The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - Part 154

[Vulture]

I'm assuming you mean Batman and related, yes? Or DC in general?

DC in general and Batman.

 

[Snow Queen]

DC in general and Batman.

Batman obviously, Kate Kane, Barbara Gordon, Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain, Dick Grayson, Gordon, Flamebird, Alfred, Catwoman, Huntress, Black Canary, Katana, Renee Montoya, Joker, Harley Quinn, Bane, Hugo Strange, Hush, Mad Hatter, Mr. Freeze, Penguin, Poison Ivy, Ra's, Riddler, Scarecrow, Two-Face, Ventriloquist, Alice, come to mind as far as Batman-related ones go. Doing all of DC would take more time.

 

[Penguin]

I agree. It was the most vanilla, by the numbers Joker/Batman rivalry. Entirely forgettable, IMO. Practically all Batman's enemies want to kill him. Having that dimension of Joker seeing Batman more as an entertaining play thing that makes crime more fun, so he doesn't want to kill him, is far more interesting.

My dislike for Leto's Joker design aside, it already looks like he has an interesting relationship with Batman based on the [BLACKOUT]death of Robin tease that we got with the defiled Robin costume by Joker.[/BLACKOUT] I really hope they go somewhere with that.

It still confuses me at times though, with how Joker is, he still tries to kill Batman. Ledger and Hamill, both of their Jokers tried to murder Batman, but they still found him to be fun to challenge and they were protective of him too. It does make Joker seem even more insane when he claims Batman is fun, but pulls a gun and starts to shoot at him.

I have a feeling that they will, because so many people loved Ledger’s portrayal and that was a big part of his Joker.

 

[Vulture]

Batman obviously, Kate Kane, Barbara Gordon, Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain, Dick Grayson, Gordon, Flamebird, Alfred, Catwoman, Huntress, Black Canary, Katana, Renee Montoya, Joker, Harley Quinn, Bane, Hugo Strange, Hush, Mad Hatter, Mr. Freeze, Penguin, Poison Ivy, Ra's, Riddler, Scarecrow, Two-Face, Ventriloquist, Alice, come to mind as far as Batman-related ones go. Doing all of DC would take more time.

Do you like the arkham games?

 

[Snow Queen]

Do you like the arkham games?

Overall, yes.

 

[BatLobster]

It still confuses me at times though, with how Joker is, he still tries to kill Batman. Ledger and Hamill, both of their Jokers tried to murder Batman, but they still found him to be fun to challenge and they were protective of him too. It does make Joker seem even more insane when he claims Batman is fun, but pulls a gun and starts to shoot at him.

I have a feeling that they will, because so many people loved Ledger’s portrayal and that was a big part of his Joker.

I think with Ledger's Joker though, it was also a matter of getting to know Batman. Once he started to see for Batman's "incorruptibility" in action for himself, I think he started to respect Batman in a perverse way as he had finally found a worthy adversary. At least that's my take on it.

Technically though, I don't know if Ledger's Joker ever really tried to kill Batman. He was very deliberately shooting at civilian cars to try and provoke him.

Your head can go around in circles trying to suss out the inner workings of Joker's "plan" though- how much was set in stone, how much was improvised, how much his ability to predict people's behiavor was able to manipulate the turn of events. He's truly unknowable.

 

[Brother Jack]

Ledger's Joker explicitly said he didn't want to kill Batman. Without Batman Joker has no purpose, even an utterly insane purpose. His goal was to corrupt Batman or at least test him to see what he was made of. I also don't think he was actually that interested in knowing who Batman was. Trying to get him to unmask himself was more about forcing him to surrender and destroying the symbol to hurt the city.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah but that would still mean the end of Batman if he unmasked himself and everyone knew who he was. Compare that to later in the movie when he stops Reese from revealing Batman's identity because a world without Batman to him would be so boring.

 

[shauner111]

Anybody else think this Jason Todd-Joker rumor is awful? A terrible idea even though im 99 percent sure it would never happen.

 

[The Joker]

You mean the one for Leto's Joker? Yeah it's beyond stupid. All because he has a Robin tattoo.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Ignoring the cowl, the Bat-suit actually looks pretty good in this shot. I don't think I've ever seen this pic before. Must have missed this issue of Total Film during all the hype.

While I'm happy we have some variety and they've given us a grey and black suit now, I still like the all-black look.

 

[shauner111]

I love both suits. Batfleck's regular suit is still my favorite and Ben looks like a beast in it. But daaaaaamnn, i love that cowl. Most people criticize the cowl or the busy suit, but i love the all black look. The longer ears too.

That's a cool pic, but i find they make that suit look bigger in the movies, which is a good thing.

 

[titansupes]

Three years later and I'm still waiting for a clean hi-res version of that shot.

 

[The Chris]

I guess I'm a little nuts but my favorite Batman suits are both Bale outfits and the Keaton Batman Returns outfit. I like the BvS suit but the dark knight returns look was always a look i liked but never my favorite. I prefer longer ears and i definitely prefer the TDK Cape. I actual prefer the TDK cowl's expression too. There's something about Batman literally looking like a Knight that i liked, and the lean look worked for me.

 

[Vulture]

I guess I'm a little nuts but my favorite Batman suits are both Bale outfits and the Keaton Batman Returns outfit. I like the BvS suit but the dark knight returns look was always a look i liked but never my favorite. I prefer longer ears and i definitely prefer the TDK Cape. I actual prefer the TDK cowl's expression too. There's something about Batman literally looking like a Knight that i liked, and the lean look worked for me.

The suit is great, and Keaton looks awesome in it.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I guess I'm a little nuts but my favorite Batman suits are both Bale outfits and the Keaton Batman Returns outfit. I like the BvS suit but the dark knight returns look was always a look i liked but never my favorite. I prefer longer ears and i definitely prefer the TDK Cape. I actual prefer the TDK cowl's expression too. There's something about Batman literally looking like a Knight that i liked, and the lean look worked for me.

The Returns outfit is still my favorite of all the live-action suits. That may change once we see more of Bat-Fleck in action, but like you, I prefer slightly longer ears.

It's certainly the best cowl we've had.

 

[Penguin]

You know, talking about that reminds me of when I read the writer’s bible of BTAS. I remember a section of it talking about how Joker really didn’t want to kill Batman, but he’d still try. I think with Ledger, this was the case too, he didn’t exactly want to kill him, but he’d still want to see what he could live through.

I found a page of it; I think it represents the relationship between Batman and Joker perfectly.

 

[Malicked]

I guess I'm a little nuts but my favorite Batman suits are both Bale outfits and the Keaton Batman Returns outfit. I like the BvS suit but the dark knight returns look was always a look i liked but never my favorite. I prefer longer ears and i definitely prefer the TDK Cape. I actual prefer the TDK cowl's expression too. There's something about Batman literally looking like a Knight that i liked, and the lean look worked for me.

I always liked TDK cowl too. However it did take me a long time getting used to the contrast of that felt-like cape and the militaristic suit. It didn't initially click with me in the same way the Begins suit/cape did. But TDK suit really grew on me and it's probably my favourite one. The Keaton/Returns suit is great too indeed.

You know, talking about that reminds me of when I read the writer’s bible of BTAS. I remember a section of it talking about how Joker really didn’t want to kill Batman, but he’d still try. I think with Ledger, this was the case too, he didn’t exactly want to kill him, but he’d still want to see what he could live through.

I found a page of it; I think it represents the relationship between Batman and Joker perfectly.

Ledger's Joker recognised early on that Batman would be a formidable challenge and he relished that, especially since Bats had held the principle of no killing so closely. Could he have Batman? Who knows. But more importantly the cat and mouse chase is what thrilled him the most and pushing Batman to his limits morally.

 

[The Joker]

"You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self righteousness. And I won't kill you because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever"

Perfect summation of the Batman/Joker relationship.

 

[The Shape]

Another thing that really killed Burton’s movie is that they made the relationship between Joker and Batman too simple. It was simply revenge with the “you made me” thing and that doesn’t sit well with me. If people like that, then go ahead, but I prefer Joker to have fun challenging Batman and doing the battle of wits. It says a lot about how psychotic Joker is.

Something being "simple" or simplified doesn't equate to it being ineffective. The relationship between Batman and The Joker in Batman 1989 isn't radically different from the various ways their relationship has been portrayed elsewhere, despite the twist of The Joker having killed Bruce's parents. They were still depicted as being each other's "yin and yang", opposite ends of the spectrum, good versus evil, right versus wrong, order versus anarchy, one cannot exist without the other, etc. Their relationship was just presented in a different, more symbiotic and self contained way (since The Joker died) than it was in TDK.

This excerpt from an article I posted in the B89 thread is a great summation of their relationship at its core:

Probably the most problematic change for fans is the twist that it was the Joker, as a young Jack Napier, who killed Bruce’s parents and thereby inadvertently created Batman.

Hence, another reason why this is more Burton’s fairy tale than a comic book adaptation. While the duality of Batman and Joker’s relationship is brilliantly explored in Nolan’s The Dark Knight, it has never been more symbiotic than in this film. In the comics and more recent movies, Batman’s order needs Joker’s chaos. But for Burton, it is good and evil co-existing because they literally make and remake each other out of necessity.

Napier created the only singular force that would one day stop him like a bratty child wanting to be punished. Batman created an adversary to justify his extreme existence. It is a causality dilemma, like the chicken and the egg, wrapped up in comic book drag. It’s so elegantly realized, this writer still wishes the filmmakers knew better than to kill the Joker at the end.

Also, the "revenge" element didn't come into play until the very end, and it was essentially icing on the cake for Batman at that point to get revenge for the death of his parents. He was always going to go after The Joker and put an end to his "reign of terror" (as he had been throughout the film). Whether or not he realized that The Joker was the man who killed his parents, Batman was likely always going to find himself in the same final scenario -- at the top of the cathedral to save Vicki and come face to face with The Joker.

 

[The Shape]

Ledger's Joker recognised early on that Batman would be a formidable challenge and he relished that, especially since Bats had held the principle of no killing so closely. Could he have Batman? Who knows. But more importantly the cat and mouse chase is what thrilled him the most and pushing Batman to his limits morally.

Yeah, I really wish we could have seen Heath's Joker face Batman one more time post-TDK. It would have been amazing.

 

[Penguin]

I may not prefer the relationship in '89, but I see where you’re coming from with it.

In the Dark Knight, I do remember Ledger's Joker did try to kill Batman a couple of times. He tried to stab him at the end of the movie. Joker is contradictory on things.

 

[The Joker]

In the Dark Knight, I do remember Ledger's Joker did try to kill Batman a couple of times. He tried to stab him at the end of the movie. Joker is contradictory on things.

I don't remember him trying to stab Batman at the end. He was using a metal bar to hit him. I always wished it had been a crowbar, it would have been a nice homage to A Death in the Family.

 

[Snow Queen]

The revenge element was pretty much the basis for the "feud" in B'89, since Joker was after Batman because he dropped him in the chemicals. Then it flips and Batman is looking for revenge because Joker killed his parents.

It wasn't a yin yang relationship. It was a contrived revenge one. Joker being responsible for the creation of Batman is just so so wrong.



I don't remember him trying to stab Batman at the end. He was using a metal bar to hit him. I always wished it had been a crowbar, it would have been a nice homage to A Death in the Family.

He did stab him at one point, if memory serves. The "of all the old, familiar places" line, followed by stabbing him between the armour plates.

 

[The Joker]

He did stab him at one point, if memory serves. The "of all the old, familiar places" line, followed by stabbing him between the armour plates.

Yeah I remember the line, and the scene, but I don't recall him stabbing him. I thought he was hitting him in the same sensitive spot where he stabbed him with his shoe knife earlier in the Penthouse party scene, hence why he called it an old familiar place;

It looked like he was still beating him with the metal bar, not stabbing him with a knife. I never saw him pull a knife out during this confrontation.

Btw anyone know why Vulture was banned?