The Tennis Thread - Part 5

[DarthSkywalker]

WTA backs Williams' sexism claim



This is tainting Serena's achievements for me and it would be every bit as bad if any of the male tennis players did it. I hate that McEnroe became so well known amongst non-tennis fans for his "You cannot be serious" and it somehow became a cool thing. I hope Osaka can win more tournaments.

The thing people forget, McEnroe got in a ton of trouble over it. This same ref that gave Serena a lot of rope, gave warnings and penalties to Novak and Murray very quickly in comparison.

 

[Iceman]

The thing people forget, McEnroe got in a ton of trouble over it. This same ref that gave Serena a lot of rope, gave warnings and penalties to Novak and Murray very quickly in comparison.

I didn’t even know that and can’t really remember watching McEnroe play live. This whole situation is really annoying to me. It has totally overshadowed Osaka’s win.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I didn’t even know that and can’t really remember watching McEnroe play live. This whole situation is really annoying to me. It has totally overshadowed Osaka’s win.

FOR THE RECORD: MCENROE'S TANTRUMS AND FINES

Yep. So many people who have no idea what they are talking about warping reality. People are acting like Osaka wasn't kicking her butt at this point. People praising Serena for telling the crowd to not boo, when she is the one who got them to do so in the first place.

 

[jmc]

McEnroe was disqualified from the Aus Open in 1990 for his behaviour, and was penalised numerous times, and was widely panned during his playing time for his actions. Contrary to what people believe his antics only became popular after he was done playing. But that shouldn't matter, there's no sport in the world that has the same standards of behaviour now as what they were 30 years ago. WTA's stance to support Serena playing the woman and mother card is frankly deplorable. Serena's not out for anyone but herself. They are letting their marquee player dictate how this incident should be perceived instead of standing by the umpire and telling Serena to pull her head in and apologise for her behaviour. And yes they've ruined Osaka's win. Poor girl was in tears at the podium.

 

[Brutikus]

The whole "I am a woman hence why I am getting this happen to me " is lame and invalid.

She was losing cause she could not counter a superior opponent and then proceeded to have a tantrum and abuse the Umpire.

All of her violations are validly called out.

It's time she shut up shop and get off court.

 

[Iceman]

FOR THE RECORD: MCENROE'S TANTRUMS AND FINES

Yep. So many people who have no idea what they are talking about warping reality. People are acting like Osaka wasn't kicking her butt at this point. People praising Serena for telling the crowd to not boo, when she is the one who got them to do so in the first place.

Thanks for that. Yep Osaka was a deserving winner and this should have been a big story with her getting her first major win and the first for anyone from her country. She couldn't act in the normal way at all with such a huge thing hanging over the proceedings.

 

[Iceman]

McEnroe was disqualified from the Aus Open in 1990 for his behaviour, and was penalised numerous times, and was widely panned during his playing time for his actions. Contrary to what people believe his antics only became popular after he was done playing. But that shouldn't matter, there's no sport in the world that has the same standards of behaviour now as what they were 30 years ago. WTA's stance to support Serena playing the woman and mother card is frankly deplorable. Serena's not out for anyone but herself. They are letting their marquee player dictate how this incident should be perceived instead of standing by the umpire and telling Serena to pull her head in and apologise for her behaviour. And yes they've ruined Osaka's win. Poor girl was in tears at the podium.

I think I got properly into tennis a bit after all this. Never know he got disqualified from a major which is a huge punishment (and I'm glad it happened to him once). The guy has chilled out a lot now of course and is fine as a commentator which is good to see, but I hope every player who disrespects umpires so much gets punished appropriately. And then umpires are reviewed properly if they perform below the expected standards (but by the authorities following due process, not one prima donna player and their loud fans).

 

[Iceman]

The whole "I am a woman hence why I am getting this happen to me " is lame and invalid.

She was losing cause she could not counter a superior opponent and then proceeded to have a tantrum and abuse the Umpire.

All of her violations are validly called out.

It's time she shut up shop and get off court.

If she was playing against a man the basis of the complaint might at least make some sense (but would still be wrong).

 

[Brutikus]

Forgvie me Iceman,but I am not sure I get what you mean?

 

[jmc]

I tell you what a huge part of the problem is, it's the American media's reaction to this. It's like there's no standards when it comes to accepting referees and umpires decisions from parts of the US public based on some of the articles and on line reaction I've read today, no belief that you have to play to the rules and accept the penalties no matter how wrong the decision may turn out to be be. In a strange way through this incident I almost can see how Trump was elected, because the attitude I'm seeing from that part of the world is that winning at all costs is far more important than playing fair. Screw the opponent, screw the laws, it's about me and what I want.

 

[jmc]

Forgvie me Iceman,but I am not sure I get what you mean?

I'm assuming Iceman is saying if she were playing a man there could have been bias against her.

 

[Iceman]

Forgvie me Iceman,but I am not sure I get what you mean?

I'm assuming Iceman is saying if she were playing a man there could have been bias against her.

Yeah, as she is competing against women, even if an unjust decision is made against her it is only affecting her performance against women. Her fans can call it sexism and that a man wouldn't be treated the same, but it doesn't effectively make any difference as the only one to benefit would be her opponent who is a woman. In the same way if a man is treated better in that situation, the one to lose out would be his opponent, again another man. It would be like a guy from an ethnic minority saying it was racism because the doormen didn't let him into the All England Club but if they let in his twin brother 2 minutes earlier then it doesn't make sense that racism would be the reason he wasn't let in.

 

[jmc]

It doesn't also take into account the referee may very well have done the exact same thing to a male player had they displayed the same behaviour. I honestly don't know where the assumption comes from that the women are judged harsher than the men especially when there's only a hand full of times a year when the men and women play tournaments together. Unless there's statistics that are showing a disproportionate number of penalties being handed out to women in grand slams, but the stats that are going around are saying there were 23 code violations for men at this years Open, and only 9 for women, which I'm assuming Serena contributed to a third of them. So, it's a bit rich saying there's sexism involved when A) the men and women play separately throughout most of the year, and B) men were overwhelming penalised more than the women at this Open.

 

[Brutikus]

Yeah, as she is competing against women, even if an unjust decision is made against her it is only affecting her performance against women. Her fans can call it sexism and that a man wouldn't be treated the same, but it doesn't effectively make any difference as the only one to benefit would be her opponent who is a woman. In the same way if a man is treated better in that situation, the one to lose out would be his opponent, again another man. It would be like a guy from an ethnic minority saying it was racism because the doormen didn't let him into the All England Club but if they let in his twin brother 2 minutes earlier then it doesn't make sense that racism would be the reason he wasn't let in.

Ah gotcha,thanks for that.


up:

 

[RockSP]

The whole "I am a woman hence why I am getting this happen to me " is lame and invalid.

She was losing cause she could not counter a superior opponent and then proceeded to have a tantrum and abuse the Umpire.

All of her violations are validly called out.

It's time she shut up shop and get off court.

Clearly you dislike her but that's a ridiculous statement.

 

[Bim]

How did the crowd react during the trophy ceremony? Usually they are very supportivr of any acts of sportsmanship and friendliness between the finalists.

They booed, which makes it even worse. Serena was a total embarrassment and so was the crowd. Osaka crying and having to apologize for winning? Come on! This proves why i dislike Serena so much, she acts like a brat when she's losing. Venus i've never seen pull some drama like this.

Coach admitted to coaching, and says everyone does it (that's his excuse). So maybe it's time they're more consistent punishing this. Serena was ridiculous. She took a huge risk with her tantrum after the first warning. If she hadnt kept on going and going and going (tennis smash, verbally berating the umpire and calling him a thief among other things), she wouldnt have gotten points and a game taken from her.

Honestly, after that whole debacle, i disconnected myself from the US Open. I felt so let down. On top of that, the USTA and the US Open facebook page started posting stuff that annoyed me even more, thike this:

No act of kindness is ever wasted. #USOpen

http://ms.spr.ly/2018-us-open-Williams-Osaka

Statement from USTA Chairman of the Board and President Katrina Adams on #USOpen Women's Singles Final

Serena Stands Tall After Final Loss #USOpen

Read more: http://ms.spr.ly/Serena-Stands-Tall-After-Fall-Loss

Good news is that Serena was fined USD$17,000 for her outburst though. Let's hope she learns her lesson, cause the backlash is huge atm. She's a champion and she should know better than to act like a spoiled big baby.

 

[Bim]

Just like how Rafa is always "injured" when he loses.

Actually, Rafa pulled out of the semi-finals of Davis Cup too (Spain vs France), which was the reason he wasnt playing Laver Cup this time around (what a shameee). So suggesting he faked the injury is a bit on the hater side lol. I think i read somewhere Rafa will be out of competition for a month and the issue is a lesion the patellar tendon.

 

[Aximili86]

Yeah, gotta love the McEnroe comparisons. I'm not even some hardcore tennis junkie and even I know McEnroe got plenty of heat from the man over his outbursts. Hell, it was probably half the reason he became such a big name along with his skill, the "bad boy" schtick, the guy cultivated it intentionally and didn't mind giving up the points or cash as penalty. People seem to be pretending now he just got away with it.

Sampras, Agassi, Hewitt, all of those guys ran hot during matches and got called up on it frequently. Who's the young dude now always throwing hissy-fits, Kirgios or something? Last time I checked, dude, last time I checked, major problems with the tennis fuzz over bad sportsmanship stuff.

It's also ignoring this isn't the first time Serena's done this, it's just an extreme example of it. She's pulled the "you're a hater", "this is racism" stuff at the people in the chair previously. Three times as cited by a couple of articles on google here, the common denominator in all being she was losing at the time.

It's just that Michael Jordan hardcore-competitive-person thing. She's a superstar, her performance isn't living up to what she'd wanted at that point in time, so out come the knives.

 

[Bim]

The big problem with Serena's situation, in contrast with maybe some of the cases of the "bad boys" of tennis, is that in most cases these guys probably stopped after the first warning (except probably McEnroe). Serena had two more violations. She took a huge risk going on and on at the umpire with two violations already against her.

Interestingly enough, a fourth violation is forfeiting the match.

The first violation results in a warning; the second, a point penalty; the third, a game penalty; and the fourth, forfeiting the match.

Not surprising, McEnroe had a disqualification due to getting a fourth warning. I went on to read up about disqualifications, and look at the list that came up in wikipedia:

Disqualifications in tennis can occur for unsporting conduct.

ATP rules state that:

Players shall not at any time physically abuse any official, opponent, spectator or other person within the precincts of the tournament site. For purposes of this rule, physical abuse is the unauthorized touching of an official, opponent, and spectator or other person.

Disqualifications in tennis are relatively rare:

• In 1990 John McEnroe was disqualified in his fourth-round match against Mikael Pernfors at the Australian Open for three code violations.[1]
• In 1995 Tim Henman was disqualified for hitting a ball girl with a shot.[2]
• In 1996 Irina Spîrlea was disqualified for abusive language directed at an official.[3]
• In 2007 Anastasia Rodionova was disqualified for hitting a ball at spectators cheering her opponent Angelique Kerber. Kerber was awarded the match 4–6, 6–4, 1–0.[4]
• In 2012 David Nalbandian was disqualified for injuring an official after kicking an advertising board.[5]
• In 2017 Denis Shapovalov was disqualified after hitting the chair umpire with a ball hit in anger.

Geez, Anastasia took it far! Wow.

 

[Donner]

Interesting article about this: Serena Williams' US Open controversy comes down to these two questions

I'm not saying it's my opinion, but it's not exactly a secret that women's tempers and men's tempers are treated differently. It's not ladylike to be mad. And a lot of male tennis players have come to Serena's defense.

 

[Donner]

The big problem with Serena's situation, in contrast with maybe some of the cases of the "bad boys" of tennis, is that in most cases these guys probably stopped after the first warning (except probably McEnroe). Serena had two more violations. She took a huge risk going on and on at the umpire with two violations already against her.

Interestingly enough, a fourth violation is forfeiting the match.


Not surprising, McEnroe had a disqualification due to getting a fourth warning. I went on to read up about disqualifications, and look at the list that came up in wikipedia:


Geez, Anastasia took it far! Wow.

But the first violation, coaching, was crap.

Also, those disqualifications you mentioned were mostly for effing violence! Hitting someone with a ball is flat out ridiculous and warrants a disqualification. I don't believe Serena's behaviour warranted a game penalty. The point isn't that Osaka would have won anyways (which I think she would have), the point is that guys get more leeway. They even admit it themselves.

Serena said stupid ****, no doubt about it. But the ref overstepped.

 

[Bim]

Well, that's the reason for the debate: whether the coaching violation was fair or not. I believe Nadal has gotten coaching violation warnings in the past, not to mention the time violations. I think the issue is that the coaching violations arent handed out consistently, especially if "everyone" does it, like Serena's coach said. But the thing is, even if everyone does it, her coach admitted to coaching, which is officially a no-no and against the rules. So the warning was technically correct.

If i were Serena i would have filed a complaint and taken action off the court. She's responsible for the racket throwing and all the stuff she said. She's a veteran pro; she should know better.

This chair umpire is a very strict and nitpicky one, so i'm not surprised he's the one involved. He rarely lets anything slide.

I didnt insinuate Serena was violent, i just was curious about disqualifications and posted that list cause i found McEnroe's disqualification due to getting a fourth violation.

 

[Donner]

I think Serena got a raw deal. I'll side with the male players that also state this. She definitely shouldn't have pulled the mom card, but I think gender did play a factor here.

 

[Brutikus]

Clearly you dislike her but that's a ridiculous statement.

What I clearly dislike is her rubbbish behaviour and given her age her time playing is closer to an end than ever before so it is not ridiculous at all.


She's losing already not only in her stats but her actual prestige as a player is now degraded from this event

 

[Aximili86]

But the first violation, coaching, was crap.

Dude, her coach admitted he did it, was trying to send her signals/advice from the stands. That's against the rules, even if she wasn't looking at him.

Her issue should be with her coach, if he was attempting something like that without her knowing. Any coach is going to know what you can/can't do - if Serena's not complicit in directing him to coach her that way, fine, most people are going to give her the benefit on the doubt on that. He still did it though.

The right thing to do is just not make a scene then and there - accept the call, complain about the decision afterward in the press conference. You get up in the guy's face, call him a sexist or imply he's a racist, and of course things are going to escalate. Every single sport has questionable calls by the ref/umpire, players are expected to accept the calls even if they disagree with them, they're the authority on it.

She felt the need to go down the "men aren't penalized for this!" road, and while there may be precedent for that with this specific umpire (anyone know? have male players/coaches been guilty of this same Serena-and-coach stuff before with this same guy supervising and he hasn't called them on it?), but generally speaking in the tennis world the personal accosting of the guy in charge afterward is penalized, guy or girl doesn't come into it. Yes, male players have approached the chair & done it (probably more than the girls, honestly), but they don't just walk with no consequences for doing it.