The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - Part 154

[BatLobster]

I'm not entirely sure that's a good thing honestly. Man of Steel felt very much like it was trying to recreate what Nolan did with Batman Begins without having the strength of vision behind it (despite Nolan having a producer and story credit). This movie could easily fall into the same trap. Tone should be secondary to a quality writing and directing and all that.

That's true too. That's why I'm also glad WB seems to be adopting a director-friendly model that let's each director inject their own vision into a project. So it's encouraging to see something like the difference in feel between SS and BvS despite them playing in the same sandbox. And BvS definitely looks a lot more like a Zack Snyder movie so far, for better or worse. I think the idea is that Nolan's movies really kicked the door wide open in terms of getting audiences on board with a 100% earnest take on a superhero movie that doesn't need to wink at the audience. As long as the filmmakers are not equating a serious tone with automatic quality, I think there are ways to treat the material in a serious manner without straight up copying what Nolan did. It is a trap that lesser filmmakers can fall into, but we'll just have to hope that WB is hiring the right people.

After the utter cookie cutter blandness of Ant-Man, I have to say it made the prospect of more filmmaker-driven CBMs that much more attractive to me- not that it ever wasn't. I think that's been one of WB/DC's major strengths, dating back to the hiring of Tim Burton.

 

[ThePhantasm]

 

[shauner111]

What if "Robin" was killed by the Joker and he was Blake!? This Joker is Ledger's Joker about 14 years later and Bale-Bruce came back to Gotham recently?

 

[Kane52630]

or nah.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

And a bigger city next to Gotham just willed into existence.

 

[shauner111]

They never mention nearby cities anyway.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Alfred decided to drop his Cockney and remove four inches from his spine.

 

[Brother Jack]

They never mention nearby cities anyway.

Gotham is basically depicted as a big island in TDKT. Hence the importance of ferries and bridges. And also the largest and "greatest" city in America.

The Leto=Jason Todd thing is interesting in some ways but obviously completely untrue. Seems like a very detailed method of apologizing for the way the Joker looks. Which is understandable, but at a certain point everyone just needs to accept that this is what the DCCU's version of the Joker looks like for better or worse.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

You know, Batman's plane massacring people can be explained in context. Even Batman snapping someone's neck can be explained (it was da dreamz, yo). But when the filmmakers are claiming that Batman is the "judge, jury, and executioner", it begins to make me concerned.

What do you guys think? Is Batfleck's Batman a killer?

 

[shauner111]

I do, unfortunately.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

That immediately begs the question, why the F is the Joker alive?

 

[ThePhantasm]

Sounds like Christian Bale's Batman.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Where is this Bat-executioner business coming from?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Sounds like Christian Bale's Batman.

Bale's Batman was a killer because of poor writing. This one seems to be a killer intentionally. Not the same thing.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'd rather him be a killer intentionally, to be honest.

Although I'm still not convinced that he will be a killer. We'll see though.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Me too. But that doesn't explain why the Joker is still drawing breath. Which was my point.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[shauner111]

Bale's Batman didn't kill because of bad writing. Saving a kids life, Dent dies in the crossfire. Talia dies in order to save an entire city (very similar to Superman killing Zod, only Zod could have escaped that situation so Nolan had better writing on that one). Ras is the big debate around here. But i still stand by A) Batman being a rookie and B) that there's a difference between murdering a man and not saving him, when the dude put himself in a sort of suicidal mission.

Id rather see Batman more like Bale's Batman where he has a no kill rule. But it's not black and white where the writers go "well, he doesnt kill so we'll always stick to that". No, mistakes happen, people die in the crossfire and sometimes sacrifices have to be made in order to save a greater amount of people.

Affleck's Batman may kill when his back is up against the wall and he must save a city. I get that. If he just kills criminals for the sake of killing them like Keaton, then i wont like it.

 

[Kane52630]

I honestly don't care if Batman kills, he's done it before in various mediums (whether intentional or not), the main thing has always been guns. The convenience of a gun ending somebody's life is what has always.... triggered.... Bruce Wayne.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I honestly don't care if Batman kills, he's done it before in various mediums (whether intentional or not), the main thing has always been guns. The convenience of a gun ending somebody's life is what has always.... triggered.... Bruce Wayne.

Agreed.

 

[The Joker]

You know, Batman's plane massacring people can be explained in context. Even Batman snapping someone's neck can be explained.

Bale's Batman was a killer because of poor writing.

Any killing that happened on Bale's watch can be explained in context, too. It's not bad writing. Even comic book Batman who has a strict no kill rule has had similar instances.

But when the filmmakers are claiming that Batman is the "judge, jury, and executioner", it begins to make me concerned.

What do you guys think? Is Batfleck's Batman a killer?

It sounds like another awful killing version of Batman. Which is the worst version of Batman. The more I hear about BvsS the worse it sounds. Batman and executioner don't belong in the same sentence unless it's clarifying that it's something he's not.

Bale's Batman didn't kill because of bad writing. Saving a kids life, Dent dies in the crossfire. Talia dies in order to save an entire city (very similar to Superman killing Zod, only Zod could have escaped that situation so Nolan had better writing on that one). Ras is the big debate around here. But i still stand by A) Batman being a rookie and B) that there's a difference between murdering a man and not saving him, when the dude put himself in a sort of suicidal mission.

Id rather see Batman more like Bale's Batman where he has a no kill rule. But it's not black and white where the writers go "well, he doesnt kill so we'll always stick to that". No, mistakes happen, people die in the crossfire and sometimes sacrifices have to be made in order to save a greater amount of people.

Affleck's Batman may kill when his back is up against the wall and he must save a city. I get that. If he just kills criminals for the sake of killing them like Keaton, then i wont like it.

Exactly

Brilliant lol.

 

[BatLobster]

"You spat in the faces of Gotham's criminals. Didn't you ever think there might be some casualties?" - Alfred

Have to disagree on the poor writing accusation Tacit. Bruce Wayne stating his intentions to not become and executioner is not the same thing as the writers promising that nobody would die at his hands as things escalated. It's still an important distinction to make for the character, because having regard for human life and not wanting to kill helped draw a line in the sand and showed Bruce's desire for justice. Bruce wanted to scare the mob, weed out corruption, and eventually move on. He never counted on fighting global or domestic terrorists.

They made that struggle part of his journey. A man wanting to wage a war without killing anybody. This is a weakness The Joker finds and exploits, because he sees the inherent contradiction there.

I'd argue the one truly morally ambiguous kill was choosing not to save Ra's...but that was a choice that eventually came back to haunt him too. You could argue saving Ra's' life the first time also came back to haunt him as well which is why he didn't feel obligated to save him again. Not to mention Ra's was on a suicide mission anyway.

As for Batfleck...I'll just have to see how it's written. It's a different Batman at the end of his rope. It may not be my preferred take but I can't speak to its quality without having seen it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I was more referring to him setting the LOS temple on fire, right after he gives his "I'm not an executioner speech". I get that he was backed into a corner, but his solution was fatal to many dozens of ninjas. I wonder if he considered their lives. I wonder if Batman (and Goyer) couldn't have come up with a less destructive solution.

I also don't like the scene where the Tumbler rams into the garbage truck. The top half was completely hammered. I know we see him duck, but he would still feel the shards of a thousand flying glass fragments from the windshield.

What about the tumbler chase in Begins? Right after we see him board the Tumbler, he rams it on top of a cop car. How did they survive? It was a miracle.

Ras was also a problem. I just don't like how he abandons him to die. It doesn't feel like the dude that would later save the Joker from falling down the building.

Both times Batman doesn't kill the Joker, he would be directly responsible for killing him. So I guess this Batman differentiates between direct and indirect killing, the latter being more palatable? But didn't he jam the controls of the train, making it impossible for the train to stop? That's being directly responsible for Ras' demise.

Talia's death is more forgivable. He had to stop the bomb and there was literally no other way to get to it but through Talia. This is different from abandoning Ras to die.

Yet, at the same chase scene, Batman redirects those missiles straight back to the attackers. Thanks to convenient writing the missiles only hit the butt of tumbler. They could've been fatal.

Not to mention Ra's was on a suicide mission anyway.

In a way, so was the Joker. He would consider it mission accomplished if Batman killed him.

 

[shauner111]

He threw Joker off a building, of course he's going to catch him. He didn't put Ras on that suicide train. And if you want to get technical, he was just becoming Batman in Begins but fully formed by TDK.

Very similar to Superman starting out in Man Of Steel and then learning his mistakes by the time Batman vs Superman comes around.

 

[Kane52630]

He became Batman once his parents got killed. #trufacts