The Tennis Thread - Part 5

Discussion in 'Sports' started by Thread Manager, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. Bim Registered

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    This is what i found on wikipedia regarding Carlos Ramos previous controversies:
    Also found this It's not just Serena: how umpire Carlos Ramos has clashed with players
    Another article regarding coart violations in the past: In tennis, no shortage of temper tantrums, tirades, and smashed rackets - CNN
     
  2. Elektra1 Dark Side

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    So he's not consistent. Sometimes he gives out coaching violations, sometimes it's just a warning.

    Andre Agassi called an umpire a son of a ***** and didn't get a violation for that. Serena called the umpire a thief.

    Racket smashing is common. And a lot of times, the players aren't penalized for it, as evidenced by the comment above. 4 rackets in under a minute and only a $1250 fine. Interesting.

    Like I said before, some of the male players have come to Serena's defense by saying they've said and done a lot worse without receiving penalties. Maybe it's just because this particular umpire sucks at his job and is always inconsistent, regardless of gender, or he had a thing for Serena that day. I still think she got a raw deal.
     
  3. Aximili86 Registered

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    That seems to sum it up pretty succinctly then, Bim. Sounds like this guy's just a hardass by-the-book type who chooses to come down harder on people than certain other refs do.

    Which, in and of itself, there's nothing wrong with. All people in these positions have their own styles and levels of severity/assertiveness with calls.

    Elektra, I know a couple of male players have come out defending her, but that seems sort of a different issue than with this specific ref guy: have male players got in his face specifically like that and he hasn't handed them a penalty? The accusation from Serena was that this guy's biased based on gender. Not sure there's really any evidence of that, given the aforementioned citing of him smacking down Kyrgios & Nadal over similar bad behavior, and quite recently in the scheme of things.

    I'm sure there are examples of smashing rackets going unchecked over the years, totally. Also plenty where it has been punished. Keep in mind the racket tantrum wasn't an isolated case in this, you combine it with the prior verbal dust-up, her behavior, it all starts pretty much painting a pattern of her not exactly conducting herself as you're supposed to. She's got a history of this stuff too, even if this was a particularly strong example of it. That's not to say other players don't, there are plenty of these hot-heads out there (basically comes with the territory, plenty of these people are ultra-competitive and with massive egos, it's why the are where they are, on top of the sports world), it just seems a little disingenuous to say it's general practice to let them get away with it. Even if there are instances of it, it's not the norm: dudes are pulled up on this type of stuff all the damn time.
     
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  4. RockSP MYTH SMITH ˆž∞!!!

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    She can obviously still play very well, as she made it to the final. So yes it's ridiculous to suggest she should stop playing because of this event. She isn't the first athlete to throw a tantrum and she won't be the last.
     
  5. Brutikus Pax per Tyrannidem

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    No, It's not ridiculous at all.

    Her star is waning and she will be out of tennis altogether sooner than later.
     
  6. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    I am not saying he isn't actually injured this time. I am talking about how he claims injury almost always whenever he loses. Which he does. Everyone on the tour is injured.
     
  7. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    How did it play a factor though? What happened that showed this, other then her claiming it out of nowhere? This is the person who claimed she couldn't be a cheater because she has a daughter. :funny:
     
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  8. Bim Registered

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    Well, considering how many injuries the guy has had in his career, i would say his claims are mostly on point though and not simple excuses. I dont see him claiming injuries whenever he loses, but oh well...

    I believe James Blake and Andy Roddick are the ones that have sided with Serena so far saying they have done worse.

    Ramos has been a hard*** with men too, so i just dont really buy into him having a bias only towards women. He's tougher on the higher ranked players it seems though, making calls others would have let slide.

    Meanwhile, no one speaks about the horrible experience Osaka had, having her first grandslam celebration ruined:
    Naomi Osaka admits she was 'a little bit sad' as US Open win ended in boos

     
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  9. Bim Registered

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    Andre got a warning, it appears it was his first violation. From the above article: During one US Open, Andre Agassi got a warning for an audible obscenity for something he was about to say as he approached the umpire, but thought better of it and started to walk away. After hearing the umpire penalize him, he called him a "son of a *****." Play went on however, with no further remonstration from the chair.


    Remember, first violation you get a warning, second violation you get a point taken, third violation you get a game taken, and a fourth violation and you lose the match. Punishment depends on how many violations the player has, it's not that the umpire is capricious.
     
    #84 Bim, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  10. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    That is what is driving me crazy more then anything. He didn't penalize her a game penalty randomly. It was her third violation. Coaching was a warning, breaking the racket was a point penalty. The natural progression is to the game penalty after that. Most would have stopped before the second violation, but Serena was looking for an excuse for why Osaka was destroying her.

    Also, for someone who was literally complaining her character was being attacked, it is amazing that she just thought it was fine to attack the ref's character unironically.
     
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  11. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    It is a very strange day when Stephen A. Smith is not only right, but in the face of Max Kellerman. But yeah, he is 100% right here.

     
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  12. Bim Registered

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    Yeah, agreed DarthSkywalker. And again, i'm not saying Serena couldnt challenge the coaching violation, she obviously could have, and should have if she felt it was unfair. Go for it, protest it. But let it go, make another complaint after the match, and get back to focusing on the match. I would think it must really take a player out of a match to have these heated exchanges during the match and the have to refocus, and Serena was already in trouble because of Osaka's game.
     
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  13. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    That is how she wants it to appear though. That she was "cheated". That the match was taken from her, that she did not lose it. Which is why the situations in which this has happened have mirrored each other. Matches where she is losing and clearly being outplayed.

    Also, on the coaching violation. It was happening, and her coach admitted it. Furthermore, she clearly saw him. She saw what his hands were doing, so to say she didn't seem him is so dishonest on her part. How else did she know his thumbs were up?
     
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  14. Bim Registered

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    I do think tennis will have to look at the coaching during matches situation more closely, and either allow it, or start handing EVERYONE violations, no exceptions, until the message is loud and clear: no coaching during matches is allowed in any way. If it's a rule they want to enforce, they're gonna have to get all umpires to be jerks about it lol, but it might prevent situations like this, where the violation gets called and it's called unfair by some, even though it IS the rule.

    I do believe women are allowed coaches on court and coaching during changovers in a lot of tournaments, no? Grandslams dont allow it though.
     
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  15. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    I can't remember if it is the entire WTA season (outside of Grand Slams) or just the summer hard court season, but yeah, they do allow on court coaching on the women's tour. Like the coach can come down during change overs and between sets to speak to their player.
     
  16. Elektra1 Dark Side

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    No, you read that incorrectly. Agassi called the umpire a son of a ***** AFTER he received a violation for something else. He heard the umpire penalize him and then called him names.
     
  17. Bim Registered

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    I pasted what the article said.

    He stopped what he was going to say halfway and turned around (whatever it was, the umpire heard it, i cant hear it in this video) and got the warning and then said sob. He didnt say more after that, so there was no further name calling from Andre.

     
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  18. Elektra1 Dark Side

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    Okay. He didn't get penalized for saying son of a *****, which is worse than thief in my opinion. But whatever.
     
  19. RockSP MYTH SMITH ˆž∞!!!

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    :confused: Using that criteria, Lebron James should retire right now.
     
  20. DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Serena got that last penalty because she wouldn't stop. She went and played and came back and wouldn't stop. She told the umpire that he would never be on "her court" again. He gave her a lot of leeway. She didn't care and just kept going.
     
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  21. jmc away for a while

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    Bloody hell, the cult of Serena is as bad as the cult of Trump online. I feel like the world has gone ****ing mad over this in ways that are completely disproportionate to what actually happened. It's like everybody's happy with the rules, except for when it's the championship match. Do any of these people watch sport? If it's a rule in Round 1, it's a rule in the Final.
     
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  22. Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    How does it go from a game to forfeiting the whole match? Shouldn't it be at least a set taken first?
     
  23. Brutikus Pax per Tyrannidem

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    Going out top of your game is better than the opposite.


    That part was the most ridiculous comment she made,it's not now nor never will be "her court"

    Shows the arrogrance of her.
     
  24. Manasrepublic Registered

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    I feel horrible for Osaka. The whole focus is on Serena’s poor sportsmanship (regardless if others may have done worse or not). For Osaka to feel sad after winning a grand slam should make Serena feel frankly ashamed. I am not saying to stop discussion of fair treatment between male and female tennis players but it’s pretty damn sad and pathetic when a new champion feels a little sad after winning because her idol player is behaving poorly. It’s ok to protest but at least control your emotions as best as possible which clearly didn’t happen here. Be better than the other players who have done worse. Set an example and be better than the crap behavior of the previously mentioned male players.
     
  25. Aximili86 Registered

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    Not really. "Son of a b*tch" is a frustrated insult for what's going on, hardly calling into question the ump's character or asserting he's being robbed. It shouldn't happen either, don't cuss out a ref, but it's a little different.

    Like, an NBA player muttering "****er!" under his breath at a ref's call and the ref hears it, probably isn't getting a tech foul. He gets in the ref's face and openly questions his legitimacy in the job, tech foul. Same principle, and sounds like tennis is a bit more rigid with this stuff.

    Again, to use the McEnroe example, he pulled the Serena crap all the time. But he didnt "get away with it".

    As has been covered previously by Bim, this exact same umpire has pulled up Kyrgios & Nadal over really similar behavior lately. Difference seems to be, they didn't keep on escalating things and therefore it didn't go as far with penalties quite as severe. Hard to make a sexism argument in light of that, this exact same guy is on record doing the same to the guys, over coaching and bad behavior.
     
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