Discussion in 'Thor: The Dark World' started by Thread Manager, Nov 15, 2012.
I thought of that after I posted my earlier comment. That might make more sense-haha
@LokiDionysos: the idea of all the magic in the MCU actually being science, some of it not yet understood by people on Earth, captured my imagination when I first saw Thor1. Reading various comments by my fellow members here and my own inability to tie what we've already seen in the various movies to branches of science made me think I was going to have to let go of that notion. You have some new ideas of how that could yet work, so I'm jazzed about that.
What you're proposing adds several layers of exposition, so Marvel Studios will be challenged to weave the whole narrative in a way that people not already familiar with all the characters can understand. As an example from my own experience, when the rumor first was floated about Dr. Strange appearing in Thor2, I was dismayed to find his page on the Marvel wiki to be about 3x as long as Thor's with a whole army of people I had never heard of before. So part of me hoped that the rumor was a red herring because it was so daunting to think of trying to learn who all these characters are. And I'm one who is trying to become fully versed in all the Thor stories (at least the major ones), and to become at least conversant with other Marvel properties tied into The Avengers. (And I'll make a good faith effort to read up on all these people you mention, I promise!) So I think Marvel will have their work cut out for them to keep the general audience with them. Not that I don't think they can do it, just that it's a challenge.
They will want each film to work as stand-alone pieces as well. Not everyone will see all films, yet will need to be able to follow what is going on in whatever film in which they find themselves.
What you are laying out for us is quite rich in detail, though. We're starting to discuss some of the ideas in the "Plots based on Spoilers" thread, so please be sure to look there too (and add to those plot lines if you so desire)
See. I see it differently. I see it as they use magic the way we use science. jane said, magic is science we don't understand yet. Thor said they are one in the same. There are some things about even MCU magic that to me, is simply not science. The destroyer. I am pretty sure it was just an empty suit of armor. Odin's verbal enchantment. Loki's duplication. Since it is speculation, and it hasn't been said that magic IS science, then I will be willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and say that there is indeed magic in the mcu
I can see you put a lot of work into this and it's interesting the way your mind works, because you can almost see all of these very large and complicated ideas going off in your head like a light bulb, and then to see you trying to work out how that would effect other things within the Marvel Universe and then to try to have it tie all together is amazing. I won't even begin to try anything of this magnitude, and my hats off to you for even attempting something of such a grand scale.
Interesting idea to use Greenwich mean time / prime meridian line (where time begins and ends), to also be where alternate timelines can be accessed. It makes sense to me and I think it was a good choice if they are going to explore time travel in these movies to use this location as the source of where it all begins. Thanks for posting marvel_freshman
I know it's kind of confusing. I think there choice of location for time travel if it does indeed play a part is a great choice, but not sure how it will all fit in.
Wait a minute I think I figured it out. Asgard is earth in the future.
Time travel? Ugh that sucks. Why can't malekith just be from a different realm?
I agree with you it is hard to see how certain things can be explained as even advanced technology when it seems to us to be pretty obvious that it's magic. However, I think that it all rests on this one line. Magic is advanced technology "that we do not yet understand".
So in other words by incorportaing that little part it gives Marvel the out that they need to continue people believing they are one in the same (Magic and Technology), where they don't need to necessarilly explain everything because their explanation could be that even if explained to us our brains still could not comprehend it.
Almost like teaching quantum physics to a newborn.
Well lets just see how it plays out, if it does indeed happen as this person suggests. Perhaps the time traveler is not Malekith, but another Marvel character their to observe the battle, perhaps to set their character up a little for some sort of sequel or crossover.
I'm with you on this one! I think I would prefer the theory of ley-lines to time travel, at least ley-lines would fit in with filming at Stonehenge....
I said this in the plot thread ..... but I highly doubt we're getting time travel. It's such a convoluted element to bring into the fold. I think people's imaginations are starting to get the best of them.
That's a cool idea too!
Yeah, I doubt it too, but I think people are just having fun with speculating "What if's".
Once again this is speculating, and it most likely has no relationship to the movie, Time Travel could be a good explanation as to why Jane Foster is as at Greenwich University. Perhaps she discovered that Space Travel and Time Travel are interconnected and that the source of all of this is at the prime merridian, so in hopes of finding information that will lead her to Thor she goes to the Univesity where she would have access to it's library as well as the ability to take readings using her device of the area. I just thought it would possibly help explain why Jane would be at that specific location.
Anyways, just more thoughs, once again of which most likely have no relevance.
It probably would help her advance her research generally, as well.
That, and the way to have good ideas is to have lots of ideas (some of which might be duds). You play with a bunch of ideas that ultimately you set aside, and somewhere in there comes the spark for something that really works.
I don't think we're going to figure out however much of the real plot that we do all in one "Eureka!" moment. It will be through kicking around a bunch of ideas, looking at it from many angles, some of the thoughts being quite out of the box. And after a while we'll say, "Well X works, and Y, and also W. But they probably won't do A, B, C, or D. And there's not enough information to make a determination regarding Z."
What she said. lol..
speaking of which, some new ideas in the plot thread if anyone wants to join us and give your 2 cents.
exactly, as you and I have said before, most likely we all probably aren't even close as to what is going on, and who is going to appear.But its fun speculating
I gotta say this but Chris' stunt double is pretty hot in his own right. He should have his own fangirl legion.
Thanks Surfer that really encourages me to keep looking for new ways to try to tie things together. I think a lot of things in movies can be predicted when you start looking at the possible themes, patterns, hidden foreshadowing, the sources/story-lines they're drawing from and the like. So I agree with a lot of people's speculation here about the way a lot of this movie will go. What has me fascinated is the possession of Jane angle, how that all ties together. Is it Malekith doing it? Or is it actually Hela or someone else and that ties into her research and why Malekith is told to retrieve her? This movie's the most interesting to me in Phase 2 because even in other scenarios I've thought of I can't really predict what will happen. I enjoy reading everyone's speculation here because I think this movie will really help us determine how the rest of phase 2 will play out. Because of the new info like the spaceship crashing, which could still be anyone's, and all the other things going on.
Some of the other info about the guy who insisted the prime miridian be called the "time-line" + people referring to the merging of realms/universes has me interested. Although I do also think it could be Malekith trying to merge Midgard with Surtur's realm or another world. Still, the recent mention of a line that divides the world based on time has me very excited about where this could all lead. If anything I think they a have a real chance to explain a little bit more about magic in this movie, since Malekith will most likely be using more magic than Loki has so far. Loki mostly only created shadow copies of himself so far. If they choose to use Beta Ray Bill in some way I think there's a way to work him into Thor 3, after the merging of realities in this movie when another darker version of Thor comes into it. Why is the "stunt double's" suit different all of the sudden? Darker. Why is he a little bigger than Thor? Why does he seem so close to Malekith? Is movie magic gonna eventually turn him into something else? Does it turn out Thor actually can be in two places at once... after he makes one moral sacrifice and is prepared to make another.
However, everything in the universe may be connected on a subatomic level... it's not completely proven but the "God particle" goes a long way in showing that many things are all connected deep down, and every atom may be connected to each other in some way. Eastern spiritualism (and parts of many other cultures' ancient beliefs) were kind of right and everything is part of one and the same universe/multi-verse. Dr. Strange understands this in a way that the Mandarin does not. The Mandarin has to cheat by bringing too much outside science into it to perform his sorcery. Some eastern mystic and cultural beliefs teach that we're all one, even though we appear separate. Everything in the universe is connected to each other when you reach a certain wave that permeates all matter in subatomic space. In Norse mythology some of this idea is represented by Yggdrasil. It's "all one and the same", magic and science, everything connected by the invisible branches, bringing in either ideas about string theory or miniature black holes. At this point science understands things may all be connected within matter. Tony's nano-technology only furthers these miniaturization connecting to expansion themes on the scientific side, creating nano-technology that controls the suit, and more forms of AI. Now that the "god particle" has been discovered I think they may actually refer to quantum mechanics even more when Ant Man comes into it. The Pyms, Stark, Selvig(a huge help because of exposure to the cube... meaning that according to string theory he has an eternal bond to it...), Foster, and Shield start figuring a lot of things out when they get together. There would be dimensions higher than Asgard, and even "one above all".
Some of this stuff is working under the assumption that there's truth to the spoilers that recently came from the dude on twitter, and that Janet/Wasp is secretly in Iron Man 3 working for AIM (really just an extension of Hydra). Plus a little bit of truth to some of the GoTG rumors. GoTG has to be tied to the other characters in some way, it just makes it easier so that Warlock can show up in the final battle against Thanos. I'd place a reference to the Sorcerer Supreme in this movie, but not have Strange actually feature... For all we know Odin is referring to the current Sorcerer Supreme, the man who will train Stephen Strange as his replacement.
I really think there was some foreshadowing in Avengers that's not so obvious, similar to the "like the Pharaohs of old" line that could be leading to dealings with time. Malekith can open the doors even more for our sorcerer characters like Strange and Warlock. It's no surprise there were rumors about Strange's involvement but too many things are going on to include him in this movie. A reference to the Sorcerer Supreme might go a long way towards eventually establishing Strange and Warlock. Exploring how Malekith/Loki use magic in this movie might help make incorporating them easier, when they eventually come to the big-screen. Captain America was absolutely correct when he said Loki was the one who was "out of time" in my view "The Other" seems to have the ability to travel between dimensions and meets Loki wherever he does in Avengers. In his mind? Did they physically meet on some plane of reality on the micro scale and not the macro? Is Avengers 2 an attack from time that includes all their personal foes? Is Red Skull still in the 40's...?
Yeah, I really don't know how to place it. If it's a very powerful being possessing her, why would it need to do that? Especially if it's for a prolonged time. And how can Jane be rid of the malevolent spirit?
I suspect we may not have enough information to figure out this part.
Well, yes. Otherwise, we have nothing to go on.
Totally agree, I just have a strong feeling it could be Hela because it ties nicely with the Dark Elves, and Surtur because they live in the lower realms, or dimensions that are thought of as existing below. It would make Hela/Hel part of science as well. She exists in the negative spaces. We're talking dark matter, anti-matter.
Almost like Asgard and Valhalla exist in the higher dimensions outlined by string theory. And Hel, and a lot of aspects of the lower realms dwell in the other, lower, and inner sides of the universe. Or an in-between dimension on the micro side of things in the case of the Negative Zone. Check out the negative zone, if you have the time, I think it'll be a part of Ant Man's character eventually. This wouldn't start time travel directly with this movie, but if Jane has AIM's time-line viewer that keeps being messed with by Hela it could lead to bigger things while opening us up more to the other physical dimensions. Remember how something seemed to phase into existence in the Captain America movie when Red Skull was powering up the cube, and whatever it was made sounds for a second or two? Would that have been the Chitari in the 40's?
But yeah Hela wouldn't need to do that unless there's an end-game.
So in my theory she can only work one being at a time by possessing them from the inside; if all matter is connected deep down. She can skip over to other people temporarily and return to anyone once she starts gathering souls/life energy and feeding her and Surtur. Some sort of force is stopping them from raising the other dimensions through Midguard and into the higher realms to aid in Malekith's attack. Midgard's in the middle of it all and Malekith is the key to Hela and Surtur resurfacing. Malekith is doing the dirty work trying to stop the force that's trapped Surtur and Hela in the negative side of the lower realms for all eternity. For lack of a better word they end up "breaking" the timeline, affecting the space-time continuum, and angering Immortus/the Other who need this timeline a certain way. They can't do too much manipulation with this timeline/universe because they've already been all over the past and future before these events. Immortus confronts Ant Man and steals the Ultron prototype in the 80's, it was Shields's mistake and Pym was never heard from again. If it weren't for Immortus Ant Man would exist already... this is something Immortus intends to bury, to stomp out. The fact that hank's Pym paticles can be enhanced by hitching a ride along with neutrinos and traveling to other times and dimensions like the negative Zone helps him escape Immortus and imprison parts of Ultron and the Kang doubles. Pym from the 80's shows up in Avengers 2, we know something is up with his movie after this point and the Masters of Evil being assembled from across time. An attack from time instead of space.
That dude could take over as thor if chris steps down. lol. He looks great. Doubt he can act though.
I'd love to add to all the speculation being thrown around. I enjoyed reading @loki's ideas on tying things together. But i guess I'm more of a wait and see person haha. I already hate myself for coming to sites like these and seeing behind the scenes stuff and inside info, plus reading everyone's theorys. Cannot wait for phase 2 to get up and running, especially Thor and Iron Man, not too fond of Captain America, I sorta find him boring a cheesy (don't hate me! haha) and I really know nothing about GotG so I'm excited for that as well.
Your welcome and I am glad you will continue to share your thoughts with us. Also, I agree I think Thor 2 could possibly be the phase 2 project with the most significance leading up to the Avengers 2, with perhaps the exception in my opinion of GOTG. I think it's possible in Thor 2 you might have some of Thanos's minions trying to hunt down Loki, but I don't see Thanos himself as getting much screen time if any in this film. However, with GOTG I see Thanos being set up as a major character and quite likely to be the main villian in the movie, making his appearance there the most relevant and the events from there directly will most likely pertain to Avengers 2. I also think Thanos is important to help draw people in that are most likely unfamiliar with the GOTG characters. Essentially Thanos is their wild card to insure that they fill theater seats with people.
1st person ....... Are you going to see Guardians of the Galaxy.
2nd person ........ Guardians of the who?
1st person ......... Yeah, I know I have never heard of them either, but it's said to feature the evil guy that was behind everything in the after scene credits of Marvel's Avengers. So, I want to see how this all connects together and learn more about that mysterious character.
2nd person ......... Cool lets go check it out.