Discussion in 'Thor: The Dark World' started by Thread Manager, Nov 15, 2012.
Captain America is for me, THE superhero.
as for the being who posesses jane, I really have NO idea
I liked how Warren Ellis described magic in Planetary as the cheat codes of the universe.
Science is mathematical equations. Magic is the backdoor cheat codes written into the universe.
Iron Man 3 has what appears to be sentient armor, JARVIS is sentient A.I. To me neither of those things are that different to the magic of the Destroyer.
the universe goes far beyond mathematics .
from a fictional standpoint, magic seems to be an art, a practice
I think it would be cool if Ley Lines were involved.
Has anyone else speculated on what Eric Selvig was shown/learned (science-wise) when working with the Tesseract? Does he now have a bunch of crazy science knowledge? That he could work with Jane to produce that hand held thingy and more...
That's a really good point. For a while I've held the opinion that Thanos would be overshadowing GoTG and then get directly involved in things right at the end of Avengers 2--after some other threat was dealt with by the final act. After remembering/realizing that a lot of the movie business is marketing, I think you're absolutely right and they'll advertise the fact that Thanos is in GoTG to the GA. Feige has already pretty much confirmed that Thanos is in both GoTG and Avengers 2 to the fans so we definitely have to factor that in.
I still think a fully powered Thanos may be too much for the team to take on in Avengers 2. I now really think he could be a major part of GoTG, but maybe he's not as big a part of Avengers 2 as we're thinking.
He'll definitely be in it no doubt. But unless they do add some characters to the team before then, I don't think he'll have the infinity gauntlet or gems or anything. He may even be too powerful to take on even without the Gauntlet, but we could see characters added and abilities slightly expanded by then. You never know. If they're doing Infinity gauntlet they'd start setting it up soon, and not just rush towards it right after GoTG. So I really think we'll know more after this movie. They may have the time to do that, but I'm still thinking Thanos will be a presence all the way through the series until Avengers 3, when it's time for the final showdown and all the powerful characters can join in the final battle of the movie to challenge Thanos.
I totally agree that Thanos won't be in this movie but I'm pretty sure "The Other" is in the Bourne woods scenes. So it does seem like Thanos's minion may be involved. Either punishing Loki or doing something else.
I don't think thanos will have the IG either. Though he is confirmed for guardians.
I've always thought of magic as the ability to manipulate matter with your own body.
basically, my point is that it isn't science lol
science we don't understand is....science we don't understand lo. Y'know? Magic is magic. The fact of it being "science we don't understand" takes away from it being magic in the first place. It's magic.
I hope we get to see more Asgaridan artifacts used/shown in this film. I'm not talking about things like the cosmic cube, but more practical things, like the "healing stones" that were never shown in the theatrical cut of "Thor".
I've always thought of magic as the ability to warp reality with a source of energy. The energy can come from within (Ki,Chi,Chakara) or I can come from and external force a (Nature, a god). You could just make up an energy source (Power Cosmic, Odin Force, ect.....)
Anime has been able to bridge the gap between magic and science nicely. energy is energy. It doesn't mater if the energy is scientifically created or mystical in origin as long as it able to warps reality its doing it job.
It's like when you think about the Androids in DBZ would you consider them Magical robots because they are fueled by Ki? Baba yaga the witch also uses the same energy to see into the future, Materialize object out of thin air, and revive the dead for one day. It's all about blurring the lines between science and magic.
Android 16, 17, & 18
they were shown, just not explained
Really? In the theatrical cut? I don't recall seeing them in the theatrical cut of the film.
Yeah, in the healing room Hogun applies them on Volstagg's arm after they returned from Jountheim.
This is in line with the definition of magic given on the Marvel wikia:
Magic is the practice of utilizing certain universal energies and extra-dimensional forces whose nature is beyond the scope of the technologically-oriented science of all known sentient races. It is often used to simulate other powers, such as reality warping, mind control and elemental attacks.
Sources of Magical Power:
Personal Energies - The mental and spiritual powers that mystics and sorcerers develop for themselves (psionics, chi-manipulation, astral projection, thought-casting, etc.)
Ambient Magical Energy of the Universe - Magicians can tap this power for many effects, such as teleportation and energy bolts. By definition, this is derived from Eternity. These generally involves actual casting of spells and may be limited to the main dimension learned and may not work in others.
Extradimensional Magical Energy - powers gained through the tapping of extra-dimensional energy and by invoking entities or objects of power existing in mystical dimensions, with different physical and magical laws, tangential to our own. Unlike the first two, the entities invoked generally have a say in how or if the power is used.
Items - Magic may also come in the form of items imbued with power, such as the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak. These are often created by powerful sorcerors and exter-dimensional entities and vary in function and power.
Loki is listed as an example of someone who can use magic.
The wikia entry for Malekith says that he taps "mystical energy", which I suppose falls under the category of "Ambient Magical Energy of the Universe" listed above.
Marvel just needs to establish those sources of energy with in the MCU. They also need to show people taping into and using those energies to do what we would consider traditional magic like spells, charms, or incantations. On the flip side they could also show people like Thanos using advance tech to tap into those same energies or show him using both. It's not so much about either or. It's about blurring the lines.
It would be nice to see Loki using Sorcery.
Oh wow; I didn't even realize that.lol I thought it was some kind of ointment but I didn't realize that it was the healing stones...lol
The true nature of the universe is energy. Everything is energy. Our human senses allow us to observe, experience and access only a small part of the electro-magnetic spectrum. Everything we sense exists on this spectrum somewhere. But everything around us is actually made up of electro-magnetic waves that we're barely aware of because of our physical existence. Things like reptiles and fish can see more than us in the visible sections of the spectrum, going into the infrared. There are audible parts of the spectrum that we can't hear that dogs can... There may be parts of the spectrum we will never touch or manipulate unless we evolve things like our vision further like reptiles, or even increase our use of our brains overtime, unlocking that extra 90% that humans don't use.
That's a great way of breaking down fictional magic that someone just posted. I think we'll see a little bit of everything. Showing intra-dimensional/inner mystical powers over energies/matter, as well as extra(or intra)-dimensional powers from the being possessing Jane. Which would be close to true magic that can't be understood, because it's coming from a dimension outside our reality that the Asgardians are aware of. Malekith doesn't need science to help him access/manipulate these energies, because his power would come from the inside, inner mysticism, intra-dimensions. His thought-casting or spells/enchantments are able to be directed within his mind instead of uttering them. He only has to think the spell to cause a vibration outside his body. Malekith doesn't need extra-dimensional powers from anyone, but may be able to communicate with the extra or intra dimensional i.e. Hela and/or Surtur.
Less powerful sorcerers have to say the spell because they can't project their thoughts as a vibration, so they need the sound vibration. Or in Strange's case he would sometimes need to say spells because he's human... and needs the sound vibration to cause higher level magic. Extra-dimensional genetics would play into it in my theory. Something Iron Man takes an interest in, and so does Sterns... A radically changed version of Sterns when we meet him.
The subtle vibration that's released and associated to the spell/enchantment thought-casted or spoken/written, brings sudden ripples into the physical universe.
These vibrations cross into other areas of the electro-magnetic spectrum, and aspects of the sub-atomic world connecting us all, that only sorcerers/mystics are aware of and manipulate directly with their minds.
So yes, in a way them having the power to manipulate matter on a large scale simply by directing their own energies and altering the underlying subatomic configuration of things is like a form of magic.
No real-world mystic would be able to have the willpower to actually do some of the things outlined in fiction.
I really think they will stick to the whole magic and science being one thing. Mystics, enchanted item users, and those who access other dimensions for their powers are the only ones truly aware of the subtle energies that connect all matter.
This is almost proven science too, some of the inter-connected stuff, when you look at some of the new ideas in quantum mechanics. The god particle has the perfect name to be referenced by either Tony or Pym in relation to Asgardians and magic/mysticism. Additionally, we still don't know enough about the existence of higher and lower dimensions in string theory, or things in the subatomic world. So, it's an area of science we don't understand completely... And can be easily tied into mystical beliefs about everything being one.
It's a perfect way to make Ant Man's powers a little less magical, while using science to help the magical characters seem more realistic at the same time. The Asgardians are more like users of magically enchanted artifacts, but Thor has to use some will power to cause lightning etc. His enhanced strength and durability would be the result of their nature and position in the dimensions + any added power the enchantment on the hammer is giving him. Eventually he could use the Hammer to do other things like open wormholes.. Only characters who develop a strong will power and can remain incredibly dedicated like Strange or Malekith, can use actual "magic" by manipulating matter on a large scale, starting from tiny vibrations that pulse through the entire electro-magnetic spectrum. Even the parts we can't see or understand.
Thor can do this too with his lightning, because he has to direct the energy the Hammer gives him. He chooses when to use lightning.
I've sort of been a neo-pagan since I was 13, experimented with the Wiccan versions of mystical beliefs, Sumerian/Egyptian magic, and just about everything in-between. In real world "magic" it all comes down to will power, self-hypnosis, and self-fulfilling prophecies. To understand the so-called "secret" you need to understand the nature of the subconscious and its ability to work out complex problems, even while you're consciously unaware. This is why when you have a problem you're told to sleep on it. Sometimes the solution just comes to you or at least seems more clear in the morning. The subconscious is so powerful that we still don't completely understand that aspect of science/our own biology.
In the real world "the secret" only kind of works because you're doing a form of self-hypnosis where you're repeating your goals over and over again and this gets locked into your subconscious. Without you knowing... You're self-hypnotizing and you're not being given a post-hypnotic suggestion to stop that behaviour until you reach your goal or forget about it. There are psychological reasons why it kind of works. You aren't attracting the things that you want to happen... Your subconscious mind is actually working on that goal that's become locked in your mind, even while unaware. It only seems like magic when "the secret" works, because your subconscious has already set you on a path towards the goal. The conscious mind is unknowingly working towards this goal without you thinking about it.
That's how "the secret" sometimes works. It's not magic. Real-world magic is more like a trick in almost all cases. A trick that requires skill and will or smoke and mirrors/stage items to work properly.
Even the people who were involved in a lot of real world "magical" orders were scientists and philosophers in some cases.
People like Sir Francis Bacon were said to practice witch-craft, or the power of the will.
By the time Crowley comes about you really have to understand and read between the lines to see what Crowley is saying. He's not really evil, he likes to appear as the most evil man in the world, and writes evil-seeming things and ideas to conceal his true teachings. It's part of his trick, a subtle manipulation to stop the uninitiated from seeing what is actually there. Satanists are misguided because they took his words to be the absolute truth and didn't look at what he was drawing from.
They worship Satan, but Satan isn't giving them any powers. And they function differently from other self-hypnosis forms of magic used by other groups. Any power they get is coming from the worship of self. Apotheosis. Turning one self into a "god" through will-power. That's at the heart of a lot of the higher level beliefs on the dark side of magic.
Black magic or chaos magic is really just emphasis of the self over all others. White magic is supposed to be for helping people and others through subtle manipulation. There are grey areas, or areas where the two merge within grey magic... A twilight or grey area.
A lot of the groups and members don't even understand that they can't do magic, they're simply enhancing their will-power and moving towards their goals faster. Not actually bringing things into reality all of the sudden.
Of course I can't be sure what goes on at the higher levels, but my knowledge and experience of real-world "magick" plays into this. So I think a lot of it will be based on will power, the power of the mind to access these subtle energies to manipulate reality. Which as far as I know, no one is doing in real life on a scale like Malekith and Loki. It's definitely still magic, or movie/sci-fi magic
I think science and magic are all part of the same spectrum in the MCU. Just opposite ends. Or different points in the electro-magnetic spectrum/fields that only certain characters have access to or can sense/manipulate. Thor exists in a higher dimension than Midguard & has an enhanced connection to the fabric of reality. Kind of still in the physical side of the universe, yet able to transcend many dimensions--so almost like the 5th dimension onwards in string theory. There's predicted to be 10, 11, 12 or more dimensions, of which we can only sense our dimension. At the top of string theory there's one dimension above all. In Avengers 3 I'd reveal that there is a being who comes from the "one above all" dimension. Midgard exists mainly as a physical dimension. Hel is an intra dimension on the lower side of the world tree, at the roots. Asgard, Valhalla and some of the nine realms are on the higher side of things in the upper dimensions outlined by string theory. While Midgard exists in the third dimension. Niffleheim is the second or first dimension (making Hel an intra dimension at the roots of Yggdrasil, below Midgard). And Svartalfheim... well that will play into this. That's the land masses part. A lot of the dimensions above the third would be part of Asgard, as the 5th dimension would extend and be directly connected to the others. Relating to the nine worlds of Asgard. Some of the worlds can't be accessed directly from Midgard. But Asgard connects to the lower worlds at the base of Yggdrasil where Niddhogg chews on the roots.
Midgard is special. All the other realms have some sort of paths to each other along the world tree. The dark elves actually exist in part of Svartalfheim so they're in the higher 7th dimension of Asgard. Other realms are other places. I strongly feel the position of the nine worlds on Yggdrasil will directly tie into this and the merging of realities. Hela and Surtur are stuck at the roots of the world tree... gnawing away at its roots like Nidhogg... they want into the higher realms but Odin is stopping them... Malekith must travel to Midgard and open up another way into Asgard, since Midgard can be reached from Asgard. Because they're trapped in the lower, intra-dimensions of string theory, at the base of the world tree. They have to come through Midgard and Jane Foster... Then Darcy becomes Hela for a while leading into the next films.
Some of the lower dimensions start merging with Midgard as a way into the higher dimensions. Midgard is the middle of it all. A gate keeping Surtur and Hela down there.
Something with Malekith in the past triggered Odin trapping them in the lower dimensions for all eternity.
Hela needs Jane Foster & Malekith to break her and Surtur into the higher dimensions. Because Odin has already trapped them in the inner realms for all existence.
It's from the inside that hell begins to break loose and Malekith intends to raise it.
@LokiDionysos: thanks! I like that explanation of how "magic" could work in the MCU. It sounds like all the characters have the same powers they do in the books (assuming the writers want them to have those powers), but with an underlying structure that's more accessible to us (ie, using scientific language).
I'm very simplistic. I want science to be science (even if it's not fully understood yet) and magic be magic that is not understood by anyone who is not a magician.
I want all human characters (outside of Strange if and when he turns up) to not have a clue how Thor, Loki, Odin et al are doing the things they are doing.
I wouldn't mind Jane screaming in frustration "but I know how you create portals!" and Thor reply with a mysterious smile "Asgardians have used what you term advanced science for many of our solutions, but by no means is it our only tool.".
Or something like that.
Basically, I want magic to be fully in the MCU.
Me TOO. Legit, magic
This is only my speculation, of course. Some of the ways I personally could see them doing it. Based on science and magic being part of the same thing.
Although, I may know a tiny bit more that I'm not saying and only hinting at with my theories and obscuring with long ass posts. The theories themselves are all my own speculation... Let's just say there are definite plans for a couple planetoids at some point and I don't know how some of that will tie in.
I may actually know a tiny bit of information about a certain back-story for one of the villains that I can't consult you on-- I'm attempting to link to it with what I'm not saying... legal loophole... In my own way I'm attempting to reveal things by not revealing things and just speculating around it. Doing what Crowley did. Leaving that connection mostly blank. Speculating instead about how I think all the other villains may tie into that, but not saying much about this villain. Talking about villains here and there, and the Mandarin and Immortus, things I'm mostly unsure of. Some of it could connect in some way to a tiny bit of information that I'm mostly sure is true.
This is kind of what I'm saying. Characters like Tony and Pym would evetually begin to hypothesize it has something to do with quantum mechanics or any number of things, string theory, a bunch of theories. But they'll never understand things from an angle that Strange, Malekith, Loki, Odin or Warlock would as a being who has extraordinary powers. Thor would begin to develop even stronger control over his will, eventually creating wormholes and temporal vortexes. Only as examples of some of his powers that could tie into this. If those show up he'd definitely start increasing his control over the powers the hammer gives him in this movie to defeat Malekith, displaying other powers.
The characters would know there is some connection, but of course none of this would work in the real world so to me it is magic.
However, the tone they set for the characters in Thor, the use of wormholes (in particular Jane studying them), and saying that he comes from a world where they're one and the same leads me to believe they may attempt to at least continue with that theme when they go further into magic.
I really think that magic and science are part of the same spectrum. Part of the same universe/multiverse. Everything part of Yggdrasil. Midgard relies on science, whereas everywhere else is an even mixture of both.
Asgard exists as a physical place, but there's also a very spiritual aspect to it, where it exists simultaneously with the higher dimensions. It has greater access to Valhalla where we do not.
We're closer to Niffleheim aka Hell.
Pym is shocked to find that Hel is real, he can't take Tony down there without the pym particles that biologically enhance Janet and allow her to go there... But Hel and the inner dimensions/lower realms have powers we do not. Luckily, Odin has trapped Surtur and Hela in the invisible sides of the lower realms for all eternity. It's through the invisible, dark matter/ anti-matter side of the universe that Hela would come to possess Jane from the inside. Because even all the dark energies at Yggdrasil's roots are connected to all the other parts of Yggdrasil. There are inner doorways through the world tree. It's through this inner doorway that Hela comes into Jane, although she's blocked from entering the physical world.. Forced out of Jane and moves into Darcy.... Helps Malekith try to raise Surtur through the dimensional doorway.
So Pym starts to understand a little bit about the lower dimensions/realms and the negative zones. But ultimately no one can understand what really gives the magic users all their power, as it comes from the invisible in-between worlds that even Pym can't find. The fourth dimension/realm and beyond. Once you get into the macro, the astronomical. Dimensions only the Asgardians have full access to without cheating and using science to create wormholes. They'd throw out a couple scientific theories or lines, but they're only theories. None of them could naturally do what Strange or Thor could. Even a de-powered Thor had some pre-knowledge of the storm before he tries to get the hammer back in the first movie. Pym and Janet would only understand the micro side of the universe. The lower realms and dimensions by using other sub-atomic particles to open miniature wormholes, or hitch a ride on. That's how midgardians get to Niffleheim, or Hel. It exists so far beneath the surface on the other end of the spectrum as Valhalla. Both are very magical realms, Hel would just exist in a subatomic part of the universe that Pym can also access and learns of. Which changes his perspective completely. Tony was pretty unquestioning already in Avengers. He understood enough from the files to trust that Thor could do what they said he could. Whatever the reason, it didn't matter at the time of Avengers. He refers to him as a demi-god because he's not quite sure yet.
Pym eventually uses science to discover and explore spaces that exist in-between dimensions and out of time, like the Negative Zone or Knowwhere. Junctions between time and dimensions. The Ant Man movie would be set in the 80's and the present. With Pym and Lang. Then both. The multi-verse/time-line manipulation around almost only the Ant-Man movies allows for full expression of all Ant Man's personalities in a short amount of time/movies. The smallest character quickly becomes the biggest and most important character for holding up the universe/multi-verse/ time-line of all the other movies. And stopping the age of Immortus & Ultron.
A couple versions of Kang are doing their best impersonation acts yet. Instead of only pretending to be one "of the pharoahs of old" he went back to the dawn of time already, acquired great power. Needs this timeline a certain way. Ant Man can't be in it... He's seen a lot of this timeline play out and his goal is to defeat Thanos and claim rulership over this universe/timeline for himself. Ultron is the problem in his plan that makes the future unpredictable for him. There are multiple versions of him, some pretending allegiance to Thanos for now. He went back to the dawn of time and is currently pretending to be a be a being who will come to be known as Chthon. But this is not the real Chthon from the dawn of time. None of Immortus's versions are to be trusted.This is an other version of Kang who has quite successfully infiltrated Thanos by altering his appearance into that of a being that predates Thanos. In this movie they may drop the Other's temporary name, but if I'm correct Immortus has been to the dawn of time and has had some words with Surtur as well. When the Other shows up in this movie it seems like all hell and the dawn of time are breaking loose.
Yup .... the word "plant" comes to mind right about now.
(I missed this earlier; it looks like you may have added it later.)
Wow, that sound pretty fearsome for both Jane and Darcy! I guess this would be a case of being careful of what you wish for (if this is how it plays out). Jane is certainly relevant to the story in a way that goes beyond being a love interest (and connected to her work). And Darcy has a larger role.
(As I observed earlier, this is an unusual treatment for one of the good guys, but not unprecedented. And I'm still not 100% thrilled, but I'll run with it here.)
But why would those guys need Jane and Darcy? They're so powerful on their own. And if they do possess J&D, why would they need to do so for more than 10 seconds, long enough to get all the knowledge they need? And while opening a portal is a mean feat for a Midgardian, by your outline the people of Midgard are not all that powerful. So why would it be useful to possess Jane and Darcy?
BTW, Jaimie Alexander has tweeted that she will be shooting another scene for Thor2 later this week. Her description and the accompanying photo suggest it will be a fight scene, though it could just be that she's excited to get back to the set.