The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[Gothamsknight]

Glad I'm not the only one who rolls my eyes at the "Begins is a better Batman movie than TDK" thing. I honestly feel like people say that strictly because it features the Narrows, Arkham Asylum, Scarecrow's fear toxin, Batman being a terrifying force to criminals etc.- more "comic booky" elements. But to me it's more of a Bruce Wayne story, which is why I love it- especially the first hour.

TDK is more of a full-on Batman/Gotham crime epic that captures the essence of Batman/Joker dynamic and Harvey's rise and fall. Some hugely important pieces of the overall Batman mythos. Again, I think people just say it because you have a more "clean" Gotham that's full-on Chicago, a lot of daytime scenes, etc. Bruce does take a bit of a back seat compared to Begins , but the movie itself is entirely an exploration of what effects that his choice to be Batman has had on Gotham. And the Bruce story obviously comes full circle in Rises.

Fans are just funny. I'm glad there are some of us who can see beyond the present moment and notice these cycles when it comes to how some people tear down previous incarnations to somehow "justify" their hype, when it's not necessary. You can still love and celebrate the old stuff while embracing the new. Makes being a fan a richer experience if you ask me.

Absolutely. The thing about TDK is that it is completely a Batman story, and it's also a continuation of the stuff the Gordon talked about at the end of Batman Begins. The themes of escalation, and the consequences of Batmans "theatrical presence" creating someone like him but also completely opposite. It is the ultimate Batman vs Joker story, and it has our hero pushed to the edge with the ultimate test of his character and soul. It's the type of Batman story that best shows how much he can endure. How anybody can claim it's not a good Batman story is baffling to me.

As @The Batman said, people seem to not really acknowledge that Nolans gotham in TDK and TDKR isn't far removed from what was in the comics either. There's numerous examples of New York city being a stand in for the cities in comic books. But hey, that's what happens when Frank Millers work is the only stuff people read these days from Batmans past. Don't get me wrong, I love his work and I think Year One and TDKR are masterpieces, but there's so much more.

 

[shauner111]

Of course Gotham looked less gothic back in the old days but it also didn't just look like Chicago. As in, one iconic American city that we've seen countless times in popular films. I think the criticism with that has more to do with Nolan's Gotham not having its own identity. Which Gotham should look unique and unlike JUST New York or JUST Chicago. It should stand out among other American cities. Miller’s city looked ordinary but it had its own character, separate from NYC architecture. So if fans only read Miller’s novels, they wouldn’t be expecting a pure gothic nightmare. So I’m not sure what you meant by that good fellow @Gothamsknight

TDK is good but I've never thought it was as great as ppl say. It's a solid crime epic/action movie with brilliant stuff that will stick with you forever. And it's also a movie with eye rolling schlock that doesn't quite come together in the third act. But Nolan knows how to end his films on such a high note that I normally forgive the schlock and exposition. Ive had my time with it but I'd much rather watch the movies that influenced it.

Ledger and Bale's Joker/Batman dynamic is the best in live action so far. It's not a contest. But I don't see it as definitive either.

I've kinda fallen out of love with Nolan's style but that whole trilogy is still solid enough for me to watch them every few years (I'll be doing a TDK Trilogy marathon next month). And I'll probably watch the Burton Batman movies in December. You can dig all of em' even Batman Forever! But it's also okay to feel like your Batman hasn't been adapted yet. I know peeps in this thread are kinda like "I'm excited for Reeves' Batman but Nolan's Batman scratched that itch for me. It'll probably always be the greatest!" (That's the vibe I get when I chime in here). But I'm the opposite. I loved them at the time, still enjoy TDK and the two movies that precede and follow it, but as someone who grew up with BTAS/MOTP long before Nolan came into the picture AND as someone who's been reading more since Rises wrapped...i still kinda see Chris' vision like I do Tim's or Zack's or Joel's. They all feel more like the Hollywood takes on Batman. Matt Reeves' vision on the other hand feels a lot closer to the animation and comic book Batman to me. It simultaneously feels like the closest to the source material, the most well thought out and he's still throwing in new curveballs as well.

So I'm even more excited for March 2022. The definitive Batman (whatever that means to you) hasn't happened yet in my eyes. But I can still enjoy the past.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Of course Gotham looked less gothic back in the old days but it also didn't just look like Chicago. As in, one iconic American city that we've seen countless times in popular films. I think the criticism with that has more to do with Nolan's Gotham not having its own identity. Which Gotham should look unique and unlike JUST New York or JUST Chicago. It should stand out among other American cities. Miller’s city looked ordinary but it had its own character, separate from NYC architecture. So if fans only read Miller’s novels, they wouldn’t be expecting a pure gothic nightmare. So I’m not sure what you meant by that good fellow @Gothamsknight

TDK is good but I've never thought it was as great as ppl say. It's a solid crime epic/action movie with brilliant stuff that will stick with you forever. And it's also a movie with eye rolling schlock that doesn't quite come together in the third act. But Nolan knows how to end his films on such a high note that I normally forgive the schlock and exposition. Ive had my time with it but I'd much rather watch the movies that influenced it.

Ledger and Bale's Joker/Batman dynamic is the best in live action so far. It's not a contest. But I don't see it as definitive either.

I've kinda fallen out of love with Nolan's style but that whole trilogy is still solid enough for me to watch them every few years (I'll be doing a TDK Trilogy marathon next month). And I'll probably watch the Burton Batman movies in December. You can dig all of em' even Batman Forever! But it's also okay to feel like your Batman hasn't been adapted yet. I know peeps in this thread are kinda like "I'm excited for Reeves' Batman but Nolan's Batman scratched that itch for me. It'll probably always be the greatest!" (That's the vibe I get when I chime in here). But I'm the opposite. I loved them at the time, still enjoy TDK and the two movies that precede and follow it, but as someone who grew up with BTAS/MOTP long before Nolan came into the picture AND as someone who's been reading more since Rises wrapped...i still kinda see Chris' vision like I do Tim's or Zack's or Joel's. They all feel more like the Hollywood takes on Batman. Matt Reeves' vision on the other hand feels a lot closer to the animation and comic book Batman to me. It simultaneously feels like the closest to the source material, the most well thought out and he's still throwing in new curveballs as well.

So I'm even more excited for March 2022. The definitive Batman (whatever that means to you) hasn't happened yet in my eyes. But I can still enjoy the past.

right now, I think Nolans trilogy is still by far the best live action adaption that we've gotten and it holds a special place in my heart. But Reeves version looks incredible so far too, and I'm totally open to it taking the top spot if it does. I mean, all the ingredients are there for it to be special. Reeves understands the character so well, and it's clear he knows EXACTLY what to do with this character. I tend to bring up TDK trilogy a lot though because with a new version on the horizon, it always irks me when people try to somehow discredit something that was universally praised just a few years ago. I'm always baffled how in just a couple years we can go from "Nolan got the character and his world so right!" to "these aren't real batman movies". That's the main point I was trying to make lol. As @The Joker said, it's the old fanboy cycle. It's not that I don't think Reeves can surpass TDK trilogy in quality, though i think it's gonna definitely be hard, it's that they discredit something of the past, no matter how good it apparently was just a few years ago. I've never believe in tearing down the past to prop up the future. I'm definitely open to Reeves version being top dog if it can reach those heights. So far, there's absolutely nothing about The Batman that gives me pause. From the look of the movie, to the acting, to the story, the passion, and the directing, it all looks phenomenal. I'm totally invested in what Reeves is doing. I will quote Jett from Batman on film when I say that I'll always adore TDK trilogy, but I would not be upset or mad if Reeves manages to surpass it. We all should want the movie to be as great as it can be and it sure as hell looks like it's gonna be damn great. We just gotta see the movie first haha.

You all know how excited I am for the film lol.

 

[shauner111]

Well said brobafett.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I was in high school when TDK dropped, and I remember once I saw the flick, I couldn't have been more satisfied with the movie. It was seeing something done so well that I would have been happy with that being the last Batman flick at the time lol. The whole trilogy just reached heights that hadn't happened before with a comic book character, so it's why I'm always defensive over the trilogy when it comes to retroactive "reception changing" . Will it get topped? It's certainly possible, but we shall see and I'm fine if it ends up happening. I just want a great Batman story again, preferably a trilogy! and it looks like we are getting that in just a few months.

 

[BatLobster]

@shauner111

Put it this way. Reeves looks to be making the type of Batman movie I always dreamed about when I was younger and wanted to see David Fincher tackle a Batman movie.

What Nolan did was he made the Batman movies I never even knew I needed and it "scratched the itch" in terms of it just reached my pinnacle of hype, in terms of the stars aligning with where I was at in life. Begins was more than a Batman movie to me, I used to turn it on and fall asleep to that first hour regularly, or listening to the score. It was like soul nourishment for me, going on that journey with Bruce. Sort of a coming of age thing but instead of the adolescence angle of Spider-Man it aligned more with becoming an adult for me. It also led me to reading more comics and just digging into deeper layers and themes of the Batman lore.

If Reeves had been doing The Batman in 2005 I probably would've sh** my pants with excitement, and I AM very excited for this movie. It's just more like, awesome- we're getting another potentially great interpretation that will be a big fan pleaser and the legacy will continue with a bang after another "downturn" (IMO). But TDK Trilogy holds a very special place precisely because it was a bit different than what I envisioned and IMO went above and beyond whatever preconceived notions I had in my head of how you could tackle a Batman movie. I'm protective of it for those reasons, but at the same time I totally get and respect that Reeves' version is going to be more definitive for some people (maybe even me) and that's awesome.

 

[The Joker]

A lot of fans have a very surface level idea of what "proper" Batman is, which is why, for example, you still have people crying about how Nolan depicted Gotham, despite it being pretty true to how Gotham generally was pre-1989.

Exactly. They are the people who grew up on Batman post 1989. When you read the comics pre that era, Gotham looks like the most generic city. Sometimes it even resembles New York;

 

[The Batman]

Yup. And the West TV show would just use NYC exterior shots for Gotham.

As for Reeves...putting aside that his film isn't even out yet, I'm not seeing how Reeves is truer to comics/cartoon Batman than his predecessors. Especially after seeing the trailers and reading some of the spoilers.

I'm one of those people who thinks we haven't seen THE definitive Live Action version of Batman yet, and Reeves' version is looking like another Live Action film Batman that will get some aspects of the character dead on, but could be lacking in other aspects. Regardless, I'm sure I'll like the film a lot. Won't be surprised if it's at least as good as BB.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Rewatching this for the first time in what seems like a decade...what they did to Bane is still....an interesting way to adapt him. Selina is obviously the highlight and Talia is...a shame what they do to her.

 

[Another_Fool]

As @The Batman said, people seem to not really acknowledge that Nolans gotham in TDK and TDKR isn't far removed from what was in the comics either. There's numerous examples of New York city being a stand in for the cities in comic books. But hey, that's what happens when Frank Millers work is the only stuff people read these days from Batmans past. Don't get me wrong, I love his work and I think Year One and TDKR are masterpieces, but there's so much more.

Yeah I legit don't understand when people say TDK and TDKR don't feel like the world of Batman. I mean TDKR alone is unmistakably an amalgamation of Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall, No Man's Land and Legacy. If anything, the movie feels like a celebration of Batman and all his comic interpretations in my opinion.

 

[Rick190293]

It's an adaptation with the director's own take applied to it... still respecting the characters core and essence. But a lot of people wants direct translations of them, and althrough isn't a bad thing, it's much more interesting to see a proper translation to the silver screen. I love Batfleck's batsuits (and aesthetics in general), but Pattinson's one looks much more intriguing.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Yeah I legit don't understand when people say TDK and TDKR don't feel like the world of Batman. I mean TDKR alone is unmistakably an amalgamation of Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall, No Man's Land and Legacy. If anything, the movie feels like a celebration of Batman and all his comic interpretations in my opinion.

It's because they're more obsessed with superficial elements of the character and those stories. They overlook how true they are to those stories, but don't care because it's not "on the nose" as something like Snyders work. Another reason is because, let's face, a lot of those people haven't read anything that ISN'T Frank Miller related. we all adore Year One and Dark Knight Returns, but I have my doubts many of those people have actually read the entirety of Nightfall or No Mans Land sadly. That, and stuff from the Dennis 'O Neil/Neal Adams era.

 

[The Joker]

The Batman comic book royalty you guys are talking about there even agree with you;

'Dark Knight' Origins: Filmmakers, Stars And Comic Creators Explain Their Take On The Well-Known Characters

'Batman' Comic Writers Agree: Christopher Nolan 'Got It Right'


Plus here's one I always got a kick out of. The great Grant Morrison said Heath Ledger's Joker diary was full of material he'd written in one of his Joker stories;

'Arkham Asylum' Scribe Grant Morrison Opens Up Heath Ledger's Joker Diary

 

[The Batman]

While I like Hathaway's Catwoman, I wouldn't say she's obviously the highlight of the film. And personal opinions aside, I don't think she caught on in wider pop culture the way Newmar, Kitt, and Pfeiffer did.

 

[Filmfan93]

I know this may come up 10 years too late, but would someone be able to PM me the TDKR Prologue if anyone still keeps that?

Thank you!

 

[Kane52630]

The original version? that's on youtube.

 

[BatLobster]

Bane original prologue voice FTW!

I remember first seeing that with the viral marketing screenings they did. Driving an hour each way for 5 minutes of footage...ah man those were the days. I was immediately entranced by Zimmer's theme for Bane. It was so ominous and badass AF, and I had goosebumps when the chant started kicking in as the mercenaries were attacking the plane. And I don't care, I loved how hammy and cringey Aiden Gillen played it..made it all the more fun to watch him get punched in the throat.

Prologue still slaps, just wish they kept the original voice. Incredible practical setpiece and just a badass way to start a movie and introduce a formidable villain.

 

[I Am The Knight]

It's a great sequence. I really appreciate that Nolan was operating at another level of "filmmaking" with his Dark Knight trilogy, and was willing to make these feel like epic films.

Also fun how the whole sequence became a meme.

 

[Gothamsknight]

anybody remember the first set video of Bane at the Gotham football field? I remember when people heard Hardys voice on the mic, they said he sounded like an old man or something. And then the prologue comes out, and I was like "oh man that's badass!" Such an incredible sequence overall.

 

[BatLobster]

anybody remember the first set video of Bane at the Gotham football field? I remember when people heard Hardys voice on the mic, they said he sounded like an old man or something. And then the prologue comes out, and I was like "oh man that's badass!" Such an incredible sequence overall.

My friend and I took a trip to Pittsburgh to be extras at Heinz field so we were literally in the middle of a take pretending to be scared (I was one closeup away from being a bad Nolan extra ) when Hardy came out and we heard the voice for the first time. Not gonna lie we were trying hard not to crack up! It was funny going online later that day already seeing the internet going crazy about the voice.

 

[Gothamsknight]

My friend and I took a trip to Pittsburgh to be extras at Heinz field so we were literally in the middle of a take pretending to be scared (I was one closeup away from being a bad Nolan extra ) when Hardy came out and we heard the voice for the first time. Not gonna lie we were trying hard not to crack up! It was funny going online later that day already seeing the internet going crazy about the voice.

That is awesome! I'm jealous haha

 

[Filmfan93]

The original version? that's on youtube.

Thanks - I've already seen that video and I think the trailer montage at the end uses an edited, clean version of the audio from the film, which imo breaks the immersion from watching it all with a blurred video and audio lol

I am looking for the raw recording out there.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

My friend and I took a trip to Pittsburgh to be extras at Heinz field so we were literally in the middle of a take pretending to be scared (I was one closeup away from being a bad Nolan extra ) when Hardy came out and we heard the voice for the first time. Not gonna lie we were trying hard not to crack up! It was funny going online later that day already seeing the internet going crazy about the voice.

till this day I have to close my eyes when that reaction shot of the stadium fans show up. I get second hand embarrassment for some reason.

 

[Lily Adler]

The original version? that's on youtube.

Slade Wilson getting killed by Bane... Good times.

 

[BatLobster]

The way CIA says "Bane...." will always never not be amazing to me, haha. It's so deliciously cheese but I love how intrigued he is. Just one simple utterance of his name and you get the impression that Bane is like some sort of ghost that intelligence agencies have been after for years to no avail.