The Tennis Thread - Part 5

This is what i found on wikipedia regarding Carlos Ramos previous controversies:
Ramos has been involved in several high-profile disputes with tennis players.[4]

During the 2016 French Open, Ramos issued a code violation to Nick Kyrgios after the latter shouted at a towel boy during a match.[4][8] Kyrgios continued to clash with Ramos after the violation was issued, stating later that Ramos was operating on a double standard while claiming his opponent (Marco Cecchinato) was also committing violation-worthy offenses.[8]

At the 2016 Rio Olympics Ramos issued a code violation to Andy Murray after Murray criticized Ramos' "stupid umpiring".[9][4]

During the 2017 French Open, Andy Murray received two warnings and then a time violation penalty from Ramos.[10] Murray noted that he had been in violation of the controversial time rule and described Ramos as a "very good umpire", but criticized the penalty.[10] Ramos also gave Novak Djokovic a fault after Djokovic committed multiple time violations. Djokovic then yelled to himself in Serbian and flipped a tennis ball at a ballboy behind him, leading to Ramos penalizing him for unsportsmanlike conduct.[11]

Also found this It's not just Serena: how umpire Carlos Ramos has clashed with players
Ramos also has a reputation as a stickler for the rules. At last year’s French Open, he drew criticism from the eventual champion, Rafael Nafal after they argued during a fourth-round match. Ramos gave Nadal two warnings for slow play, and the Spaniard felt he was being unfairly treated.

“I say it with sadness, but he is an umpire who scrutinises me more and who fixates on me more,” Nadal said after the match. “He also pressured me about coaching. I have respect for him and all I ask is for that to be reciprocated.

“The umpires are here to analyse the match and they are not here to use the stopwatch. There are some who like to take part in the matches more and who like to put more pressure on than others. If you want to see good tennis, you have to let the players breathe a little.”

Williams’s sister, Venus, has a history with Ramos too. At the 2016 French Open he accused the elder Williams of receiving coaching during a match, the same offence he penalized Serena for on Saturday. Like her sister, Venus denied she had cheated. “I’m 36 years old,” she said. “I play fair.”

Another article regarding coart violations in the past: In tennis, no shortage of temper tantrums, tirades, and smashed rackets - CNN
....The drama wasn't the first time Williams has fallen foul of the officials at the US Open. During her 2009 semifinal against Belgian Kim Clijsters she received a point penalty at match point for unleashing a tirade against a lineswoman. The point penalty came at match point, meaning the match went to Clijsters without another play taking place.

In her complaint to the umpire Saturday and later to tournament organizers and reporters, Williams accused Ramos of sexism, saying "there are men out here who do a lot worse, but because I'm a woman you're going to take this away from me? That is not right."

A viewing of past bad behavior on court shows players -- both male and female -- losing points, being fined, and losing matches for bursts of temper and foul language.
At last year's French Open, Djokovic was docked a first serve and later given a warning for unsportsmanlike behavior for telling the same umpire "you're losing your mind," after a call Ramos made that infuriated the Serb.

American Jeff Tarango, unable to stop himself from responding to goading from the crowd during his 1995 Wimbledon match with German Alexander Mronz looked over at the stands and said: "Oh, shut up," earning him a code violation for an audible obscenity.

He argued with the umpire that his words couldn't be considered to be obscene, called for a supervisor to intervene, while telling the umpire: "You are the most corrupt official in the game and you can't do that."

After another code violation for verbal abuse, Tarango lost the match and stormed off the court.

During one US Open, Andre Agassi got a warning for an audible obscenity for something he was about to say as he approached the umpire, but thought better of it and started to walk away. After hearing the umpire penalize him, he called him a "son of a *****." Play went on however, with no further remonstration from the chair.

There are myriad moments of racket abuse. Cypriot Marcos Baghdatis achieved eternal internet fame for an epic racket smash during the 2012 Australian Open. During a break he smashed four rackets in under a minute. He went on to lose the match and pay a $1,250 fine.

The International Tennis Federation sets out in its Code of Conduct what it considers violations. It defines unsportsmanlike behavior as "any misconduct by a player that is clearly abusive or detrimental to the Competition, the ITF or the sport of tennis."

A first offense is usually met with a warning, a second by a point penalty, and a third with the loss of a game. A supervisor is summoned to determine whether any violations after the third warrant a default.

In some cases, the players have gone from zero to default without anything in between.

Argentinian David Nalbandian was disqualified from the final of the Aegon Championship in 2005 after he kicked an advertising board which broke apart and injured the shin of a line judge. Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) Supervisor Tom Barnes said he had little choice but to "declare an immediate default."

Other players who've defaulted a match through unruly behavior include Bulgarian Grigor Dimitrov, who destroyed three rackets during the final of the Istanbul Open against Argentine Diego Schwartzmann in 2016.

One of the most notable tennis players to ever default a match was John McEnroe. At the 1990 Australian Open he got his first warning for intimidating a lineswoman who called his ball out. He stood in front of her, bouncing a ball on his racket and staring her down.

Later, after losing a point, he hurled his racket to the ground and a loud crack echoed through the court, earning him another code violation. After insisting to the umpire and tournament officials that he would continue to play with the damaged racket McEnroe slung insults over his shoulder as he walked away.

That earned him another violation -- this one for verbal abuse -- and the entire match went to his opponent, Swede Mikael Pernfors.
 
So he's not consistent. Sometimes he gives out coaching violations, sometimes it's just a warning.

Andre Agassi called an umpire a son of a ***** and didn't get a violation for that. Serena called the umpire a thief.

Racket smashing is common. And a lot of times, the players aren't penalized for it, as evidenced by the comment above. 4 rackets in under a minute and only a $1250 fine. Interesting.

Like I said before, some of the male players have come to Serena's defense by saying they've said and done a lot worse without receiving penalties. Maybe it's just because this particular umpire sucks at his job and is always inconsistent, regardless of gender, or he had a thing for Serena that day. I still think she got a raw deal.
 
That seems to sum it up pretty succinctly then, Bim. Sounds like this guy's just a hardass by-the-book type who chooses to come down harder on people than certain other refs do.

Which, in and of itself, there's nothing wrong with. All people in these positions have their own styles and levels of severity/assertiveness with calls.

Elektra, I know a couple of male players have come out defending her, but that seems sort of a different issue than with this specific ref guy: have male players got in his face specifically like that and he hasn't handed them a penalty? The accusation from Serena was that this guy's biased based on gender. Not sure there's really any evidence of that, given the aforementioned citing of him smacking down Kyrgios & Nadal over similar bad behavior, and quite recently in the scheme of things.

I'm sure there are examples of smashing rackets going unchecked over the years, totally. Also plenty where it has been punished. Keep in mind the racket tantrum wasn't an isolated case in this, you combine it with the prior verbal dust-up, her behavior, it all starts pretty much painting a pattern of her not exactly conducting herself as you're supposed to. She's got a history of this stuff too, even if this was a particularly strong example of it. That's not to say other players don't, there are plenty of these hot-heads out there (basically comes with the territory, plenty of these people are ultra-competitive and with massive egos, it's why the are where they are, on top of the sports world), it just seems a little disingenuous to say it's general practice to let them get away with it. Even if there are instances of it, it's not the norm: dudes are pulled up on this type of stuff all the damn time.
 
What I clearly dislike is her rubbbish behaviour and given her age her time playing is closer to an end than ever before so it is not ridiculous at all.


She's losing already not only in her stats but her actual prestige as a player is now degraded from this event

She can obviously still play very well, as she made it to the final. So yes it's ridiculous to suggest she should stop playing because of this event. She isn't the first athlete to throw a tantrum and she won't be the last.
 
No, It's not ridiculous at all.

Her star is waning and she will be out of tennis altogether sooner than later.
 
Actually, Rafa pulled out of the semi-finals of Davis Cup too (Spain vs France), which was the reason he wasnt playing Laver Cup this time around (what a shameee). So suggesting he faked the injury is a bit on the hater side lol. I think i read somewhere Rafa will be out of competition for a month and the issue is a lesion the patellar tendon.
I am not saying he isn't actually injured this time. I am talking about how he claims injury almost always whenever he loses. Which he does. Everyone on the tour is injured.
 
I think Serena got a raw deal. I'll side with the male players that also state this. She definitely shouldn't have pulled the mom card, but I think gender did play a factor here.
How did it play a factor though? What happened that showed this, other then her claiming it out of nowhere? This is the person who claimed she couldn't be a cheater because she has a daughter. :funny:
 
I am not saying he isn't actually injured this time. I am talking about how he claims injury almost always whenever he loses. Which he does. Everyone on the tour is injured.
Well, considering how many injuries the guy has had in his career, i would say his claims are mostly on point though and not simple excuses. I dont see him claiming injuries whenever he loses, but oh well...

I believe James Blake and Andy Roddick are the ones that have sided with Serena so far saying they have done worse.

Ramos has been a hard*** with men too, so i just dont really buy into him having a bias only towards women. He's tougher on the higher ranked players it seems though, making calls others would have let slide.

Meanwhile, no one speaks about the horrible experience Osaka had, having her first grandslam celebration ruined:
Naomi Osaka admits she was 'a little bit sad' as US Open win ended in boos

.... “I felt a little bit sad because I wasn’t really sure if [the crowd] were booing at me or if it wasn’t the outcome that they wanted,” said Osaka on Monday in an interview with NBC’s Today. “I also could sympathise because I’ve been a fan of Serena my whole life. And I knew how badly the crowd wanted her to win, I don’t know, I was just really emotional up there.”

The 20-year-old apologised after the match, and on Monday said she felt like the crowd had not got the ending they wanted. “I felt like everyone was sort of unhappy up there and I know that it wasn’t really … the ending wasn’t what people wanted it to be,” she said. “In my dreams, I won in a very competitive match so I don’t know, I just felt very emotional and I felt like I had to apologise.”
 
Andre Agassi called an umpire a son of a ***** and didn't get a violation for that. Serena called the umpire a thief.
Andre got a warning, it appears it was his first violation. From the above article: During one US Open, Andre Agassi got a warning for an audible obscenity for something he was about to say as he approached the umpire, but thought better of it and started to walk away. After hearing the umpire penalize him, he called him a "son of a *****." Play went on however, with no further remonstration from the chair.

So he's not consistent. Sometimes he gives out coaching violations, sometimes it's just a warning.
Remember, first violation you get a warning, second violation you get a point taken, third violation you get a game taken, and a fourth violation and you lose the match. Punishment depends on how many violations the player has, it's not that the umpire is capricious.
 
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That is what is driving me crazy more then anything. He didn't penalize her a game penalty randomly. It was her third violation. Coaching was a warning, breaking the racket was a point penalty. The natural progression is to the game penalty after that. Most would have stopped before the second violation, but Serena was looking for an excuse for why Osaka was destroying her.

Also, for someone who was literally complaining her character was being attacked, it is amazing that she just thought it was fine to attack the ref's character unironically.
 
It is a very strange day when Stephen A. Smith is not only right, but in the face of Max Kellerman. But yeah, he is 100% right here.

 
Yeah, agreed DarthSkywalker. And again, i'm not saying Serena couldnt challenge the coaching violation, she obviously could have, and should have if she felt it was unfair. Go for it, protest it. But let it go, make another complaint after the match, and get back to focusing on the match. I would think it must really take a player out of a match to have these heated exchanges during the match and the have to refocus, and Serena was already in trouble because of Osaka's game.
 
Yeah, agreed DarthSkywalker. And again, i'm not saying Serena couldnt challenge the coaching violation, she obviously could have, and should have if she felt it was unfair. Go for it, protest it. But let it go, make another complaint after the match, and get back to focusing on the match. I would think it must really take a player out of a match to have these heated exchanges during the match and the have to refocus, and Serena was already in trouble because of Osaka's game.
That is how she wants it to appear though. That she was "cheated". That the match was taken from her, that she did not lose it. Which is why the situations in which this has happened have mirrored each other. Matches where she is losing and clearly being outplayed.

Also, on the coaching violation. It was happening, and her coach admitted it. Furthermore, she clearly saw him. She saw what his hands were doing, so to say she didn't seem him is so dishonest on her part. How else did she know his thumbs were up?
 
I do think tennis will have to look at the coaching during matches situation more closely, and either allow it, or start handing EVERYONE violations, no exceptions, until the message is loud and clear: no coaching during matches is allowed in any way. If it's a rule they want to enforce, they're gonna have to get all umpires to be jerks about it lol, but it might prevent situations like this, where the violation gets called and it's called unfair by some, even though it IS the rule.

I do believe women are allowed coaches on court and coaching during changovers in a lot of tournaments, no? Grandslams dont allow it though.
 
I do think tennis will have to look at the coaching during matches situation more closely, and either allow it, or start handing EVERYONE violations, no exceptions, until the message is loud and clear: no coaching during matches is allowed in any way. If it's a rule they want to enforce, they're gonna have to get all umpires to be jerks about it lol, but it might prevent situations like this, where the violation gets called and it's called unfair by some, even though it IS the rule.

I do believe women are allowed coaches on court and coaching during changovers in a lot of tournaments, no? Grandslams dont allow it though.
I can't remember if it is the entire WTA season (outside of Grand Slams) or just the summer hard court season, but yeah, they do allow on court coaching on the women's tour. Like the coach can come down during change overs and between sets to speak to their player.
 
Andre got a warning, it appears it was his first violation. From the above article: During one US Open, Andre Agassi got a warning for an audible obscenity for something he was about to say as he approached the umpire, but thought better of it and started to walk away. After hearing the umpire penalize him, he called him a "son of a *****." Play went on however, with no further remonstration from the chair.


Remember, first violation you get a warning, second violation you get a point taken, third violation you get a game taken, and a fourth violation and you lose the match. Punishment depends on how many violations the player has, it's not that the umpire is capricious.

No, you read that incorrectly. Agassi called the umpire a son of a ***** AFTER he received a violation for something else. He heard the umpire penalize him and then called him names.
 
No, you read that incorrectly. Agassi called the umpire a son of a ***** AFTER he received a violation for something else. He heard the umpire penalize him and then called him names.
I pasted what the article said.

He stopped what he was going to say halfway and turned around (whatever it was, the umpire heard it, i cant hear it in this video) and got the warning and then said sob. He didnt say more after that, so there was no further name calling from Andre.

 
Okay. He didn't get penalized for saying son of a *****, which is worse than thief in my opinion. But whatever.
 
No, It's not ridiculous at all.

Her star is waning and she will be out of tennis altogether sooner than later.

:confused: Using that criteria, Lebron James should retire right now.
 
Okay. He didn't get penalized for saying son of a *****, which is worse than thief in my opinion. But whatever.
Serena got that last penalty because she wouldn't stop. She went and played and came back and wouldn't stop. She told the umpire that he would never be on "her court" again. He gave her a lot of leeway. She didn't care and just kept going.
 
Bloody hell, the cult of Serena is as bad as the cult of Trump online. I feel like the world has gone ****ing mad over this in ways that are completely disproportionate to what actually happened. It's like everybody's happy with the rules, except for when it's the championship match. Do any of these people watch sport? If it's a rule in Round 1, it's a rule in the Final.
 
Andre got a warning, it appears it was his first violation. From the above article: During one US Open, Andre Agassi got a warning for an audible obscenity for something he was about to say as he approached the umpire, but thought better of it and started to walk away. After hearing the umpire penalize him, he called him a "son of a *****." Play went on however, with no further remonstration from the chair.


Remember, first violation you get a warning, second violation you get a point taken, third violation you get a game taken, and a fourth violation and you lose the match. Punishment depends on how many violations the player has, it's not that the umpire is capricious.


How does it go from a game to forfeiting the whole match? Shouldn't it be at least a set taken first?
 
:confused: Using that criteria, Lebron James should retire right now.

Going out top of your game is better than the opposite.


Serena got that last penalty because she wouldn't stop. She went and played and came back and wouldn't stop. She told the umpire that he would never be on "her court" again. He gave her a lot of leeway. She didn't care and just kept going.

That part was the most ridiculous comment she made,it's not now nor never will be "her court"

Shows the arrogrance of her.
 
I feel horrible for Osaka. The whole focus is on Serena’s poor sportsmanship (regardless if others may have done worse or not). For Osaka to feel sad after winning a grand slam should make Serena feel frankly ashamed. I am not saying to stop discussion of fair treatment between male and female tennis players but it’s pretty damn sad and pathetic when a new champion feels a little sad after winning because her idol player is behaving poorly. It’s ok to protest but at least control your emotions as best as possible which clearly didn’t happen here. Be better than the other players who have done worse. Set an example and be better than the crap behavior of the previously mentioned male players.
 
Okay. He didn't get penalized for saying son of a *****, which is worse than thief in my opinion. But whatever.


Not really. "Son of a b*tch" is a frustrated insult for what's going on, hardly calling into question the ump's character or asserting he's being robbed. It shouldn't happen either, don't cuss out a ref, but it's a little different.

Like, an NBA player muttering "****er!" under his breath at a ref's call and the ref hears it, probably isn't getting a tech foul. He gets in the ref's face and openly questions his legitimacy in the job, tech foul. Same principle, and sounds like tennis is a bit more rigid with this stuff.

Again, to use the McEnroe example, he pulled the Serena crap all the time. But he didnt "get away with it".

As has been covered previously by Bim, this exact same umpire has pulled up Kyrgios & Nadal over really similar behavior lately. Difference seems to be, they didn't keep on escalating things and therefore it didn't go as far with penalties quite as severe. Hard to make a sexism argument in light of that, this exact same guy is on record doing the same to the guys, over coaching and bad behavior.
 

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