Gotham The Wayne's murder: intentional or happenstance?

[godisawesome]

Burton had Napier get a sadistic kick out of shooting some folks and taunting a kid.

Nolan had an understandable escalation of an unstable situation to unintentional murder with Joe Chill.

Johns and others have suggested that the murder was planned and executed by some criminal or corrupt element of the city.

So how do you hope Gotham handles the circumstances on Crime Alley?

I've always preferred Chill/Nameless Thug's crime to be a botched robbery with no external connections. It enhances the random nature of the crime and makes it easier to sympathize with Bruce.

However, the pics displaying the murder from the show seem to have the killer quietly walking away after a quick, hitman-like shooting of both parents, implying directed violence. Some have mentioned the idea that Carmine Falcone calling for the hit would make dramatic sense and have an ironic twist thanks to Thomas Wayne having saved Falcone's life in the past.

So what do you think?

 

[The Question]

If it's a hit by the Faclones or some corrupt politician, I think it ****s up Bruce's motivations. If it's just a matter of a botched robbery and bad luck, then what you have is a kid who lived a life of wealth comfort and privilege who had always been told that he had nothing to be afraid of coming face to face with the horror, violence, and despair that people face every day that he had always been sheltered from, which eventually leads to him deciding to do something about it. It's kind of like the story of Sidhartha Buddha, but with less spiritual enlightenment and more punching. If it's a hit, then it becomes more about straight up revenge. I think the former is a lot more meaningful and interesting and presents the character in a much more positive light than the latter.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I prefer the latter. I've not yet read Batman Ultimate Evil, but I actually liked that the Waynes were murdered because of Martha's stance against crime (that case it was against children).

I think it would deepen the show and characters if Thomas Wayne ironically saved a crime lord's life, who then turns around and gets murdered because of his wife's caring nature against the criminal element destroying innocent lives.

I think it'd add more substance to the Wayne's which would explain why Bruce is the way he is - because of his parents caring love and not because of their deaths.

It could inspire him to seek revenge, but he discovers that's no good when he comes close to gaining it. His journey and mission shouldn't be about that against whoever was responsible for their murder.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I like the idea of it being happenstance. im not big on the lew moxon storyline

 

[The Question]

I prefer the latter. I've not yet read Batman Ultimate Evil, but I actually liked that the Waynes were murdered because of Martha's stance against crime (that case it was against children).

I think it would deepen the show and characters if Thomas Wayne ironically saved a crime lord's life, who then turns around and gets murdered because of his wife's caring nature against the criminal element destroying innocent lives.

I think it'd add more substance to the Wayne's which would explain why Bruce is the way he is - because of his parents caring love and not because of their deaths.

It could inspire him to seek revenge, but he discovers that's no good when he comes close to gaining it. His journey and mission shouldn't be about that against whoever was responsible for their murder.

Personally, while it does add more substance to the Waynes, I think it takes some substance away from Batman's motivations.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I get what you mean.

The random occurrence of crime is an everyday thing.
It can happen to just about anybody. Even the Waynes with all their money, power and security.
That shocks young Bruce to his very core.

Chill is meant to be the face of that random person that can shatter your life. I always thought it best we never discover his feelings or motives as to why he killed the Waynes. Was it by accident or just out of malice. Did he feel guilt or enjoyment?

And that's questions I feel Bruce should never get the answers to and he questions it everyday in his solitary moments. It adds to the cruelty crime brings with it.

If it was a hit and was intentional, it does take away the most common thing in crime that Bruce can relate to with others - the cruel randomness.

But in this case, like in Batman Ultimate Evil, Bruce only discovered his parents were murdered after he thought Chill was just a random mugger for a long time.
It lead to him discovering a greater level of crime that he'd never have forseen if it weren't for the assassination of his parents.
That would be interesting to see the show tackle.
Showing how the family made themselves the ultimate enemy of evil. It not only adds more substance to all the Waynes, but adds greater heroism to them.
It's more personal things to the characterization of Bruce and Batman.
That through the noble acts of his family, they all became magnets to crime. It's like a curse to him. Something he's determined to fight til he dies.

If anything, if done just right, it'll add more to Bruce than taking away from him.

 

[BestGirl]

I prefer the latter. I've not yet read Batman Ultimate Evil, but I actually liked that the Waynes were murdered because of Martha's stance against crime (that case it was against children).

I think it would deepen the show and characters if Thomas Wayne ironically saved a crime lord's life, who then turns around and gets murdered because of his wife's caring nature against the criminal element destroying innocent lives.

I think it'd add more substance to the Wayne's which would explain why Bruce is the way he is - because of his parents caring love and not because of their deaths.

It could inspire him to seek revenge, but he discovers that's no good when he comes close to gaining it. His journey and mission shouldn't be about that against whoever was responsible for their murder.

I don't see the Waynes being crusaders against crime and their random murders as being mutually exclusive. That they are philanthropists and activists and are nevertheless killed by the same kind of person they are trying to help is so tragic. That wouldn't prevent Thomas from saving Falcone's life or anything like that. It would just mean that karma doesn't automatically work out in a person's favor.

 

[gugumugats]

I prefer the latter. I've not yet read Batman Ultimate Evil, but I actually liked that the Waynes were murdered because of Martha's stance against crime (that case it was against children).

I think it would deepen the show and characters if Thomas Wayne ironically saved a crime lord's life, who then turns around and gets murdered because of his wife's caring nature against the criminal element destroying innocent lives.

I think it'd add more substance to the Wayne's which would explain why Bruce is the way he is - because of his parents caring love and not because of their deaths.

It could inspire him to seek revenge, but he discovers that's no good when he comes close to gaining it. His journey and mission shouldn't be about that against whoever was responsible for their murder.

Brave argument to make.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I don't see the Waynes being crusaders against crime and their random murders as being mutually exclusive. That they are philanthropists and activists and are nevertheless killed by the same kind of person they are trying to help is so tragic. That wouldn't prevent Thomas from saving Falcone's life or anything like that. It would just mean that karma doesn't automatically work out in a person's favor.

Very true. That would be a case too.

But it would be interesting to see them murdered deliberately because of a massive evil that they were trying to stop.
I loved that concept in Ultimate Evil.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Brave argument to make.

Probably futile

 

[Loki882]

I MUCH prefer the versions where the murders were a simple mugging gone bad. The idea that the Wayne's, two of the richest and most influential people in Gotham if not the world, could be gunned down by some petty thug/bum randomly works much better to establish why Batman is necessary, imo. It help's show just how corrupt, crime-ridden, and rotten Gotham has become and why someone like Batman is necessary. It being some kind of orchestrated hit takes away from that, again in my opinion. Also, it being random makes it even more tragic because it was simply a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It could have happened to ANYBODY, which makes it even worse. They can still be philanthropists/humanitarians. As Ra's put it in Batman Begins "gunned down by one of the very people that they were trying to help." Now THAT'S tragic.

 

[The Question]

And it makes the narrative much more selfless and universal. If it's a random chance encounter with a desperate but not truly evil individual, then it's Bruce Wayne both being traumatized and learning what the world is actually like. There, Batman is a response to the pain of the world. If it's part of some conspiracy, then even if Batman only finds that out later in life, the narrative becomes all about him and his revenge. He stops being a hero of the people and starts being a guy out for blood.

 

[Rodrigo90]

They're bound to say it was a hit to deepen the plot of the show.

If it's a random death and Chill dies, then that plot thread dies.

And I don't mind it, as long as there's a good reason why it's an assassination. If the Waynes die because they were combating a great evil, then that falls onto Bruce.
But people think once that's wrapped then their deaths have been avenged and Bruce can live in peace after gaining some closure.
But that's not true.

The Wayne's were still a victim of a crime, whether organized or not.
Bruce is still an orphan of a crime.

Just because the Waynes get assassinated doesn't take away anything. It only takes the RANDOMNESS of their deaths away. It is admittedly the most common aspect of crime. But to say Bruce will be less of something because of it isn't correct.

Crime is crime. It can be premeditated or it can be completely random and senseless.

The fact that the murder would be premeditated and the motive is no longer for money, doesn't bother me at all.

It's a neat change and I'm open to it.

 

[Rodrigo90]

And it makes the narrative much more selfless and universal. If it's a random chance encounter with a desperate but not truly evil individual, then it's Bruce Wayne both being traumatized and learning what the world is actually like. There, Batman is a response to the pain of the world. If it's part of some conspiracy, then even if Batman only finds that out later in life, the narrative becomes all about him and his revenge. He stops being a hero of the people and starts being a guy out for blood.

That's only one way to look at it.
Doesn't happen in Ultimate Evil.

 

[Charlatan]

Intentional.
I think tptb have already said as much in a press release. they said Gordon and Bullock take the case and it appears to be an easy one but after peeling the onion they discover more layers to it. I'm guessing it's going to be an ongoing thing throughout the series.

 

[Loki882]

I'm pretty sure that it will some kind of conspiracy to. I just personally don't want that. It being a random crime by a desperate individual who isn't evil completely evil just works much better imo.

 

[gugumugats]

With an intentional murder, I think Batman's motivations could still hold if Gordon/Bullock decide to cover up the grand conspiracy and make it seem more like a random murder.

The guilt of doing this could also drive Gordon to somehow feel like he has an obligation to Bruce.

However, I had also thought that Gordon and Bullock were forced by higher-ups to pin the crime on somebody else and kill the patsy. This is what drives Gordon to start re-thinking about his idealisation of Gotham.

 

[godisawesome]

The set pic of Penguin shows him reading a paper that says "Hero cops kill Wayne Killer," so at least the first episode will offer a scenario for what the murder was about. However, it seems more thematically ironic if the suspect killed was either framed by a conspiracy or had the crime pinned on him to give the GCPD a "win."

They could get a lot of mileage out of Gordon, Bullock, and Bruce all knowing that the case was closed so the city could move on. It would give Bruce a reason to train himself in investigative skills and go on a hunt like in The Court Of Owls, a possible wild goose chase that nonetheless shows just how brutally changed his world is. And it would give Gordon a reason to stay in contact with Bruce: he knows that the kid got screwed by his superiors, and that Bruce is the only witness left.

And imagine how they could manipulate the series' myth arc around it. We could see Bruce go through an obsession with revenge, realize how messed up it is, and then find out that Chill was just a desperate man in dire straits. Because that's another reason I don't like about the conspiracy. If the murder was committed by someone who had no intention of doing so when he set out that night, it encourages Bruce to sympathize with criminals and the downtrodden enough to deny his baser impulses. The League of Shadows argument kind of falls apart if Bruce understands that he can change the criminals nested of just fighting them.

 

[The Guard]

There's some poetic and thematic beauty to the random act of violence thing, but there's a lot more story potential to the hit, and this being the way young Bruce and Gordon start to unravel the web of corruption in Gotham; which I'd bet will be a huge focus in this show. While I think they will definitely try to create confusion over whether it was a hit or a random act, the second angle makes sense thematically, given the nature of the show itself.

We may never know the truth (that would be my preference), but the investigation and ongoing mystery will open up connections The Waynes had to various factions of the city.

As far as character impact, I don't really think making the Wayne murder a hit would actually affect Bruce/Batman's selfishness/selflessness that much. Bruce and Batman's selfishness is more related to his own personal reaction to what happened to him, not the thematic relevance of the origins of what happened to him.

I can see a sort of "If this can happen to me, it can happen to anyone" angle being explored, but that's really going to be there regardless.

I think there's some hairsplitting going on about the random, everyday nature of the incident. The origins of it don't really matter as much compared to the impact it has on the character and in shaping him.

I don't even think having it be a hit would change the "random" aspect of it that much, because the psychological impact the murder has on Bruce will already be happening by the time he finds out it was a hit, should that be the way they go. It will still be "random" and sudden and shocking, in terms of his life's trajectory.

And if it's portrayed that he seeks to prevent others from encountering the pain he experienced (whether from random or organized crime) as a child, that's well in keeping with how Batman has classically been portrayed. And there are also interpretations of the character where revenge is very much a part of his decision to become Batman.

Basically, it can be both. And I hope they explore both aspects on the show.

 

[craigaat]

Hopefully it's just a random, senseless killing. I want the murderer to remain anonymous too, but I like the idea of Batman not knowing who killed his family. That way he'll never be satisfied, no matter how many criminals he stops.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I always found it kind of odd that the Wayne's decided to take a leisurely stroll down a dark alley in a crime infested city with their young son in tow to begin with, but hey; whatever.

 

[Rodrigo90]

There's some poetic and thematic beauty to the random act of violence thing, but there's a lot more story potential to the hit, and this being the way young Bruce and Gordon start to unravel the web of corruption in Gotham; which I'd bet will be a huge focus in this show. While I think they will definitely try to create confusion over whether it was a hit or a random act, the second angle makes sense thematically, given the nature of the show itself.

We may never know the truth (that would be my preference), but the investigation and ongoing mystery will open up connections The Waynes had to various factions of the city.

As far as character impact, I don't really think making the Wayne murder a hit would actually affect Bruce/Batman's selfishness/selflessness that much. Bruce and Batman's selfishness is more related to his own personal reaction to what happened to him, not the thematic relevance of the origins of what happened to him.

I can see a sort of "If this can happen to me, it can happen to anyone" angle being explored, but that's really going to be there regardless.

I think there's some hairsplitting going on about the random, everyday nature of the incident. The origins of it don't really matter as much compared to the impact it has on the character and in shaping him.

I don't even think having it be a hit would change the "random" aspect of it that much, because the psychological impact the murder has on Bruce will already be happening by the time he finds out it was a hit, should that be the way they go. It will still be "random" and sudden and shocking, in terms of his life's trajectory.

And if it's portrayed that he seeks to prevent others from encountering the pain he experienced (whether from random or organized crime) as a child, that's well in keeping with how Batman has classically been portrayed. And there are also interpretations of the character where revenge is very much a part of his decision to become Batman.

Basically, it can be both. And I hope they explore both aspects on the show.

 

[declan]

There's some poetic and thematic beauty to the random act of violence thing, but there's a lot more story potential to the hit, and this being the way young Bruce and Gordon start to unravel the web of corruption in Gotham; which I'd bet will be a huge focus in this show. While I think they will definitely try to create confusion over whether it was a hit or a random act, the second angle makes sense thematically, given the nature of the show itself.

We may never know the truth (that would be my preference), but the investigation and ongoing mystery will open up connections The Waynes had to various factions of the city.

As far as character impact, I don't really think making the Wayne murder a hit would actually affect Bruce/Batman's selfishness/selflessness that much. Bruce and Batman's selfishness is more related to his own personal reaction to what happened to him, not the thematic relevance of the origins of what happened to him.

I can see a sort of "If this can happen to me, it can happen to anyone" angle being explored, but that's really going to be there regardless.

I think there's some hairsplitting going on about the random, everyday nature of the incident. The origins of it don't really matter as much compared to the impact it has on the character and in shaping him.

I don't even think having it be a hit would change the "random" aspect of it that much, because the psychological impact the murder has on Bruce will already be happening by the time he finds out it was a hit, should that be the way they go. It will still be "random" and sudden and shocking, in terms of his life's trajectory.

And if it's portrayed that he seeks to prevent others from encountering the pain he experienced (whether from random or organized crime) as a child, that's well in keeping with how Batman has classically been portrayed. And there are also interpretations of the character where revenge is very much a part of his decision to become Batman.

Basically, it can be both. And I hope they explore both aspects on the show.

I agree with all this, but the one thing that bugs me is I can't think of one billionaire who's ever been randomly murdered. It just doesn't seem to happen...

 

[gdw]

I think you can have it both ways. It could very well have been an intentional murder, but that doesn't mean Bruce has to know that, nor that it has to be known by anyone publicly.

Perhaps the connections/intentions of the murder aren't exposed till years latter, well after Bruce has begun his journey/devoted himself tot he mission.

 

[The Question]

I think you can have it both ways. It could very well have been an intentional murder, but that doesn't mean Bruce has to know that, nor that it has to be known by anyone publicly.

Perhaps the connections/intentions of the murder aren't exposed till years latter, well after Bruce has begun his journey/devoted himself tot he mission.

For me, that's not having it both ways. It's not just about what Batman perceives to be the truth, it's about what the narrative is about and focuses on. If Batman finds out later on in his career that it's a part of some kind of conspiracy, then the narrative becomes about Batman getting revenge on the people responsible. In the context of the story, the crime becomes a personal attack against the Wayne family, instead of being a universal horror that they simply become prey to. It doesn't change his character motivations up until that point, but it shifts the focus of the narrative away from what I think are much more meaningful and interesting ideas.

Things introduced later in a story do re-contextualize everything that came before, and for me, it isn't just a matter of how Batman feels, it's what the story is about. A conspiracy to kill the Waynes makes for a much bigger story about much less valuable ideas. A random act of violence perpetuated by someone who wasn't truly malicious, only desperate and reckless, makes the story of Thomas and Martha Wayne's deaths much smaller, but about much bigger ideas that lead to a much more meaningful story.