Theology discussion

[Cyrusbales]

Well, I'm not religious at all, but whenever I talk to anyone who is about their religion and why they believe it, they get very defensive and think I'm being mean. I would just like to have a genuine discussion with religious people to find our why they believe etc? And how they find it rational to do so etc. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, I'm just interested(having studied philosophy and all!). So if anyone wants to contribute/discuss, please go ahead. thanks.

 

[E. Bison]

Fine...go ahead and ask....

DEATH TO ISRAEL!!

 

[Cyrusbales]

Well I can't understand how people believe in a God. The general theological arguments, ontological, causation and cosmological all seem rather weak. There's more evidence for the absense of god rather than his existence?

And the bible seems very contradictory, Man made in gods image, yet god is above and beyond perception? This seems to go against itself
(Thanks by the way)

 

[Bill]

Or you might ask why an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present, perfect being needs something as demeaning as worship.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Also, does the idea of being morale to avoid an eternity of torture not seem odd? Surely morality(which doesn't exist objectively-according to ayer and stevenson) should be about being 'good' for the sake of it, not to save one from torture?

 

[Mee]

Also, does the idea of being morale to avoid an eternity of torture not seem odd? Surely morality(which doesn't exist objectively-according to ayer and stevenson) should be about being 'good' for the sake of it, not to save one from torture?

Well Hell was originally made for Satan and the other fallen angels, not for people.

 

[E. Bison]

Alright! Alright! One at a time. Now with why people want to believe in God? Well many reasons: Some want to believe so they can use God to control other people by influencing them, manipulating them and getting something out of them like say.....MONEY?

Others believe because they want answers for world conditions and why they are the way they are. Why do bad people prosper and good people suffer? Why is their suffering and evil? What happens after we die? Is this all there is?

Some want to believe because they hope their deity will bring them justice and vengeance for whatever wrong some person put on the believer.

Some want to believe because they are suffering so much and they want hope. Mankind cannot give people who are in such downward spirals of misery any hope. So many turn to God to find a way out and in hope that someday they will get something better.

 

[E. Bison]

Actually, if you study Astrophysics, chemistry, the human anatomy(especially the brain), and Abiogenesis you will see that there is evidence of intelligent design but telling scientifically WHICH God or being created them is not possible.

 

[Cyrusbales]

OK, i get why people would want to believe, it's more the HOW that confuses me. I can't understand how people can believe something that seems so unbelieveable and has no proof. It just seems odd to me?
(I really appretiate this)

 

[Mee]

OK, i get why people would want to believe, it's more the HOW that confuses me. I can't understand how people can believe something that seems so unbelieveable and has no proof. It just seems odd to me?
(I really appretiate this)

There's proof that Jesus was real, though people say he was just a prophet.

And if you believe, the Bible is proof.

Where's proof of evolution? Where's the "missing link"? Disscussions like this can go on forever and never get anywhere.

 

[E. Bison]

Or you might ask why an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present, perfect being needs something as demeaning as worship.

May I ask you what you think worship means?

 

[Cyrusbales]

Jesus may be have been real, but it doesn't mean he was son of god, people think elvis was a god. Evolution does have evidence, but god's existence is not so concrete...

 

[Mee]

Jesus may be have been real, but it doesn't mean he was son of god, people think elvis was a god. Evolution does have evidence, but god's existence is not so concrete...

Yeah that's what I'm saying. We have proof Jesus was real, "well he was just a prophet, evidence for evolution is much more concrete." How so?

 

[E. Bison]

OK, i get why people would want to believe, it's more the HOW that confuses me. I can't understand how people can believe something that seems so unbelieveable and has no proof. It just seems odd to me?
(I really appretiate this)

Well the most simplest way on HOW a person believes about God is by studying his creations. Again if you study Astrophysics, Astronomy, Nature, the Human Anatomy, and Abiogenesis(the study of how life began) you will see that their is much evidence of an intelligent designer. Studying nature and space is the most simplest way to KNOW their is a God. Ironically, many critics and scientist claimed that with the more advanced technology got and the more scientific knowledge there was it would destroy all belief in God. Instead what happened was that more and MORE complexity was found in research and it was proven that things were to complex to have happened by chance.

Their are many things that are invisible that we don't question of being there. Like with wind we can feel it but cannot sense it any other way. Gravity for one is NOT detectable in any way yet we believe in it because we see it at work. The same is with God because although we cannot sense him in any physical way we do see proof of his existence in his creations. Science has only helped in making this more known.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. We have proof Jesus was real, "well he was just a prophet, evidence for evolution is much more concrete." How so?

why not? The criterion for knowledge is true justified belief. The justification is weak at best gor God. And linguistically, god is unverifiable and therefore is a tautology, like a unicorn.

 

[Mee]

why not? The criterion for knowledge is true justified belief. The justification is weak at best gor God. And linguistically, god is unverifiable and therefore is a tautology, like a unicorn.

It's more likely that life sprouted from goo? (or whatever)

How is "The Big Bang" anymore believable than Creation?

 

[Cyrusbales]

It's more likely that life sprouted from goo? (or whatever)

How is "The Big Bang" anymore believable than Creation?

red shift, it's evidence for the big bang, no-one is able to question or refute it, with any valuable point anyway. Science has great scruitiny over every little finding, religion does not, So science is more likely to be accurate just because of it's rigourous verification. Not to mention the actual findings and evidence

 

[E. Bison]

Jesus may be have been real, but it doesn't mean he was son of god, people think elvis was a god. Evolution does have evidence, but god's existence is not so concrete...

Actually, evolution is just a theory. It's taught in schools like it is fact, but its still just a theory because there exist no hard evidence for it. No animals have been seen to gradually evolve. No fossil record of gradual change. Mutations have been proven to be harmful and accidental. No proof of where they came from. According to fossil records insects and fish just "appeared out of nowhere".

Again study the things I have shown you above. They are so complex and organized that it could not have been done by accident.

Elvis didn't perform any miracles but Jesus did. Elvis is dead but Jesus came back to life. Elvis didn't have a family tree that was expecting Elvis to exist and be who he was. Jesus did.

 

[Mee]

Actually, evolution is just a theory. It's taught in schools like it is fact, but its still just a theory because there exist no hard evidence for it. No animals have been seen to gradually evolve. No fossil record of gradual change. Mutations have been proven to be harmful and accidental. No proof of where they came from. According to fossil records insects and fish just "appeared out of nowhere".

Again study the things I have shown you above. They are so complex and organized that it could not have been done by accident.

Elvis didn't perform any miracles but Jesus did. Elvis is dead but Jesus came back to life. Elvis didn't have a family tree that was expecting Elvis to exist and be who he was. Jesus did.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Actually, evolution is just a theory. It's taught in schools like it is fact, but its still just a theory because there exist no hard evidence for it. No animals have been seen to gradually evolve. No fossil record of gradual change. Mutations have been proven to be harmful and accidental. No proof of where they came from. According to fossil records insects and fish just "appeared out of nowhere".

Again study the things I have shown you above. They are so complex and organized that it could not have been done by accident.

Elvis didn't perform any miracles but Jesus did. Elvis is dead but Jesus came back to life. Elvis didn't have a family tree that was expecting Elvis to exist and be who he was. Jesus did.

No offence, but where is the evidence of jesus' resserection? And There is evidence of revolution, human bonestructure has altered slighlty in the western world over the past 100 years, making our thumbs more oposable.(only slightly though).

To say that it's too perfect it can't be an acident, seems to neglect the imprefections of life. And the sheer number of planets, only earth supporting life within our knowledge, not perfect, the law of averages.

All knowledge is theory, the most accurate and irrefutable theory is knowledge(see stevenson and Ayer). I don't understand the whole family tree thing, any clarification on that?

Thanks

 

[Mee]

No offence, but where is the evidence of jesus' resserection? And There is evidence of revolution, human bonestructure has altered slighlty in the western world over the past 100 years, making our thumbs more oposable.(only slightly though).

To say that it's too perfect it can't be an acident, seems to neglect the imprefections of life. And the sheer number of planets, only earth supporting life within our knowledge, not perfect, the law of averages.

All knowledge is theory, the most accurate and irrefutable theory is knowledge(see stevenson and Ayer). I don't understand the whole family tree thing, any clarification on that?

Thanks

There is Jesus' tomb, but of course aside from The Bible no proof He was in it. That's where faith comes in, alot like evolution. Evolution is a theory that some people believe to be fact. Religion is the same way, you could call it a "theory", that some people believe to be fact.

 

[Cyrusbales]

There is Jesus' tomb, but of course aside from The Bible no proof He was in it. That's where faith comes in, alot like evolution. Evolution is a theory that some people believe to be fact. Religion is the same way, you could call it a "theory", that some people believe to be fact.

Evidence wise, it's the bible(written long after events, by questionable sources) versus, billions of creatures and tests etc.

 

[Mee]

Evidence wise, it's the bible(written long after events, by questionable sources) versus, billions of creatures and tests etc.

Alot of dead things that scientists claim we evolved from with no missing links to back it up. Not very concrete evidence.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Alot of dead things that scientists claim we evolved from with no missing links to back it up. Not very concrete evidence.

So your saying that a mysterious being that cannot be percieved, yet we are in his image, and has no possible form of verification is more believable than a theory that clearly has evidence of animals and progression, via bone structure, DNA, cranial development etc? I personally can't see it

 

[Cyrusbales]

Well the most simplest way on HOW a person believes about God is by studying his creations. Again if you study Astrophysics, Astronomy, Nature, the Human Anatomy, and Abiogenesis(the study of how life began) you will see that their is much evidence of an intelligent designer. Studying nature and space is the most simplest way to KNOW their is a God. Ironically, many critics and scientist claimed that with the more advanced technology got and the more scientific knowledge there was it would destroy all belief in God. Instead what happened was that more and MORE complexity was found in research and it was proven that things were to complex to have happened by chance.

Their are many things that are invisible that we don't question of being there. Like with wind we can feel it but cannot sense it any other way. Gravity for one is NOT detectable in any way yet we believe in it because we see it at work. The same is with God because although we cannot sense him in any physical way we do see proof of his existence in his creations. Science has only helped in making this more known.

Gravity can be seen via effects, unlike GOD, whose effects cannot be seen. Gravity is a name for what we can see happening, GOD is the name for nothing, it directly refers to nothing verifiable, so it becomes tautological and tells us nothing about reality.