod is genetically engineered to be a soldier, on top of being a general, while Jor is bred to be a scientist.

But it looked kool right? So screw logic.
It did look cool, i liked the punches. But it didn't make too much sense. It was like Zack said "We have friggin Russell Crowe guys! We gotta make him do badass things! This ain't yo grandpappies Jor-El! Russell Crowe is the friggin Gladiator! He's awesome!"

To be be fair, both Winter Soldier and Guardians had big CGI heavy finales that were the weak points of both films for me.
Yeah seriously. Both were incredibly fun movies last year. Some of Marvel's best. But the stuff with Falcon, Cap, the destruction..

Geez, i sound exhausted from destruction and buildings or planes crashing down in superhero movies. I think it's because i am. Superhero films don't NEED to be disaster movies. And not to blow Nolan off again but Rises was marketed as a disaster movie, kinda, but it wasn't executed that way. Bridges fell but there wasn't the typical "giant buildings fall down like 9/11 and people run away screaming". It's used way too much now.

I can hardly wait for Independence Day 2 :whatever:

Oh and Ultron felt like Man Of Steels final act at times.
 
Shika made a great point about Watchmen. 5 years from now would have been the perfect time to adapt it.

I dont remember a thing about the end of Guardians either, which is weird. Funny movie though.
 
To be fair though, hindsight is 20/20. Towards the end of the last decade, it already felt like there had been a LOT of superhero movies (cause there had been). People were talking about burnout even back then. There was no way to predict that Marvel was going to explode into the giant it's now become with every studio trying to recapture their success.
 
Little did they know :hehe:

Watchmen is fine but nothing spectacular. I also watched it with people who had no idea what was happening.
 
That´s your opinion. I don´t agree with it. I can see plenty of reasons to why Jor-El would learn how to fight.

I don't see any reasons. He serves his purpose. The soldiers theirs.

Why do people that aren´t soldiers learn martial arts?
Because our planet isn't genetically heaved in that way.

You have your answer there
I know.

He is a military leader. Probably his confidence came from that simple fact.

He is a military leader. If he is so overconfident as to be losing to a genetically bred scientist, he is a **** military leader.

Why is his army still following this idiot? Can't even beat a fatass with a genetic advantage.

It´s made very clear that Zod also has scientific and technological knowledge. I´m not a fisherman, but i know how to fish. There´s no mystery here.

We are not genetically specialized to do particular tasks. Stop drawing comparisons to us. It betrays the crux of the argument.

oldiers are generally better with weapons and strategy than hand 2 hand combat. Plenty of civilians would beat "military leaders" in hand 2 hand combat, so the idea that Jor-El could do it too is really not that far fetched.



A genetically bred scientist beating a genetically bred soldier military commander is still a huge stretch.

Given that martial arts are more about technical knowledge than physical attributes, a pudgy scientist could definitely beat someone with superior physical genetics
:funny:

This isn't the Matrix. Technical knowledge means nothing if you can't apply it physically.

gain, the movie gives you an answer for that. Jor-El knew how to fight and he was good at it.

ANd it's a huge chink in the nature vs nurture theme this film is going for.


There´s nothing unrealistic about any of these scenarios. Good call by Snyder here. It´s not his fault that not everybody understands how fighting and human/mind body works

Lucky Zack Snyder. There are people who will go to galactic lengths to defend his abandonment of themes for cheap thrills.

If we saw him fighting, is it fair to conclude that he learned how to fight?

Exactlty. He didn't learn to fight in the film. Which is what you claimed.

Jor El words. Jor El predicted it wouldn´t happen right away, and that´s what we´re gonna see now in BvS.

Just because a sequel that wasn't even planned when MOS was being made fulfills the meaning of those lines do not mean they retroactively fix MOS.
 
If I see someone doing something in a film that they had not done previously, I assume that they learned how and it was done off screen to save screentime.
 
Only just come across this old interview of Kevin Conroy and came across this bit where he talks about Bale. I know he slagged off Bale at Comic-Con a year later after this interview which I always found strange, especially when said actor was still playing the role and developing his own idea of Batman on screen. But wow, Conroy REALLY didn't like the voice:

[YT]/watch?v=EBCjVYmV_JM[/YT]
 
Because our planet isn't genetically heaved in that way.

Actually, there are many families in which its members share superior genetic attributes and follow very similar lifestyles. For example: Jon Jones and his brothers are all athletically gifted and compete at the highest level in their respective sports. They´re all world class competitors. The Gracie brothers were all raised to be Jiu Jitsu fighters.But guess what: Some of them are pretty good at other things too, and they´ve also been beaten by people who had pretty normal lifestyles growing up.

In Japan, they had warrior families. If you were born in a Samurai family, you were supposed to grow up to be a Samurai and you would train martial arts since a very early age. But peasants, who weren´t born in Samurai families also trained Martial Arts, so they could defend themselves from the Samurai.

Chinese Monks, who were all about peace, also trained martial arts. And now you´re telling me that a scientist could only be a scientist and nothing else? That´s absurd.

The idea that one Kryptonian could only be good at ONE THING and wouldn´t be able to master anything else is absolutely ridiculous and would make them an inferior race. Plus, that´s not specified anywhere in the movie. All we know is that each child´s destiny his chosen right from the start. Zod was raised to be a soldier. Jor-El was raised to be a scientist. But i don´t recall being told that they couldn´t learn new skills.

He is a military leader. If he is so overconfident as to be losing to a genetically bred scientist, he is a **** military leader.

Why is his army still following this idiot? Can't even beat a fatass with a genetic advantage.

1- Being a good military leader is much more than being a good martial artist. Most military leaders aren´t high level fighters. And i know this for a fact, because i´ve known a bunch of them in my time. Most of them have very basic hand 2 hand skills and would easily lose to any regular kid that takes his jiu jitsu classes seriously.

2- Have you ever been to the military? I think if a General loses a fist fight against a scientist, his soldiers won´t stop following his orders. :whatever:

We are not genetically specialized to do particular tasks. Stop drawing comparisons to us. It betrays the crux of the argument.

We have genetic predispositions too. A genetic predisposition means you will have an easier time learning a certain skill. It doesn´t mean you can only learn that one skill.

A genetically bred scientist beating a genetically bred soldier military commander is still a huge stretch.

No, it isn´t. A genetic predisposition is not a skill, and being a soldier isn´t a guarantee of having extensive hand 2 hand training.

It´s very possible that Kryptonians also had access to martial arts, like we do. It´s very possible that they had sports, competitions, and could become good at them, like a scientist can become a Karate champion in our world.

The problem here is that you´re trying to be very specific. You´re approaching the subject like if you had an extensive knowledge on how Kryptonian society worked, but you don´t. The information we were given is very limited, so we can´t really rule out any possibility. If Jor-El was able to beat him, that´s because he obviously had access to martial arts training and was very good at it. That, by itself, tells us that things didn´t work like you claim they did.

This isn't the Matrix. Technical knowledge means nothing if you can't apply it physically.

You don´t need to be extremely athletically gifted to apply a martial arts technique. And being pudgy isn´t synonymous with being physically incapable. Some of the greatest fighters of all time were pudgy. And the greatest of them all was pudget too. And smaller than most of his opponents. If you wanna see a pudgy guy beating someone who looks like a Greek God, you just have to search it on youtube. There are thousands of examples.

We came to a point where i will have to advise you to stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about. You either know something, or you don´t. In this case, you don´t, so you should just stop. Take this as a friendly advice, because you´re starting to come off as someone who is simply trolling.
 
Last edited:
To be fair though, hindsight is 20/20. Towards the end of the last decade, it already felt like there had been a LOT of superhero movies (cause there had been). People were talking about burnout even back then. There was no way to predict that Marvel was going to explode into the giant it's now become with every studio trying to recapture their success.

According to Wikipedia, there are 8 superhero movies scheduled for each of 2016 and 2017. That's 16 freaking movies in 2 years. Genre is on the verge of over-saturation, especially since they keep following the same formula for all of these movies.
 
Only just come across this old interview of Kevin Conroy and came across this bit where he talks about Bale. I know he slagged off Bale at Comic-Con a year later after this interview which I always found strange, especially when said actor was still playing the role and developing his own idea of Batman on screen. But wow, Conroy REALLY didn't like the voice:

[YT]/watch?v=EBCjVYmV_JM[/YT]

Completely agree with Conroy. I've said for years the "need a throat lozenge" voice would be the one thing Nolan and Bale really regret about these movies in the future.

It was already really bad to begin with, but time is only going to make it seem worse. BB wasn't even that bad. It's the sequels where they put the throat lozenge voice on steroids.
 
Completely agree with Conroy. I've said for years the "need a throat lozenge" voice would be the one thing Nolan and Bale really regret about these movies in the future.

It was already really bad to begin with, but time is only going to make it seem worse. BB wasn't even that bad. It's the sequels where they put the throat lozenge voice on steroids.

I don't know, if Nolan/Bale ever had any second thoughts about the way the voice was approached it would've been on the set of the films. Bale himself said when being interviewed for one of his 2013 movies that the voice he did 'wasn't for everyone'. He's an actor who doesn't seem to take any half measures, likewise Nolan as a director. Also I thought the BB voice was perfection, the best live action Batman voice to date at that time. TDK voice I didn't like quite as much but not nearly to the point where I went OMG this is the worst thing evah!'. Bale had taken the leap of faith with BB. TDK voice was tweaked for better or worse. I genuinely did like the voice.
 
I've said for years the "need a throat lozenge" voice would be the one thing Nolan and Bale really regret about these movies in the future.

I don't think they will. I don't think they even cared at all since 4 years later Nolan went and put it in TDKR despite the complaints about it in TDK. It certainly didn't hurt the success of the movies either. So I doubt they'll ever care about it.
 
In TDK/Rs, I hate the voice and the suit. It was a HUGE departure from what they did in BB.
 
In TDK/Rs, I hate the voice and the suit. It was a HUGE departure from what they did in BB.

Agreed on the suit as well. The BB is much better than the sequels. All they needed to do IMHO was make it a bit sleeker for the sequels. The puzzle piece appearance is not good. :csad:
 
Batman Begins suit was perfect for me. What bothered me the most about the suit from the sequels was the neck.Too thin. In Begins the neck is large and muscular. Makes him look like a beast. Very intimidating. His voice in Begins was perfect too.
 
He looked incredible as the Bat demon in Scarecrow's hallucination. That bigger suit and neck helped make that scene even better than it would have been with the TDK/TDKR suit.
 
This is a little bit off-topic, but while watching the Superman Lives documentary i learned that, in the 89 film, Batman was supposed to say: "I´m Batman, mother*****er".

I think if Batman was real he would drop F bombs all the time. Too bad we don´t get to see it on film.
 
I thought he looked physically imposing even with the slimmer TDK/R suit. Not so much against Bane obviously (I think they made Hardy wear heightened shoes or something). But when he's throwing The Joker around in the interrogation scene, that was Bale. The only times times where I thought his voice became really OTT in TDK was with the opening 'I'm not wearing hockey pads!' line and towards the end where Batman is panting after having travelled half way across the city, got attacked by The Joker and his dogs and then choked by The Joker. Oh and saving the hostages beforehand.

People IMO grossly exaggerate the 'awfulness' of Bale's TDK/R. At most I'd say it was inconsistent like where he'd have to get REALLY emotional (BW's voice shone through when Talia stabs him) as well as the infamous 'Wheres the triggur?' line.

But he easily got back on track with the underrated comeback line 'Tell me where the trigger is, THEN you have my permission to DIE!'.
 
I thought he looked physically imposing even with the slimmer TDK/R suit. Not so much against Bane obviously (I think they made Hardy wear heightened shoes or something). But when he's throwing The Joker around in the interrogation scene, that was Bale. The only times times where I thought his voice became really OTT in TDK was with the opening 'I'm not wearing hockey pads!' line and towards the end where Batman is panting after having travelled half way across the city, got attacked by The Joker and his dogs and then choked by The Joker. Oh and saving the hostages beforehand.

People IMO grossly exaggerate the 'awfulness' of Bale's TDK/R. At most I'd say it was inconsistent like where he'd have to get REALLY emotional (BW's voice shone through when Talia stabs him) as well as the infamous 'Wheres the triggur?' line.

But he easily got back on track with the underrated comeback line 'Tell me where the trigger is, THEN you have my permission to DIE!'.


The "permission to die" scene was a really good line delivery.

I hate that final Bat/Joker conversation in TDK because Heath is so amazing and then you've got the horrible Batvoice with some awful dialogue for Batman practically undermining the scene altogether ("this city...just showed you...it's ready to believe in GOOOOD").

Ledger was brilliant though and saves it. "Madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push!" :woot:
 
In TDK/Rs, I hate the voice and the suit. It was a HUGE departure from what they did in BB.

Agreed. The voice was perfect in BB. It descended into self-parody in the sequels. By TDKR it was so bad that it detracted from any potential dignity and gravitas in Bat-Bale's lines. The open-mouthed breathing and exhausted slurring didn't help matters.

Bale's voice was actually scary in BB, whereas in the sequels it had precisely the opposite effect.
 
I thought he looked physically imposing even with the slimmer TDK/R suit. Not so much against Bane obviously (I think they made Hardy wear heightened shoes or something). But when he's throwing The Joker around in the interrogation scene, that was Bale. The only times times where I thought his voice became really OTT in TDK was with the opening 'I'm not wearing hockey pads!' line and towards the end where Batman is panting after having travelled half way across the city, got attacked by The Joker and his dogs and then choked by The Joker. Oh and saving the hostages beforehand.

People IMO grossly exaggerate the 'awfulness' of Bale's TDK/R. At most I'd say it was inconsistent like where he'd have to get REALLY emotional (BW's voice shone through when Talia stabs him) as well as the infamous 'Wheres the triggur?' line.

But he easily got back on track with the underrated comeback line 'Tell me where the trigger is, THEN you have my permission to DIE!'.

tumblr_m8gnzwRZte1qa4jwc.gif



No seriously you're right. Especially with the bolded part.
 
The "permission to die" scene was a really good line delivery.

I hate that final Bat/Joker conversation in TDK because Heath is so amazing and then you've got the horrible Batvoice with some awful dialogue for Batman practically undermining the scene altogether ("this city...just showed you...it's ready to believe in GOOOOD").

Ledger was brilliant though and saves it. "Madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push!" :woot:

Batman was exhausted. There was a method to BatBale's 'madness', perfectly fitting in with the idea that Bruce Wayne is damaged or has some sort of screw lose to completely lose himself in the Batman character as to not drop the facade at any point. Plus the poor guy was tired :csad:

Agreed. The voice was perfect in BB. It descended into self-parody in the sequels. By TDKR it was so bad that it detracted from any potential dignity and gravitas in Bat-Bale's lines. The open-mouthed breathing and exhausted slurring didn't help matters.


Bale's voice was actually scary in BB, whereas in the sequels it had precisely the opposite effect.

Self-parody? I don't know man, even in Batman Begins there was a decision made to show Batman at his most powerful but also when he's vulnerable (when he gets poisoned). But also when he gets crowbarred savagely by The Joker, broken by Bane and stabbed by Talia. I thought it was brave to show Batman with a broad range of emotions and feelings like pure rage, stoicness and exhaustion. This Batman was to be pushed to his limits, physically as well as psychologically. Moreso than any previous Batman.

tumblr_m8gnzwRZte1qa4jwc.gif



No seriously you're right. Especially with the bolded part.

:ilv:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Staff online

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
202,398
Messages
22,097,323
Members
45,893
Latest member
DooskiPack
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"