BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 4

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And who the hell calls their mom by their first name anyway

Only to have their girlfriend to flop in and say something Superman could have said 10 minutes ago.

Instead succumbing to the typical movie trope of "..you don't understand... let me tell you this thing... that I can't tell you right now, because I'm busy with this sentence *gets hit by trap*
 
The worst part of that mother scene is that we are spoon fed the opening credits scene again, during Bruce's confusion. It made a crap scene, crappier. It's Zack saying "Hey watch my cool opening again! Remember that! The only good part of the film! Isn't it so cool?! Look at those pearls on the gun!" That's all I could really think of.

This is a perfect example of a scene that's unnecessarily slowed down to let the audience process it. As Dr doomsday has noted, we shouldn't accept this trash. I'm not accepting it. It's trash.
Yeah that flashback in that moment was unnecessary, I remember thinking about it during the film too, if anything I think it just needed to be cut down. I remember thinking it felt too long, it's cliche for the most part but I'd be Ok with some quick flashes of that imagery of his parents during that moment. But why the hell were we watching the gun go off again, the boy screaming, etc? Why not show a quick flash of a happier time with them to humanize the Bat to bring him back down to Earth after seeing Supes has loved ones too?

On another note, Bruce has so many flashbacks, nightmares, revelations, and inter-dimensional messages in this film, I'm shocked he didn't check himself into a hospital to make sure all that head trauma he's dealt with over the years wasn't catching up to him.
 
Only to have their girlfriend to flop in and say something Superman could have said 10 minutes ago.

Instead succumbing to the typical movie trope of "..you don't understand... let me tell you this thing... that I can't tell you right now, because I'm busy with this sentence *gets hit by trap*

I guess Lois' super power is always being exactly where she's needed during an epic fight sequence nomatter how implausible. In Justice League she shows up on the moon to tell Darkseid to stop picking on her boyfriend
 
The worst part of that mother scene is that we are spoon fed the opening credits scene again, during Bruce's confusion. It made a crap scene, crappier. It's Zack saying "Hey watch my cool opening again! Remember that! The only good part of the film! Isn't it so cool?! Look at those pearls on the gun!" That's all I could really think of.

This is a perfect example of a scene that's unnecessarily slowed down to let the audience process it. As Dr doomsday has noted, we shouldn't accept this trash. I'm not accepting it. It's trash.

No it's not TFA now that's trash no character development, paper thin plot everything that could be good isn't even explores. A clearly rehashed plot. Now you see that's trash, Avengers is trash, you have all the characters together but it doesn't do anything with them all the interactions are generic, no one has any character arc at all, no story just an excuse to have everyone go oh my gosh Iron Man and Captain America are in the same scene, but it doesn't do anything with it. It's trash this isn't what you described is a flaw, but that's it, TDK has massive flaws as I already explained, which everyone naturally ignored, of course, probably couldn't counter what I said like always.
 
Don't judge this movie by the written descriptions. There's a saying in screenwriting that sometimes something that sounds awesome on the written page is not when acted out and something that sounds crappy on the written page is actually awesome when acted out. It's one of the reasons they do table reads and rehearsals.
See the film and then judge.
 
I think it is perfectly fine that some of us are complaining about certain parts of this movie. I had a good friend of mine this morning text me about the movie and I told him the truth and how I felt. I don't know if its because of the hype for this movie or if because I feel that I didn't really get to much more than what the last 2 trailers didn't show. I wanted this movie to be perfect in every way...but it just wasn't. I know that a perfect movie doesn't exist, but this is Batman, Superman, and the beginning of the Justice League....you HAVE to step your game up on the writing and editing and directing. This is not a bad movie at all...is it better than MOS? I dunno. I really love MOS. when I left the theatre, I was excited and couldn't wait to watch it again. I really think the PG-13 rating on this movie and the time is really what hurt this film. I will wait for the Blu Ray release when we get our extra 30 min of footage and our "R" rating.
Would have been nice to have Christopher Nolan get in on this to help with the writing and feels. I had many more feels in MOS than I did in this movie.
 
Don't judge this movie by the written descriptions. There's a saying in screenwriting that sometimes something that sounds awesome on the written page is not when acted out and something that sounds crappy on the written page is actually awesome when acted out. It's one of the reasons they do table reads and rehearsals.
See the film and then judge.

I don't work that way, if I like how something sounds I almost always like the result, also I am well aware every plot point in a movie won't be fleshed out people use the term wasted potential but anything could be wasted potential everytime your movie moves on to a next plot point you're wasting potential. If for the political arc I get the African rescue, the public reaction to it, the intro to Lex, scooty's intro, superman before the hearing, the hearing and it's after math, that's enough for me more than enough it's more of the world view of Superman then I ever got of Batman or any Superhero it's still underdeveloped but better than what anything else gave me.

The world building doesn't bother me either it didn't bother me in AOU, two scenes that might feel a little out of place is not a big deal especially if they're enjoyable scenes. It doesn't sound stuffed at all the superman and Batman plot are the focus the other stuff is too minor to consider an actual part of the plot.

I read plot summaries for TDKR the movie delivered, I know how each event will go down the only thing that could kill it is bad acting which I know is not a factor. Fast paced films that don't allow me to breath are my kind of films, it ensures I immerse myself to make certain I don't miss anything, and I've never needed more than one experience. I liked what I read liked how most of it went down I see no reason for that to change.
 
So does Batman actually kill people in this film? if yes, the who and why did he kill?
 
I just don't see what Snyder was thinking with Batman killing those guys with the batwing and stuff. He could have gotten a lot less **** if he didn't have that happen. I mean, how did he think we would react?
 
In regard to Batman's arc and the resolution of the fight:


When we meet this Bruce, he's a jaded and angry shell of his past self with a narrow-minded view of the world around him due to past experiences and, most recently, the Black Zero event in Metropolis for which he was helpless in saving his employees. He feels that his crusade hasn't made a difference and his view on Superman is seemingly a manifestation of that fact that he's essentially lost his faith in humanity, in many ways.

“20 years in Gotham… we’ve seen what promises are worth. How many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?”

This hopeless mindset has led him to become more callous, brutal, and even cruel in his methods. He's clearly not the same kind of man or hero that he once was. Alfred says something along the lines of "this is not how things always were" and, of course, says this:

"That's how it starts. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men... cruel."

While it may seem that he just has this quick change of heart about Superman, there is more to it than that and also a good reason for it. Batman experiences what's called a moment of clarity -- a sudden and deep acceptance of a truth that had been impossible for him to see up to that point.

When he hears the name "Martha" and learns it is the name of Superman's mother who is in danger, he not only suddenly recognizes the humanity within Superman, but also realizes that it was HE who had lost the humanity within him. He had become exactly the kind of monster he thought he was fighting against. He lost the fight with Superman before it even began, partially because the rage and emptiness inside him clouded his judgement to the point that he allowed himself to be so easily manipulated by Luthor -- something I'm guessing wouldn't have happened in the past -- and failed to recognized or believe in the potential for Superman to be inherently good.

This moment -- along with what comes after (fighting side by side with Superman and watching him essentially sacrifice himself) -- does not only change his opinion about Superman, but it seemingly restores his faith in humanity and gives him hope again, as evidenced by the "men are still good" conversation he has with Wonder Woman. Beyond that, this experience is what drives him to want to seek out the other metahumans to join him and Wonder Woman in protecting humanity -- rather than continuing on working alone in near isolation. Let's remember that after the various personal losses he had suffered over the years (including the death his partner Robin and most likely people close to him who turned bad or betrayed him), it's a huge reversal for him to able to trust in other people enough to want to work and fight side by side with them as Batman.

Lastly, in his final scene with Luthor in his cell, it's very telling that he chose NOT to brand Luthor's skin with his symbol (which was said the be a "death sentence" for criminals in prison). To me, this indicates that he's likely leaving behind the "executioner" aspect of his methods and likely going back to being the less brutal, more hopeful hero he once was.
 
I just don't see what Snyder was thinking with Batman killing those guys with the batwing and stuff. He could have gotten a lot less **** if he didn't have that happen. I mean, how did he think we would react?

It's a questionable decision, for sure. It ultimately didn't bother me nearly as much as I thought something like that would, but I think the branding and breaking bones would have been enough to sell the idea of Batman being more brutal than he ever had been in the past.
 
So does Batman actually kill people in this film? if yes, the who and why did he kill?


Yes. He kills "superman soldiers" in the nightmare sequence by shooting them and snapping someone's neck. He kills lex goons during the chase scene by blowing up their cars with the batmobile gun. He kills callan mulvey's character by shooting his flame thrower tank to save Martha. He kills more lex goons by blowing up their cars with the batwing.
 
I was merely mentioning that sometimes a plot point written in sentence form doesn't carry the emotional weight that a movie does.


This is why I hate that people read spoilers. Half the people here (if not more) have read the most basic, poorly written sentences that describe the events of the film...before actually seeing these events i the film itself. They've deprived themselves of finding out how these moments actually make them feel, in the way they are meant to be seen.
 
It's a questionable decision, for sure. It ultimately didn't bother me nearly as much as I thought something like that would, but I think the branding and breaking bones would have been enough to sell the idea of Batman being more brutal than he ever had been in the past.

They were using TDKR Batman as a template for this Batman. Batman broke bones in that book...even stabbed Joker in the eye with a batarang.
 
This is why I hate that people read spoilers. Half the people here (if not more) have read the most basic, poorly written sentences that describe the events of the film...before actually seeing these events i the film itself. They've deprived themselves of finding out how these moments actually make them feel, in the way they are meant to be seen.

That's why I'm telling people to go see the movie...we've seen this before when a plot point leaks out and the fans think it's stupid or silly only to see it and get the context and be ok or even love it.
 
Yes. He kills "superman soldiers" in the nightmare sequence by shooting them and snapping someone's neck. He kills lex goons during the chase scene by blowing up their cars with the batmobile gun. He kills callan mulvey's character by shooting his flame thrower tank to save Martha. He kills more lex goons by blowing up their cars with the batwing.

Wait, so how is joker still alive if this batman has zero problem blowing goons up?
 
In regard to Batman's arc and the resolution of the fight:


When we meet this Bruce, he's a jaded and angry shell of his past self with a narrow-minded view of the world around him due to past experiences and, most recently, the Black Zero event in Metropolis for which he was helpless in saving his employees. He feels that his crusade hasn't made a difference and his view on Superman is seemingly a manifestation of that fact that he's essentially lost his faith in humanity, in many ways.

“20 years in Gotham… we’ve seen what promises are worth. How many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?”

This hopeless mindset has led him to become more callous, brutal, and even cruel in his methods. He's clearly not the same kind of man or hero that he once was. Alfred says something along the lines of "this is not how things always were" and, of course, says this:

"That's how it starts. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men... cruel."

While it may seem that he just has this quick change of heart about Superman, there is more to it than that and also a good reason for it. Batman experiences what's called a moment of clarity -- a sudden and deep acceptance of a truth that had been impossible for him to see up to that point.

When he hears the name "Martha" and learns it is the name of Superman's mother who is in danger, he not only suddenly recognizes the humanity within Superman, but also realizes that it was HE who had lost the humanity within him. He had become exactly the kind of monster he thought he was fighting against. He lost the fight with Superman before it even began, partially because the rage and emptiness inside him clouded his judgement to the point that he allowed himself to be so easily manipulated by Luthor -- something I'm guessing wouldn't have happened in the past -- and failed to recognized or believe in the potential for Superman to be inherently good.

This moment -- along with what comes after (fighting side by side with Superman and watching him essentially sacrifice himself) -- does not only change his opinion about Superman, but it seemingly restores his faith in humanity and gives him hope again, as evidenced by the "men are still good" conversation he has with Wonder Woman. Beyond that, this experience is what drives him to want to seek out the other metahumans to join him and Wonder Woman in protecting humanity -- rather than continuing on working alone in near isolation. Let's remember that after the various personal losses he had suffered over the years (including the death his partner Robin and most likely people close to him who turned bad or betrayed him), it's a huge reversal for him to able to trust in other people enough to want to work and fight side by side with them as Batman.

Lastly, in his final scene with Luthor in his cell, it's very telling that he chose NOT to brand Luthor's skin with his symbol (which was said the be a "death sentence" for criminals in prison). To me, this indicates that he's likely leaving behind the "executioner" aspect of his methods and likely going back to being the less brutal, more hopeful hero he once was.
Very well said! I just think there is a way to have him be conflicted with this new found experience. He knows that he needs to kill this alien before more innocent people are killed, but he also realizes that Supes can feel and does care about the people and it takes hearing the name "Martha" to figure that out. I get it and I think it was a brilliant move but I just think it could have been executed a bit better to show Batman's confliction.
 
Wait, so how is joker still alive if this batman has zero problem blowing goons up?

We don't know what's going on with Joker. For all we know Batman could think he's dead.
 
in regard to batman's arc and the resolution of the fight:


When we meet this bruce, he's a jaded and angry shell of his past self with a narrow-minded view of the world around him due to past experiences and, most recently, the black zero event in metropolis for which he was helpless in saving his employees. He feels that his crusade hasn't made a difference and his view on superman is seemingly a manifestation of that fact that he's essentially lost his faith in humanity, in many ways.

“20 years in gotham… we’ve seen what promises are worth. How many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?”

this hopeless mindset has led him to become more callous, brutal, and even cruel in his methods. He's clearly not the same kind of man or hero that he once was. Alfred says something along the lines of "this is not how things always were" and, of course, says this:

"that's how it starts. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men... Cruel."

while it may seem that he just has this quick change of heart about superman, there is more to it than that and also a good reason for it. Batman experiences what's called a moment of clarity -- a sudden and deep acceptance of a truth that had been impossible for him to see up to that point.

When he hears the name "martha" and learns it is the name of superman's mother who is in danger, he not only suddenly recognizes the humanity within superman, but also realizes that it was he who had lost the humanity within him. He had become exactly the kind of monster he thought he was fighting against. He lost the fight with superman before it even began, partially because the rage and emptiness inside him clouded his judgement to the point that he allowed himself to be so easily manipulated by luthor -- something i'm guessing wouldn't have happened in the past -- and failed to recognized or believe in the potential for superman to be inherently good.

This moment -- along with what comes after (fighting side by side with superman and watching him essentially sacrifice himself) -- does not only change his opinion about superman, but it seemingly restores his faith in humanity and gives him hope again, as evidenced by the "men are still good" conversation he has with wonder woman. Beyond that, this experience is what drives him to want to seek out the other metahumans to join him and wonder woman in protecting humanity -- rather than continuing on working alone in near isolation. Let's remember that after the various personal losses he had suffered over the years (including the death his partner robin and most likely people close to him who turned bad or betrayed him), it's a huge reversal for him to able to trust in other people enough to want to work and fight side by side with them as batman.

Lastly, in his final scene with luthor in his cell, it's very telling that he chose not to brand luthor's skin with his symbol (which was said the be a "death sentence" for criminals in prison). To me, this indicates that he's likely leaving behind the "executioner" aspect of his methods and likely going back to being the less brutal, more hopeful hero he once was.

100%

And it's not even that he failed to see the manipulation in Luthor (well fully anyway), it's that he was single-minded in his mission...his "legacy" as he calls it. The terrorist attack in DC is literally what set him on the path to fully get rid of this "alien". The Martha moment is the moment that he realized that Superman was more than just an "other". There's a person there with a mother and a loved one and a family.

Make no mistake, Affleck's Batman is going to be WAY different in JL. More honorable than what we got here. Because make no mistake, Superman changed Batman at the end of this thing. It was great to see. This is why I can accept the brutality of this Batman. He had become a monster.
 
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That's why I'm telling people to go see the movie...we've seen this before when a plot point leaks out and the fans think it's stupid or silly only to see it and get the context and be ok or even love it.

Oh I have every intention to, but I'm also seeing it with someone else and I would like to know if there's anything that will bother them so I can be prepared if the endless complaining from him comes, despite knowing the story I really wish I had known Banes end would've allowed me to prepare in advance.
 
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