Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 22

[Mjölnir]

As far as Malekith, he didn't strike me a pure evil but more a being with a singular purpose (albeit warped). In his mind, undoing the creation of this universe was perfectly justified because he was restoring things to the way they should be. His hatred of Asgard and the line of Bor was palpable by his destruction of Odin's throne. I of course would've loved to have seen more of his story flushed out but I got the gist of what he was about in the few scenes we saw. I wouldn't say he was one dimensional. We just didn't get to know enough about him. The dialogue between him and Algrim hinted that there was more to this than we really know.

I will admit I'm puzzled that Thor got such a short run time. The exclusion of deleted scenes from the Blu-Ray that Taylor has mentioned in interviews makes me suspicious of the Marvel/Disney brass. Are they afraid we will all be wondering why in the world they weren't in the movie? Or are they trying to milk us so we double dip on a Phase 2 set down the road?

We also are led to understand that his drive and hatred doesn't necessarily define him by the parallel they draw with Odin. Odin is driven to the same mindset out of grief and anger and that's the same feelings that Malekith is driven by.

I still wish that we could at least have gotten to see the scene where he talks about his family with Algrim. I think that would have been a great piece of that particular puzzle. Especially since Eccleston seems to be so fond of that scene.

 

[Vartha]

We also are led to understand that his drive and hatred doesn't necessarily define him by the parallel they draw with Odin. Odin is driven to the same mindset out of grief and anger and that's the same feelings that Malekith is driven by.

I still wish that we could at least have gotten to see the scene where he talks about his family with Algrim. I think that would have been a great piece of that particular puzzle. Especially since Eccleston seems to be so fond of that scene.

Yeah I wanted to see that too.
Only a few flashed scenes where you can see why Mal went off the deep end would have helped

 

[Silvermoon]

um Not sure really lol the whole thing is 5 and half minutes BUT Fiege and crew are talking about Loki, and Tom being able to bring him to life

I just found the feature on daily motion sus) *sigh* it's the truncated version (not to mention them talking over it too). Still don't understand why Marvel didn't officially release his full 4+ minute speech - it doesn't have quite the same effect when it's been edited/trimmed down *lol*

 

[Vartha]

I just found the feature on daily motion sus) *sigh* it's the truncated version (not to mention them talking over it too). Still don't understand why Marvel didn't officially release his full 4+ minute speech - it doesn't have quite the same effect when it's been edited/trimmed down *lol*

lol I have that version the unedited, and a lot of it seemed unnecessary and too much. lol
But to talk about Loki and Tom making him come to life, THAT is the video to show that, and how fans react to him.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

There's only been 2 movies in Phase 2 so far, we have like 3 left so there's still a lot of time left.

I am talking about the solo movies, at this point the best I can hope is 2 disappointing movies and 2 really good ones, hopefully Cap 2 and GOTG (HUGE fan of those characters BTW) are good.

I don't even think it's that, I understand his motivations perfectly. I just wanted to see more of him because they had created a good look and presence for him. That and pushing harder on the parallel I spoke of.

I don't have that many issues with the movie, I mainly just want to see more of certain things.

I understood his motivations, but it would have been nice to know more about them, and to know more about him and what drives him.

I have other issues with the movie (on re-watch I find the 2nd half of the movie really boring), but Malekith is one of the bigger ones.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

how can you say he's not evil? He KILLED over Half his RACE in order to obtain the power of the Aether. See, this is was gets me, just because Malekith doesn't overreact all the time like Loki tends to people don't see him threatening.
He was a step worse than Zod if you think about it. Malekith was wanting to replace the WHOLE GALAXY with his own.
That's the one part of the film I think is messed up. They should have gone with ENGLISH rather than Dark Elvish. It would have translated better what a nut job Mal really is

Well yeah he was definitely evil but not pure evil as in mustache-twirling evil-for-the-sake-of-evil evil. He had an objective and in his mind all his actions to achieve that objective were right. Even Algrim never wavered in his commitment to Malekith and their goal or questioned their methods.

We also are led to understand that his drive and hatred doesn't necessarily define him by the parallel they draw with Odin. Odin is driven to the same mindset out of grief and anger and that's the same feelings that Malekith is driven by.

That's a great point. I really liked that scene. It raised some interesting questions about what is right and wrong and is also an important scene for Thor's character arc as well.

I still wish that we could at least have gotten to see the scene where he talks about his family with Algrim. I think that would have been a great piece of that particular puzzle. Especially since Eccleston seems to be so fond of that scene.

I agree completely.

I have other issues with the movie (on re-watch I find the 2nd half of the movie really boring), but Malekith is one of the bigger ones.

To each his own but that's actually surprising to me since the second half was the most praised by critics. Also all the complaints by fans that there were too many Earth scenes is mirrored by complaints by the general audience and critics that there weren't enough Earth scenes. Can't please everyone I guess.

 

[Mjölnir]

how can you say he's not evil? He KILLED over Half his RACE in order to obtain the power of the Aether. See, this is was gets me, just because Malekith doesn't overreact all the time like Loki tends to people don't see him threatening.
He was a step worse than Zod if you think about it. Malekith was wanting to replace the WHOLE GALAXY with his own.
That's the one part of the film I think is messed up. They should have gone with ENGLISH rather than Dark Elvish. It would have translated better what a nut job Mal really is

To throw my own view into it I think it depends on how you define evil. Malekith has done evil deeds but I don't think he's truly evil as his goal is the good of his people. He's grown extremely desperate though and is seemingly capable of anything, as he clearly sacrifices a lot of his people to let the dream live on. There is a scene in the movie where he is saddened by his legacy of having destroyed his own world, but it quickly turns into anger focused against Asgard instead.

In the end I guess evil for the sake of evil is pretty rare and it's mostly a point of view, depending on who's side you're on.

Yeah I wanted to see that too.
Only a few flashed scenes where you can see why Mal went off the deep end would have helped

Yes, it would have been nice to see some glimpses of him growing into that desperation.

That's a great point. I really liked that scene. It raised some interesting questions about what is right and wrong and is also an important scene for Thor's character arc as well.

Yes, that's the big turning point for Thor to realize what he truly wants. If ruling can even cause the great Odin to falter then it's indeed a heavy burden.

It reminds me that I always find it odd when some say that it's more of a Loki movie than a Thor movie. Loki doesn't have more of a changing arc than Thor, the opposite if anything, and he doesn't have that much screen time.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

To each his own but that's actually surprising to me since the second half was the most praised by critics. Also all the complaints by fans that there were too many Earth scenes is mirrored by complaints by the general audience and critics that there weren't enough Earth scenes. Can't please everyone I guess.

Its only on re-watch I have found this, but yeah, once they leave Asgard with Jane, the movie just becomes boring to me. Loki is the only saving grace. The final battle REALLY suffers for me on repeat viewings, its just not excitable and doesnt have tension. The amount of jokes really dont help at that point.

 

[Vartha]

SEE, another thing people don't really take into account is WHY BOR was stopping Mal too. We never saw anything of what went on BEFORE Bor went to war against the Dark elves back THEN.

To throw my own view into it I think it depends on how you define evil. Malekith has done evil deeds but I don't think he's truly evil as his goal is the good of his people. He's grown extremely desperate though and is seemingly capable of anything, as he clearly sacrifices a lot of his people to let the dream live on. There is a scene in the movie where he is saddened by his legacy of having destroyed his own world, but it quickly turns into anger focused against Asgard instead.

In the end I guess evil for the sake of evil is pretty rare and it's mostly a point of view, depending on who's side you're on.



Yes, it would have been nice to see some glimpses of him growing into that desperation.



Yes, that's the big turning point for Thor to realize what he truly wants. If ruling can even cause the great Odin to falter then it's indeed a heavy burden.

It reminds me that I always find it odd when some say that it's more of a Loki movie than a Thor movie. Loki doesn't have more of a changing arc than Thor, the opposite if anything, and he doesn't have that much screen time.

 

[Vartha]

Its only on re-watch I have found this, but yeah, once they leave Asgard with Jane, the movie just becomes boring to me. Loki is the only saving grace. The final battle REALLY suffers for me on repeat viewings, its just not excitable and doesnt have tension. The amount of jokes really dont help at that point.

It must be me, but I loved the whole Movie like I've said ACCEPT for the Elvish spoken. I can see doing maybe a few scenes with Asgardians in it and they're speaking Elvish but scenes where it's just the Dark Elves could have been in english. That's my only gripe

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^I dont find that a problem really, the DE speaking elvish, have seen plenty of foreign movies that didnt have a problem conveying the right emotions in the right scenes and here it wouldnt have been different. Except Malekith didnt really convey anything.

The Aether actually had more personality than him a lot of the time.

 

[Loki882]

Yeah, maybe it was the actor, or the direction, or something else, but Malekith speaking Elvish robbed him of any personality that he might have had (and he didn't have much to begin with). It's a shame because comic book Malekith has A LOT of personality and is really entertaining. Eccleston would have been PERFECT for comic book Malekith.

 

[Loki882]

SEE, another thing people don't really take into account is WHY BOR was stopping Mal too. We never saw anything of what went on BEFORE Bor went to war against the Dark elves back THEN.

Yeah, it would have been nice to get some actual context. WHY are these two races at war. Also, if the DE were so ancient and powerful (they whupped the present-day Asgardians pretty good) then how was Bor and the ancient Asgardians able to defeat them? Context movie context.

 

[BoredGuy]

I don't see a problem with the Elvish.
A proper director could've gotten the right emotions across, whatever the language

and I agree with Mjolnir up there^ that Thor was more changed by the end of the film than Loki.

The problem was, that change wasn't earned, at all.

There was, what, one line of him disagreeing with Odin's rule??
More of that court intrigue and showing the sacrifices Odin has to make, and the "how could my father do such a thing" type scenes would've helped a lot to make Thor's arc more convincing.

Instead by the end, my only thought was, "you still have the bridge, and you saved the day, and you even had to bring Natalie-Jane Foster to Asgard to do it, so... why can't you protect earth from Asgard??"
He changed, yes, but it made little sense as to why

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't see a problem with the Elvish.
A proper director could've gotten the right emotions across, whatever the language

and I agree with Mjolnir up there^ that Thor was more changed by the end of the film than Loki.

The problem was, that change wasn't earned, at all.

There was, what, one line of him disagreeing with Odin's rule??
More of that court intrigue and showing the sacrifices Odin has to make, and the "how could my father do such a thing" type scenes would've helped a lot to make Thor's arc more convincing.

Instead by the end, my only thought was, "you still have the bridge, and you saved the day, and you even had to bring Natalie-Jane Foster to Asgard to do it, so... why can't you protect earth from Asgard??"
He changed, yes, but it made little sense as to why

As many foreign movies and other fantasy movies like LOTR and even Star Wars have done.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I don't see a problem with the Elvish.
A proper director could've gotten the right emotions across, whatever the language

I was fine with the Elvish. Taylor had said he wanted the language to establish the Elves as having their own deep history and culture separate from the other realms. I thought it was cool that they were able to develop an entirely new language and that the actors were able to learn it in such a short period of time. I'm still wondering why Asgardians speak English. At least they aren't speaking Middle English.

and I agree with Mjolnir up there^ that Thor was more changed by the end of the film than Loki.

The problem was, that change wasn't earned, at all.

There was, what, one line of him disagreeing with Odin's rule??
More of that court intrigue and showing the sacrifices Odin has to make, and the "how could my father do such a thing" type scenes would've helped a lot to make Thor's arc more convincing.

Instead by the end, my only thought was, "you still have the bridge, and you saved the day, and you even had to bring Natalie-Jane Foster to Asgard to do it, so... why can't you protect earth from Asgard??"
He changed, yes, but it made little sense as to why

I agree with Mjolnir as well. But I don't feel the change wasn't earned. There is more to it than that one line of dialogue.

Thor's arc doesn't begin in this film. It begins in the first. This film is just continuing that arc.

In the first film, Thor's cockiness brought him low and during his stint on Earth he had no idea what Odin had in store for him nor did he know what he wanted to do with himself. He was lost. During this vulnerable period, he was moved by Jane's kindness and her devotion to her work showed him strength where formerly he would've seen weakness. He learned to appreciate the value of all life and was willing to sacrifice his own for it when his new friends and the people of Earth were threatened by the Destroyer. His sacrifice restores Odin's faith in his son and Mjolnir becomes his once again.

Even though he is now restored to his birthright however, the beginning of this film shows that he's still lost. He's dutifully restoring order to the Nine Realms as son of Odin and heir to the throne but he's clearly restless, pining for Jane and uncertain of his role - which is why he can no longer revel with his friends and looks for Jane every night from the Bifrost. Even Odin recognizes it in their first dialogue together.

Thor regards Jane very highly. Later on when Odin recounts the tale of the Dark Elves and Jane asks what happened to them, the Allfather said that Bor "killed them all" this does not sit well with Jane.

Then comes the confrontation you reference where Thor seeks to avoid further bloodshed via his ultimately foolhardy plan of which Odin does not approve. Odin is prepared to sacrifice every "last drop of Asgardian blood" which prompts Thor to ask how is he different from Malekith. This is the same Thor that earlier destroyed the Bifrost to save the Jotuns, a whole other species that he would've killed with his bare hands. Thor clearly doesn't want anyone to die. Thor wants to save everyone and thinks he can. But you can't be king and not be willing to risk the lives of others. In the first film, Loki said he had gone soft.

Then there is the moment between Loki and Thor on the skiff. After Loki says "satisfaction is not in my nature", Thor states that "surrender is not in mine". And after almost losing Jane and being told by everyone that it will never work, he's no longer willing to be apart. By favoring Midgard, he's trying to "do it all" - protect the realms but be with the girl he loves.

All of it's interconnected. Thor is drawn to Earth because of Jane but he also is just not plain ready for the throne. I'm sure Thor's denial of the throne is not without a little selfishness. Even in the comics he was kind of irresponsible at times. In the end, he will have to rise to his duty. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all shakes down.

You're right that they could've flushed it out further though. Stuff like this is where I feel the film was too compressed and would've benefited from a longer run time. The cues are there but it's a short film covering a lot of ground with concurrent plot lines and those cues are easy to miss.

I love this film but the short run time is my biggest complaint. Iron Man 3 and now CA:TWS are both two hours plus. I hope Thor 3 gets its proper due.

 

[BigThor]

It reminds me that I always find it odd when some say that it's more of a Loki movie than a Thor movie. Loki doesn't have more of a changing arc than Thor, the opposite if anything, and he doesn't have that much screen time.

It annoys me when people say that, it just doesn't make any sense honestly it's just them preferring Loki as a character.

 

[Vartha]

But what if THESE Dark Elves aren't as EMOTIONAL as we are?
I mean look at Vulcans! They're Space Elves and are emotionless! lol

I don't see a problem with the Elvish.
A proper director could've gotten the right emotions across, whatever the language

and I agree with Mjolnir up there^ that Thor was more changed by the end of the film than Loki.

The problem was, that change wasn't earned, at all.

There was, what, one line of him disagreeing with Odin's rule??
More of that court intrigue and showing the sacrifices Odin has to make, and the "how could my father do such a thing" type scenes would've helped a lot to make Thor's arc more convincing.

Instead by the end, my only thought was, "you still have the bridge, and you saved the day, and you even had to bring Natalie-Jane Foster to Asgard to do it, so... why can't you protect earth from Asgard??"
He changed, yes, but it made little sense as to why

 

[herolee10]

When I think about it now, I remember on how most of the biggest praise for this film (that I recall at least) where primarily centered on Loki and the visuals.

I think the last time that i remember Thor being in the spotlight and center of attention from reviews was back in his first film, but Loki has been allowed to seemingly overshadow him within their last two appearances, which is rather sad when I think about it. I truly believe that Thor, as a character, has a lot to offer and show on screen that would be just as interesting as anything we've gotten with Tom's Loki.

Also, I feel like Marvel somewhat held back on fully exploring the notion that Odin and his father before him weren't the so noble kings that people had portrayed them to be as they have their own list of unethical things that they've done in order to secure and maintain Asgard's safety and status.

I think it would have really made for some compelling storytelling if they had gone deeper into that.

I really hope that Marvel Studios finds someone who has a CLEAR vision of what needs to be down for Thor, not Loki, but Thor as a character.

I'm hopeful that Marvel studios is taking their time with this third installment, due to the fact that we have a third Captain America film coming out before this one.

And more importantly, hope the next Thor film actually centers around him.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

But what if THESE Dark Elves aren't as EMOTIONAL as we are?
I mean look at Vulcans! They're Space Elves and are emotionless! lol

That's kind of how I took it. A once proud race who's world was overthrown by this one. They are detached from this existence because to them it is anathema.

 

[Mjölnir]

It must be me, but I loved the whole Movie like I've said ACCEPT for the Elvish spoken. I can see doing maybe a few scenes with Asgardians in it and they're speaking Elvish but scenes where it's just the Dark Elves could have been in english. That's my only gripe

I didn't have a problem with it but I think it's probably easier for me to get into it, having grown up in a non-English speaking country and therefor I have gotten used to subtitles. I stopped using subs for English long ago (funnily enough I started learning English as a kid from watching English speaking cartoons, and wrestling, without subs) but I still find it easy to focus on both subs and the movie.

and I agree with Mjolnir up there^ that Thor was more changed by the end of the film than Loki.

The problem was, that change wasn't earned, at all.

There was, what, one line of him disagreeing with Odin's rule??
More of that court intrigue and showing the sacrifices Odin has to make, and the "how could my father do such a thing" type scenes would've helped a lot to make Thor's arc more convincing.

Instead by the end, my only thought was, "you still have the bridge, and you saved the day, and you even had to bring Natalie-Jane Foster to Asgard to do it, so... why can't you protect earth from Asgard??"
He changed, yes, but it made little sense as to why

The issue wasn't him wanting to protect Earth, it was him having seen what is required to rule and what that can do to you, and that was something he didn't want to do. He was never really happy when he was doing his duties after the first Thor up until now, and when he also sees what depths ruling can bring you to it made him realize that it wasn't for him at all. That the Bifrost is still there is actually a relevant point of his decision as he says that he will protect Asgard when it needs him, but he doesn't want to rule it and he wants to be somewhere else.

But what if THESE Dark Elves aren't as EMOTIONAL as we are?
I mean look at Vulcans! They're Space Elves and are emotionless! lol

They cleary do have feelings to me, and I think they are gotten across. The issue is that there's only negative emotions left and that drains some emotion out of you. I do agree with you on a more overall note though as they aren't really ruled by their emotions and you don't really need to humanize the ancient race of elves that actually belongs to a different version of the universe.

 

[First Avenger]

Is anybody else happy about the fact that Marvel is seemingly taking its time to do a proper Thor 3?Yost said on his twitter that they are conceptualizing it.Should be huge.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Yeah but at the same time, they had plenty of time to do Thor 2 as well, but I suppose Marvel were simply their own worst enemies on TDW. Patty Jenkins left over creative differences, and Taylor clearly wasnt happy with the version of the movie that was released.

So taking more time might not mean a thing if they are wanting to micro-manage the Thor franchise. Just hope whoever they hire for the 3rd gets more freedom than Taylor got.

 

[First Avenger]

^Yeah but at the same time, they had plenty of time to do Thor 2 as well, but I suppose Marvel were simply their own worst enemies on TDW. Patty Jenkins left over creative differences, and Taylor clearly wasnt happy with the version of the movie that was released.

So taking more time might not mean a thing if they are wanting to micro-manage the Thor franchise. Just hope whoever they hire for the 3rd gets more freedom than Taylor got.

We also have to consider all the different writers that worked on it,now that Yost and Kyle are there from the get-go they can at least get a more focused script.You know I liked what Taylor did with TDW visually and I really love the movie despite the obvious problems but I get the impression that he really wasn't as passioned as,say,favreau with IM or the Russos with CA.The screenwriters are good,they worked together for years so there is hope.

 

[herolee10]

^Yeah but at the same time, they had plenty of time to do Thor 2 as well, but I suppose Marvel were simply their own worst enemies on TDW. Patty Jenkins left over creative differences, and Taylor clearly wasnt happy with the version of the movie that was released.

So taking more time might not mean a thing if they are wanting to micro-manage the Thor franchise. Just hope whoever they hire for the 3rd gets more freedom than Taylor got.

I'm not so sure about that.

Heck, I think the reason why Kenneth, the Director for the first "Thor" film, chose not to return for the second one is because he said that he wanted more time to prep for it but that Marvel was insistent in releasing the sequel just two years after having released the first film.

Plus, I think another problem is that they just couldn't find a Director that they wanted who could provide a SOLID vision and foundation as to where the character should go. I think it's because of that lack of vision that the studio decided to meddle in with this film's production in the amount that they did.

The things that I heard talked most about this film when they were promoting it was how Asgard felt more real and how they wanted something new for Loki's character and his dynamics with Thor.

If anything, i think the producers also wanted to capitalize on the huge following that Loki and Tom was receiving from his previous two portrayals as Loki.