BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 4

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So suicide squad is going to take place after bvs?

I believe so... I think originally people were saying that SS took place before BVS, but I think its actually after BVS.
In the trailer Amanda Waller does say " Superman must have been some sort of beacon for them to creep back from the shadows"

I am assuming she is talking about BVS and not MOS.
 
I totally understood all the points in the film that Snyder was trying to make, including the subtext behind "Martha" and why Bats and Supes came together because of it. It was well acted and well written. It was just dumb. It had no business being in the film. But if that were the worst thing that the film had to offer, I could have dealt with it. Its more of an "eye-roll" kind of thing. It certainly isn't a dealbreaker to enjoying the movie, it's just not a good plot twist or storytelling device. It's just dumb.

Like I said, the biggest problem is Snyder. He is an artist, he wants to paint an inspiring, amazing visual picture with superheroes. That's great and I'll agree, the man has an amazing, creative mind....for painting pictures. The film looks amazing. Optically, it is breathtaking at times. He just can't tell a story.

The comparisons to TDK and Nolan are unfounded. Nolan is a gifted storyteller, he directed a film who's story was told backwards and it was brilliant. Snyder is not on his level whatsoever. Nolan can take a script that's full of a million different ideas and concepts and knock it out of the park. Noland understands narrative, he knows when to slow down, when to go fast to develop the plot properly, he understands comedic timing, he understands character, he understands how to use music.

Snyder just doesn't. Snyder doesn't execute his concepts in a smart or enjoyable way. It's been the hallmark of his films, and as he has gotten more creative license, his films have gotten worse. Listen, it's really just the difference between Snyder and other directors. You can understand what's going on in his films. The scenes and dialog move you along from A to Z, but what BvS really amounts to is Snyder throwing incredible visuals on screen around a mish-mash of narrative elements regarding revenge, fate, power and who should wield it, taking responsibility, without actual crafting a good story. It's a story, just not a good one. Snyder, with his storytelling style, would benefit from a smaller, tighter script so he can do justice to the more on the important elements in the film.
 
What terrifies me is if Superman is too dark now, what does that mean for what Snyder is going to do for his resurrection?
 
I totally understood all the points in the film that Snyder was trying to make, including the subtext behind "Martha" and why Bats and Supes came together because of it. It was well acted and well written. It was just dumb. It had no business being in the film. But if that were the worst thing that the film had to offer, I could have dealt with it. Its more of an "eye-roll" kind of thing. It certainly isn't a dealbreaker to enjoying the movie, it's just not a good plot twist or storytelling device. It's just dumb.

Like I said, the biggest problem is Snyder. He is an artist, he wants to paint an inspiring, amazing visual picture with superheroes. That's great and I'll agree, the man has an amazing, creative mind....for painting pictures. The film looks amazing. Optically, it is breathtaking at times. He just can't tell a story.

The comparisons to TDK and Nolan are unfounded. Nolan is a gifted storyteller, he directed a film who's story was told backwards and it was brilliant. Snyder is not on his level whatsoever. Nolan can take a script that's full of a million different ideas and concepts and knock it out of the park. Noland understands narrative, he knows when to slow down, when to go fast to develop the plot properly, he understands comedic timing, he understands character, he understands how to use music.

Snyder just doesn't. Snyder doesn't execute his concepts in a smart or enjoyable way. It's been the hallmark of his films, and as he has gotten more creative license, his films have gotten worse. Listen, it's really just the difference between Snyder and other directors. You can understand what's going on in his films. The scenes and dialog move you along from A to Z, but what BvS really amounts to is Snyder throwing incredible visuals on screen around a mish-mash of narrative elements regarding revenge, fate, power and who should wield it, taking responsibility, without actual crafting a good story. It's a story, just not a good one. Snyder, with his storytelling style, would benefit from a smaller, tighter script so he can do justice to the more on the important elements in the film.

So, what's not good about the story?
 
What terrifies me is if Superman is too dark now, what does that mean for what Snyder is going to do for his resurrection?

I don't believe Supes will be "dark" now. Im wondering now if Supes will come back for JL 1 or if they will let him stay "dead" till JL 2?
 
I like that no one in this film comes out unscathed, they all are changed after the events of this movie. I know a lot of people say snyder can't tell a story, but that couldn't be any further from the truth. He just likes multiple threads of plots that ultimately are meant for people who like dissecting a movie when they own it on DVD. BVS is a film that will lend itself well to that.
 
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So, what's not good about the story?

Excellent question no ones counteracted my TDK comparison yet.

To everyone saying I'm wrong well you think I'm wrong fine but at least prove it if you can't counter my comparison then your argument is pretty hollow, prove my statement wrong with facts or stop saying it was objectively wrong, prove my comparison wrong or no offense prove yourself a hypocrite.
 
And superman did nothing dark in this movie besides almost murdering lex. He pretty much was trying to do the right thing this whole movie as the world kept trying to put him in this darker mindset to the point where he says "nothing in this world stays good forever" and it was heartbreaking to see, but the guy always made the right choice in the end, even saving lex's life! Justice league will definitely bring on a much more lighter superman and give him his time to shine.
 
So, what's not good about the story?

It's not the story that's bad, it's the way its told. Possibly in the hands of a gifted storyteller, BvS could be amazing.

Put it this way, it's like when my parents would read me a bedtime story. My dad did all the cool voices, knew how to drag me into the story and keep me captivated, wanting more. My mom just read the book. That's the problem. Snyder is just reading the book.

Another director could know how to deliver....hit those story beats perfectly, know what to emphasize, when to make you laugh, when to make you think. Like a comedian who has perfect timing on delivering that punchline. Snyder doesn't have that. He doesn't deliver the punchline, he's just reading the book....yes with some creative, amazing visuals, but what it amounts to is a story that drags and feels longer than its running time.
 
And superman did nothing dark in this movie besides almost murdering lex. He pretty much was trying to do the right thing this whole movie as the world kept trying to put him in this darker mindset to the point where he says "nothing in this world stays good forever" and it was heartbreaking to see, but the guy always made the right choice in the end, even saving lex's life! Justice league will definitely bring on a much more lighter superman and give him his time to shine.
It's a start for the Man of Tomorrow.
 
It's not the story that's bad, it's the way its told. Possibly in the hands of a gifted storyteller, BvS could be amazing.

Put it this way, it's like when my parents would read me a bedtime story. My dad did all the cool voices, knew how to drag me into the story and keep me captivated, wanting more. My mom just read the book. That's the problem. Snyder is just reading the book.

Another director could know how to deliver....hit those story beats perfectly, know what to emphasize, when to make you laugh, when to make you think. Like a comedian who has perfect timing on delivering that punchline. Snyder doesn't have that. He doesn't deliver the punchline, he's just reading the book....yes with some creative, amazing visuals, but what it amounts to is a story that drags and feels longer than its running time.
You can tell when watching interviews with Snyder talking about the extended cut that he isn't the biggest fan of the theatrical cut. So hopefully it works a lot better in the ext cut
 
And superman did nothing dark in this movie besides almost murdering lex. He pretty much was trying to do the right thing this whole movie as the world kept trying to put him in this darker mindset to the point where he says "nothing in this world stays good forever" and it was heartbreaking to see, but the guy always made the right choice in the end, even saving lex's life! Justice league will definitely bring on a much more lighter superman and give him his time to shine.

He actually even saves Lex from Doomsday.
ETA You already said that and I missed it.
 
100%

And it's not even that he failed to see the manipulation in Luthor (well fully anyway), it's that he was single-minded in his mission...his "legacy" as he calls it. The terrorist attack in DC is literally what set him on the path to fully get rid of this "alien". The Martha moment is the moment that he realized that Superman was more than just an "other". There's a person there with a mother and a loved one and a family.

Make no mistake, Affleck's Batman is going to be WAY different in JL. More honorable than what we got here. Because make no mistake, Superman changed Batman at the end of this thing. It was great to see. This is why I can accept the brutality of this Batman. He had become a monster.

Agreed with Affleck's portrayal on Batman going forward. He delivered a great performance, and I have a feeling that Batman's character is where most of Terrio's work was done. Wouldn't be surprised if Affleck grabs Terrio to go along with him in the solo film. Still not thrilled about the "Martha Moment". I get why it happened, to humanize Superman in Batman's eyes, it just didn't belong. But as I said earlier, at least it was well acted and well written.
 
You can tell when watching interviews with Snyder talking about the extended cut that he isn't the biggest fan of the theatrical cut. So hopefully it works a lot better in the ext cut

Funny, I was just about to mention this....I always got the feeling from seeing interviews that Snyder wasn't necessarily happy with what they ended up with. I'm actually going to buy that cut because I am interested too in seeing what was cut out and how it might have improved the movie.
 
Funny, I was just about to mention this....I always got the feeling from seeing interviews that Snyder wasn't necessarily happy with what they ended up with. I'm actually going to buy that cut because I am interested too in seeing what was cut out and how it might have improved the movie.

Having said that. He should have realized that this movie was never going to get a theatrical release of over 2 and half hours. He should have taken that into consideration in pre production.
I know it's frowned upon for some but I can't wait to get the Ext Cut and try and edit a cohesive 2/ half hour movie.
 
Your ridiculously condescending manner isn't going to sway anyone to listen to what you're saying. :whatever:[/QUOT

I'm tired of people embracing trash, I shouldn't of had to explain that it's obvious if you can't understand that bit then there's a problem. Whenever I'm nice people seem to ignore me even if I present a logical argument. A movie doesn't have to slow down to let you process something you should be able to do that yourself, people did it just fine with TDK and no there isn't a difference as I will explain.

Did Dark Knight give us time to slow down and process the scene where joker tried to kill the mayor no we got a scene then we moved on to Batman interrogating Maroni, Rachel we get the letter than we move on to Jokers next scheme. The hospital one brief scene on to Jokers next scheme, no city wide reaction at all. Even the press conference just happens no public reaction no political reaction nothing just on to the next Joker scene. Maroni and Two Face scene happens not mentioned again. TDK first half is cluttered the Hong Kong bits aren't really necessary the Reese subplot furthers nothing the sonar subplot with Fox has two scenes.

In the first act we do jump from scene to scene also some character stuff are rushed, Bruce doesn't trust Dent then he just does after a speech even his prosecution would not be enough to win Batman's trust. We go from the fox intro to the diner scene with no lead in its then followed by the mob meeting joker with no connection. Another example that could be considered rushed the joker video no reaction no fear we just jump to the party from there the pacing is almost perfect, but the first act is a little cluttered and rushed. I also feel I should bring up this fact as well, Superman is overshadowed the movie didn't know what to do with him, which is crap, but didn't this exact thing happen to Batman in TDK?

All of this sounds exactly like BVS with one difference it seems like MOS dwells on these things longer the character stuff seems deeper more psychological. The film doesn't sound different than TDK.

My suggestion of "slowing down" has to do with Snyder's storytelling style, not the script. He doesn't seem capable of wielding this much material in a competent way. Nolan absolutely handles the amount of story he has in TDK to perfection. He understands pacing and how it affects the plot. So whereas two films can have precisely the same story elements, that has nothing to do with how those elements are delivered to the audience.

I used an analogy of my parents reading a bedtime story earlier. That's what we have here. Nolan is like my dad, he understands how to move through a story with finesse, make it fun and interesting, accentuating all the important elements, captivating the audience, bringing the story to life so to speak. Snyder is like my mom, he just reads, gets through the book and says good night. Maybe if he was reading less weighty material, he can deliver a better narrative.

Traversing through the storylines of 5 main characters (Supes, Lex, Bats, WW, and Lois) who all have contrasting stories, but similar motivations is hard, but in a film, you can't leave that sort of navigation to the script alone. That's why we have directors. You can't just "shoot what's on paper", sometimes you have to break away from the script and go in another direction for a particular scene. You might have to add a scene, take a scene out, rewrite a character or kill one off.

Sometimes, I get the feeling Snyder is only focused on taking whatever is on the page and putting it on screen, not worrying about if it works or not.
 
Any white hair?
 
Vision what did you think of the knightmare? Of the ending?
 
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