The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[Awest66]

Nolan making four films was never in the cards. Bale and the core cast were contracted for three while Nolan was not. It wasn’t a guarantee he’d come back for either sequel, and it was clear from the trajectory of his career that he wasn’t interested in making Batman movies forever. So he constructed the third film from the ground up to be a hard ending and it informed every creative choice; the time jump, the chiastic pattern mirroring Begins, the amalgam of thematic and aesthetic elements of the previous films. It’s the classic trilogy with a big three-act structure and it kind of necessitated that the third part be what it was.

This is why I always roll my eyes hard whenever people say, "Nolan's heart just wasn't in it or that he only did it out of obligation".

 

[BatLobster]

(Artwork by Tom Uicich)

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Both of those posters use the Batman Begins color scheme (brown). Good artwork though.

 

[cryptic name]

Joker, Catwoman, Penguin, and both Keaton suits? I would absolutely buy them all.

Seems likely if they’re doing a Nolan series. Especially since they’re no doubt gonna do a Keaton Batman for The Flash

 

[DoomRulz]

Still my favorite Batman/Bruce Wayne. Wasn't aware Bale and Ledger went go kart riding haha. Man, I miss the era of this trilogy. It was just a whole different beast back then.

That man is the greatest actor of our time. Seriously; I will die on that hill.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I'm really grateful we have three great films - and that's it.

The Reeves-verse is pretty good so far, but with the list of spinoffs now topping 4 in addition to the proper Batman sequel, I'm worried it will be too much.

Just mathematically, the more you do, they can't all be winners. You run the risk of over saturation and delivering a product that isn't up to snuff or messes with continuity.

Sometimes a trilogy of great films is better than a saga of ones that vary in quality.

Though, I would love a Dark Knight Trilogy comics run in between the last two films.

Heck, even a graphic novel of each film would be cool.

 

[Gothamsknight]

People seem so afraid of endings these days. I'm happy TDKR was the conclusion and rounded out 3 incredible films.

 

[BatLobster]

I'm really grateful we have three great films - and that's it.

The Reeves-verse is pretty good so far, but with the list of spinoffs now topping 4 in addition to the proper Batman sequel, I'm worried it will be too much.

Just mathematically, the more you do, they can't all be winners. You run the risk of over saturation and delivering a product that isn't up to snuff or messes with continuity.

Sometimes a trilogy of great films is better than a saga of ones that vary in quality.

Though, I would love a Dark Knight Trilogy comics run in between the last two films.

Heck, even a graphic novel of each film would be cool.

I'm know you're probably aware, but there actually was a comic adaptation of Begins. I agree though, I wish the two sequels would've gotten them, just for the sake of completion. I totally forgot though, there actually were mini-comics done of the prologues for TDK and TDKR, so at least there's that.

Apparently there are three novels set in the Nolanverse (not officially canon but still). Never knew about those, found out about them here:

Obscure Comics: The Dark Knight & The Dark Knight Rises Prologues

It goes through all the extra material that exists for the Nolanverse.

One thing NOT listed here though...was this motion comic that came out sometime after Begins. It was part of some cross promotion that I can't remember now, but I just know the story involved Bruce investigating the possible return of the Ra's and/or the League of Shadows and if I recall I think he journeys back across the world searching but finds nothing. It was officially released with WB's involvement. I haven't been able to track it down in forever, but I swear I'm not making this up haha. I've always wanted to give it another read post-TDKR to see how well it fit canonically with what everything we later learned in TDKR.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I'm know you're probably aware, but there actually was a comic adaptation of Begins. I agree though, I wish the two sequels would've gotten them, just for the sake of completion. I totally forgot though, there actually were mini-comics done of the prologues for TDK and TDKR, so at least there's that.

Apparently there are three novels set in the Nolanverse (not officially canon but still). Never knew about those, found out about them here:

Obscure Comics: The Dark Knight & The Dark Knight Rises Prologues

It goes through all the extra material that exists for the Nolanverse.

One thing NOT listed here though...was this motion comic that came out sometime after Begins. It was part of some cross promotion that I can't remember now, but I just know the story involved Bruce investigating the possible return of the Ra's and/or the League of Shadows and if I recall I think he journeys back across the world searching but finds nothing. It was officially released with WB's involvement. I haven't been able to track it down in forever, but I swear I'm not making this up haha. I've always wanted to give it another read post-TDKR to see how well it fit canonically with what everything we later learned in TDKR.

I actually vaguely remember all of this haha. Man, I had completely forgotten this had existed. And the TDKR prologue comic is on youtube!

 

[Blade Hoarder]

How does TDKRises look so good on UHD blu-Ray? The other two looks good but have problems. This is a near reference level transfer. Pure eye candy.

 

[Gothamsknight]

It's easily one of the best UHDs out there, but I actually think all 3 look pretty darn great. Especially TDK and TDKR.

 

[Kane52630]

I really wish they had a "Things are worse than ever!" line in The Dark Knight Rises. Katie Holmes said it in Begins and we all know it was said in The Dark Knight.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I really wish they had a "Things are worse than ever!" line in The Dark Knight Rises. Katie Holmes said it in Begins and we all know it was said in The Dark Knight.

Haha would've become the "I got a bad feeling about this" of the trilogy.

 

[Drizzle]

I really wish they had a "Things are worse than ever!" line in The Dark Knight Rises. Katie Holmes said it in Begins and we all know it was said in The Dark Knight.

Batman should have said that to Bane when he came back to Gotham at the end.

 

[BatLobster]

Lol, I mean objectively things WERE worse than ever in Gotham in TDKR so it fits.

 

[BatLobster]

So uh...I've been messing around with this ChatGPT stuff. It's beyond bonkers, guys, and a little scary. But also amazingly dumb and hilarious. The following is a conversation I generated in the openAI "Playground". I prompted it to write a conversation between Christopher Nolan and Samuel L. Jackson discusing a possible fourth "Dark Knight" movie. There are some instances where I interject to try and move the convo into certain direction, but anything you see next to Jackson and Nolan's name was entirely generated by AI. There's only a few spots where I removed my prompt for comedic effect and keeping the flow of the convo going. Check out the insanity:

Me: Write a conversation between Christopher Nolan and Samuel L. Jackson where Samuel L. Jackson is excitedly pitching the plot of a 4th "Dark Knight" film that he would star in as the villain. At first Nolan doesn't think any of the ideas are good and is being sarcastically dismissive. Jackson gets angry with him as he realizes this.

Samuel L. Jackson: Hey Chris, let me tell you about the villain I got in mind for the fourth Dark Knight movie. This motherf***er is gonna be powerful and mysterious, a master of martial arts and weapons. He's out to bring chaos to the world and create a new world order with him at the head.

Christopher Nolan: That sounds pretty ambitious. What kind of chaos is he trying to bring?

Samuel L. Jackson: He's got a plan to take over Gotham and bend it to his will. Batman will have to use all his skills to unravel the mystery of my character's past and put an end to this mother****er's evil scheme.

Christopher Nolan: Yeah, sure. What kind of chaos is he trying to bring?

Samuel L. Jackson: He's got a plan to take over Gotham and bend it to his will. Batman will have to use all his skills to unravel the mystery of my character's past and put an end to this guy's evil scheme.

Christopher Nolan: Sounds like a real challenge for Batman. What kind of challenges do you think he will face?

Samuel L. Jackson: (angrily)What's with the sarcasm? You don't think it's a good idea?

Christopher Nolan: I'm not saying that. I'm just asking questions.

Samuel L. Jackson: (angrily) Look, Christopher, I'm trying to give you an awesome idea here. If you don't think it's any good, just tell me. Don't be so dismissive.

Christopher Nolan: I'm sorry if I came off that way. I'm just trying to understand the idea better. Tell me more about the challenges Batman would face when trying to stop this villain.

Me: Let's continue this conversation but it takes a turn and Nolan starts getting excited about the possibilities of the new movie. They accidentally stumble on what the movie would be titled.

Christopher Nolan: Wow, this sounds like an amazing idea. I can really see how Batman would have to use all of his skills and resources to try to stop this villain.

Samuel L. Jackson: I know! It's gonna be epic!

Christopher Nolan: And I think I have a title for the movie...The Dark Knight Rises!

Samuel L. Jackson: That's perfect! It really captures the essence of the story.

Christopher Nolan: Yes, I think it's perfect. I'm excited to start working on this project!

Me: Let's try that bit again, but Samuel L Jackson points out that the last movie was already called The Dark Knight Rises. Nolan is embarrassed. But they come up with a more appropriate title that includes the word "motherf***er".

Samuel L. Jackson: I like the title The Dark Knight Rises, but wasn't that the title of the last movie?

Christopher Nolan: (embarrassed) Oh, right. I guess I hadn't thought of that.

Samuel L. Jackson: Haha, don't worry about it. How about The Dark Knight Rises Again: The Motherf***er Strikes Back?

Christopher Nolan: (laughing) That does have a nice ring to it! I think that might be a better title for this movie.

Me: They're both happy with this title. Nolan and Jackson debate whether Jackson would be a new, original villain or a villain from the comic books that wasn't used in the previous movies.

Samuel L. Jackson: Alright, so the title is settled. Now, should I play an original villain or one from the comics?

Christopher Nolan: That's a good question. We could go either way. What do you think?

Samuel L. Jackson: I think an original villain would be more interesting. It would give us more freedom to create something new and exciting.

Christopher Nolan: That's true. On the other hand, a comic book villain would already have an established backstory that could be explored.

Samuel L. Jackson: That's true too. Let's think about it and decide later.

They decide that it actually should be a villain from the comics, and they make a decision about which one.

Christopher Nolan: Alright, let's go with a villain from the comics. Who do you think would be a good fit?

Samuel L. Jackson: How about The Joker? He'd be a great challenge for Batman and there's already a lot of material to draw from.

Christopher Nolan: That's a great idea. We could definitely make something exciting with The Joker as the villain.

Me: Jackson thinks Nolan might be high on drugs if he forgot about Heath Ledger's legendary performance as The Joker in The Dark Knight. He confronts him on the absurdity of this suggestion.

Samuel L. Jackson: Wait, are you serious? Heath Ledger's performance as The Joker in The Dark Knight was legendary. Are you really suggesting we try to top that?

Christopher Nolan: (slightly embarrassed) Well, I mean, it's a challenge, but I think we can do it. We could explore the character in a different way and create something new and exciting.

Samuel L. Jackson: What the f**k are you talking about? We can't just make something new and exciting with The Joker. We'd be setting ourselves up for failure.

Christopher Nolan: (confused and a bit paranoid) What are you trying to do? Are you trying to ruin my reputation?

Samuel L. Jackson: (angrily) No, I'm trying to make a good movie. This is a ridiculous idea. We need to come up with something more original.

Me: Nolan reminds Samuel Jackson of some his original ideas and acclaimed films and suggests that Jackson should know who he's dealing with.

Christopher Nolan: Look, I've made some acclaimed films in the past, and I think I know what I'm doing. I think it's possible to make something new and exciting with The Joker.

Samuel L. Jackson: (calming down) Alright, I get it. You know what you're doing. Let's just take a step back and think of something more original.

Me: Nolan concedes that it won't be The Joker and settles on another villain- but NOT Bane, Talia, Catwoman, Two-Face or Ra's al Ghul.

Christopher Nolan: Alright, so it won't be The Joker. Who do you think would be a good villain for the movie? Not Bane, Talia, Catwoman, Two-Face, or Ra's Al Ghul.

Samuel L. Jackson: How about Clayface? He's got a lot of potential and his shapeshifting powers could make for some really interesting scenes.

Christopher Nolan: That's a great idea! Clayface could be a really interesting villain. Let's explore that idea further.

Samuel L. Jackson: Yes! Clayface is perfect! He's mysterious and powerful, and his shapeshifting powers would make for some really intense action scenes. He could be a real motherf***er of a villain. We gotta do this!

Me: Nolan says he will make the movie under one condition. Jackson must sing him a song about Clayface right now.

Christopher Nolan: Alright, I'm on board. But there's one condition. You have to sing me a song about Clayface right now.

Samuel L. Jackson: (laughing) You got it!

(Samuel L. Jackson begins singing)

There's a villain in the city,
He's a master of disguise,
He can change his shape and face
To fool anyone's eyes.
He's Clayface, the terror of Gotham,
And he's out to cause chaos and mayhem.
A mother****er of a villain,
He'll have Batman running scared.
But don't worry, cuz Batman's brave,
He'll fight hard and never give in.
So keep your eyes open,
Gotham City,
Clayface is coming around.
Nolan breaks out an electric guitar.

Christopher Nolan: That was awesome! Let's jam!

Me: They start jamming, and figure out the plot of the movie as a song. Specifically, they sing about how the movie will end.

Samuel L. Jackson: (singing)

The Dark Knight will face his fears,
He'll fight 'til the bitter end,
And with courage and strength of heart,
He'll put Clayface to rest.
The people will be saved,
Gotham will be restored,
And the Dark Knight will have won,
Once and for all.

Me: Nolan is disgusted. He knows Jackson can do better than that.

Christopher Nolan: That's not good enough. You can do better than that. Let's make it more epic!
Samuel L. Jackson: Alright, I got it!
(Samuel L. Jackson begins singing)
The Dark Knight will battle fear,
He'll never give in,
He'll battle the villainous Clayface,
Until the very end.
The city will be saved,
From the chaos and despair,
And the Dark Knight will stand tall,
A hero forever more.

Me: Nolan and Sam Jackson have a moment of deep bonding, before pouring themselves each a shot of whiskey and making a toast to their mother****ing Batman movie.

Christopher Nolan: Wow, that was great! Let's make a toast to our motherf***ing Batman movie!

Samuel L. Jackson: Absolutely! (raises his shot glass) To The Dark Knight Rises Again: The Mother****er Strikes Back!

I was also able to have a legit, more serious brainstorm session with the ChatGPT function about where a fourth Dark Knight movie might go. It was an absolute trip. It even suggested a title that I thought was pretty cool. I have screenshots of that, when I get a chance I'll upload and share. But this stuff is bananas. I also had a really helpful conversation where it advised and helped me strategize for a project I want to do in my basement. My head is still spinning from it all.

 

[Matt.S99]

I really think Rises feels more like far removed fourth film, in the Nolan Batman saga.

Like, there should've been a third Nolan film released in 2012 different than Rises, taking place not long after Dark Knight, and Rises should've come out in say...2020.

As much as I love this series, sometimes it feels like there's a missing piece between those two films.

Sorry, I know this is a bit of an older comment, but just wanted to add to the discussion. I watched TDK and Rises back to back yesterday and I totally agree with this sentiment. Has Nolan ever discussed what his original plan was for the third film, pre-Ledger’s passing? I’m sure he had some of the same ideas, but I can’t imagine the original idea was exactly like Rises.

Also would be nice to know where Selina was between the two films as well.

I still see a lot of people crap on Rises, but I thought it was a fitting ending to that universe, but there was definitely some big story we missed in there.

 

[BatLobster]

Sorry, I know this is a bit of an older comment, but just wanted to add to the discussion. I watched TDK and Rises back to back yesterday and I totally agree with this sentiment. Has Nolan ever discussed what his original plan was for the third film, pre-Ledger’s passing? I’m sure he had some of the same ideas, but I can’t imagine the original idea was exactly like Rises.

Also would be nice to know where Selina was between the two films as well.

I still see a lot of people crap on Rises, but I thought it was a fitting ending to that universe, but there was definitely some big story we missed in there.

Nope, he's never discussed it. The closest thing we've gotten to an admission that Ledger's Joker would've returned was Goyer saying "It would've been a no-brainer".

Goyer also originally said that Harvey was going to be scarred by The Joker during The Joker's trial in the third film and Two-Face would be the villain, but this was also during the BB days before they had a script for TDK. With TDK condensing Two-Face's origin and death all into one film, I think that pretty much scrapped whatever Goyer originally had in mind for the third film. Truthfully, Nolan seems to be so hyper-focused on whatever project he's working on at the time that I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have much of a notion of what the third film would be while they were working on TDK. I think it would be interesting to ask Goyer and Jonathan Nolan about that though.

 

[The Joker]

I distinctly remember Heath Ledger's sister saying Heath had plans to play the Joker again.

Speaking to Australian site news.com.au last year ahead of the release of documentary I Am Heath Ledger, Kate said: "He was so proud of what he had done in Batman. And I know he had plans for another Batman.

Heath Ledger's Joker was set to appear in Batman sequel Dark Knight Rises, reveal family

 

[Matt.S99]

Interesting. I figured they at least discussed bringing him back for another. I do still think they should have at least mentioned Joker in Rises. Give us an idea of where he was. A throwaway line that he was locked up in Arkham would have sufficed.

 

[BatLobster]

Interesting. I figured they at least discussed bringing him back for another. I do still think they should have at least mentioned Joker in Rises. Give us an idea of where he was. A throwaway line that he was locked up in Arkham would have sufficed.

At least you get something like that in the TDKR novelization.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Seems this film is still synonymous with the term 'plot holes' based on some stuff I was reading yesterday.

Internet culture in 2012 that was all about picking films apart frame by frame and finding 'plot holes' really did a number on this film's rep.

 

[Awest66]

Seems this film is still synonymous with the term 'plot holes' based on some stuff I was reading yesterday.

Internet culture in 2012 that was all about picking films apart frame by frame and finding 'plot holes' really did a number on this film's rep.

TDKR had a lot working against it in terms of fan reception. On top of the above-mentioned, It was a TDK sequel without Ledgers Joker and it was released in the same year as Marvel's The Avengers (the movie that fully displayed the benefits of a "shared cinematic universe")

 

[J.Drangal]

Ironically, I thought TDKRises had some plot holes, but not the ones discussed to death pretty much everywhere.

 

[DoomRulz]

Sidenote...Happy Holidays and Happy New Year folks.

I swear, this sub-forum is the only one I enjoy visiting on this site anymore because it's so damn wholesome, and y'all are adults. Everywhere else is just...cringe, to say the least.

Thanks for being so amazing.