TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 3

[IncredibleMink]

because they had them all get sucked into some stupid non-sensical black hole, which some how they know will be created when they smash together phantom engines, which they also believe will cease to exist shortly after rather than continue sucking up the rest of the planet, and which they believe will only suck up the bad guys in the immediate area and not the rest of the city and citizens right below it. guess what, instead of sucking everyone into a stupid magic black hole, actually utilize the technology to simultaneously serve the plot and characters. god forbid we get some competent writing in this movie.

I registered just to put down the haters on the best Superman film I have ever seen.

How was the black hole non-sensical? Like others have said, you need to pay attention more to the movie. In their explanation of the Phantom Zone, they pretty much described it as a black hole.

Oh and hey, Superman shouldnt kill Zod? DID YOU GUYS FORGET SUPERMAN II
[YT]http://youtu.be/jUORL-bvwA0[/YT]
http://youtu.be/jUORL-bvwA0 (link if vid doesnt work)

Also, was I tripping out or did anyone else see Christopher Reeve's face in the scene where Supes is about to fly through that gravity field or whatever they called it at the end?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Also, for those disappointed they didn't touch on Supes regretting what he did to Zod (if the tortured scream afterwards wasn't enough...), if they use Lex in the next one, I guarantee you that they will. Because Superman will have to consciously choose not to kill Lex, a clearly human unpowered being, when it would be so easy for him to do so.

Batman didn't want to kill because he didn't want to become the monsters that he fights. He's afraid of his own anger, and that once he starts, he won't be able to stop. Supes doesn't have that problem because he's not even human....and he certainly has the capability to take down anyone he comes across. But having done it before, he now needs to consciously decide never to do it again.

That doesn't really make me feel any better tbh.

For one thing, not killing Lex is easy because he's human. It's the very fact that Superman refuses to even kill the super powered villains that makes stories like 'What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American way' (Superman vs The Elite) so harrowing. Because he KNOWS that by not doing so, people will get hurt.

But that's a conscious choice he's making, to uphold something more important.

(... and I just realised that last line sound a lot like what Alfred says to Rachel in TDK ).

Superman has the exact same fears as Batman, but on a larger scale. He is afraid that if he starts killing, he will turn into a monster. But if HE turns into a monster, it's even MORE dangerous.

Which is why he feels so strongly about it.

 

[KalMart]

It's SUPERMAN. The last thing on his mind is gladitorial. The ONLY thing on his mind is saving that family, stopping Zod before he gets a chance to kill hundreds more, and killing Zod in the quickest and most humane way he can which is an instant death. And why kill him? These other options people are proposing risk even more of a fight and even more getting killed. Zod wouldn't go down or let himself be taken away without a fight.

If someone had the option of getting shot or their necks snapped over suffocating or drowning - I'm pretty sure the majority would choose the first two because they are the fastest and less painful.

Again, not questioning the decision or the rationale...but it should have found a way to have more weight than just the bullet points presented, which pretty much goes for the whole film. When something like this is technically reasonable, but still feels off, it's because of the execution, if you'll excuse the pun. The decision is sensible, but stoprytelling-wise it could have been delivered better. Maybe still snapping the neck, but still holding onto Zod out of a sense of tragedy and shock, slowly letting his body fall limp.....something.

 

[Sup3rman81]

I registered just to put down the haters on the best Superman film I have ever seen.

How was the black hole non-sensical? Like others have said, you need to pay attention more to the movie. In their explanation of the Phantom Zone, they pretty much described it as a black hole.

Oh and hey, Superman shouldnt kill Zod? DID YOU GUYS FORGET SUPERMAN II
[YT]http://youtu.be/jUORL-bvwA0[/YT]
http://youtu.be/jUORL-bvwA0 (link if vid doesnt work)

Also, was I tripping out or did anyone else see Christopher Reeve's face in the scene where Supes is about to fly through that gravity field or whatever they called it at the end?

I swore I thought it looked like his face. No lie but it has not been mentioned. I am glad u liked the movie

 

[Ultimatehero]

Again, not questioning the decision or the rationale...but it should have found a way to have more weight than just the bullet points presented, which pretty much goes for the whole film. When something like this is technically reasonable, but still feels off, it's because of the execution, if you'll excuse the pun. The decision is sensible, but stoprytelling-wise it could have been delivered better.

It may have felt off to you and a couple others, but it didn't feel off to me and others as well. Not to bring this up, but the majority here gave it a 9 or higher (so I'm pretty sure not that many did feel it was "off" or the majority score would be lower and this is fans - not general audience)... and I don't know how much more weight could be added. Superman held him for a good thirty seconds to a minute struggling not to have to kill him and having the heat rays get to a mere inch away from the family before doing it. He did struggle, but for some reason people think he just up and grabs his neck and kills him - when he really held off. Then looked extremely sad while doing it and looked devastated afterwards. Plus, the movie - more or less - ended five minutes afterward. So, the last thing we see is that death having scarred him for life.

 

[Sup3rman81]

That doesn't really make me feel any better tbh.

For one thing, not killing Lex is easy because he's human. It's the very fact that Superman refuses to even kill the super powered villains that makes stories like 'What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American way' (Superman vs The Elite) so harrowing. Because he KNOWS that by not doing so, people will get hurt.

But that's a conscious choice he's making, to uphold something more important.

(... and I just realised that last line sound a lot like what Alfred says to Rachel in TDK ).

Superman has the exact same fears as Batman, but on a larger scale. He is afraid that if he starts killing, he will turn into a monster. But if HE turns into a monster, it's even MORE dangerous.

Which is why he feels so strongly about it.

He has killed when necessary. Its not like he does it just because he can

 

[Doc Samson]

I'll try to keep this as short and to the point as possible. And while this is the spoiler thread, I'll still put this in tags simply as respect to those who might stumble in here by accident (somehow but it happens)

Spoiler

Things I loved
-The Pacing:

Some have an issue with it, I personally liked how it was non-linear and somewhat reminiscent of Batman Begins. I hate the tedious, and at this point, cliche' & obligatory origin superhero film. There was a decent amount of action and visual spectacle to make what could've been a boring slog through Clark's history yet again into something more tangibly gripping.

-The Tone:

Once again, some took issue with something I didn't feel was anywhere near as bad as it was made out to be. Yes, it's certainly more serious and IMO that's the right approach, but there were also a lot of jokes that made the audience laugh out loud. Just a few off the top of my head were:

--How the bar bully tried to push Clark and afterwards, the mangled way he finds his truck
--How Superman breaks his cuffs and approaches the tough talking military suit during his "interrogation."
--The expression on Lois' face as the blogger spills the beans and the subsequent fast arrival of the government.
--Lois' d*** measuring opening scene, her "welcome to the Planet" line to Clark, and just about any time Christopher Meloni showed up with one of his quirky, weird expressions.
--Hell, even how Jor-el was guiding Lois through the ship, whether it was meant for laughs or not (and I think it was), I & the crowd found funny

I also think, at least for people that enjoy action, that the spectacle of the action is just as much a part of the fun as a corny one-liner.

--The Action:

And damn if it isn't the most over the top action I've ever seen in a superhero flick. But I'm also a product of the 80's macho films and have a certain affinity to them. I can certainly see how the transition from a pretty solid and somewhat grounded first half to the bombastic fight stuff can be jarring. It was jarring for me and I loved it. But when MoS goes there, it certainly goes there!

--The Cast:

I thought everyone was pretty good, Cavill & Costner being the obvious standouts. Henry is Superman for a new generation (hopefully) and Kevin brings that fatherly quality of his with ease, as he's done plenty of times before. Shannon I thought chewed the scenery a bit at points, but overall, I liked him and while Crowe's Jor-el might be in the film a bit more than some are bargaining for, I wasn't bothered by him and enjoyed the prologue quite a bit. Amy Adams was the first female love interest in quite awhile that didn't irritate the hell outta me. And while I didn't think she and Cavill had any particular chemistry, I like the feisty and involved Lois much more than the damsel in distress we always get in superhero flicks.

Things I didn't Like:

-Superman's involvement in such destruction:

Now granted, it's also the best part of the film for me, the wanton destruction and epic scale power on display. But it did bother me somewhat that Superman didn't try harder to really take the fight away from innocent bystanders at all. All types of s*** gets blown up and not once did Clark really stop to assess what was going on and try to either protect more people or move the fight to a more safe location.

-His "secret" identity:

I actually like that Lois knows who he is, it makes sense and alleviates one of those cheesy elements of their relationship. That being said, after he's all over the news and basically the whole world sees him, I struggle to believe just a pair of glasses can hide him at the Daily Planet from everyone but Lois. Even though it would've been an extreme change, I would've liked to see this version of Clark Kent actually have to wear a true disguise to blend in with the public. You can't have Lois figure out who he is with relative ease but then expect us to believe nobody else could.

-Superman Killing:

And this goes back somewhat to the utter destruction he leaves in his wake too. I know Zod kind of puts him in a bind, but we just saw almost 30 minutes of Superman kicking all sorts of ass, you can't tell me he couldn't simply lift Zod up and fly him away from the people he was trying to flame broil. Or how about use that ice breath of his that was strangely absent this movie, or use his own heat vision to crumble the floor around them so they would drop a level away from those people, or any number of things he could've done. It was the most out of character thing for him to do and it did bother the hell out of me.

That's really about it for me, I give this an 8/10 for now after just the first viewing and it could certainly move up. I put it around the same class of BB (which IMO is the weakest of the trilogy) & Spiderman 1 as a solid foundation to hopefully build upon. Extreme, almost comical action (which is exactly how it should be, a comic come to life) solid performances, enough nuance and story to not be one dimensional and a visual spectacle of massive proportions.

 

[KalMart]

So anyway...now that Superman has all those Kryptonian midichlorians or whatever in him....are they going to use'em to make a Powergirl...or did that doctor who died the only one who could?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

He has killed when necessary. Its not like he does it just because he can

Yup... in stories I don't like.

 

[Sharkboy]

I NOTICED THAT TOO!

Well us Batman forum vets tend to be on the sharper side.

Also, for those disappointed they didn't touch on Supes regretting what he did to Zod (if the tortured scream afterwards wasn't enough...), if they use Lex in the next one, I guarantee you that they will. Because Superman will have to consciously choose not to kill Lex, a clearly human unpowered being, when it would be so easy for him to do so.

Batman didn't want to kill because he didn't want to become the monsters that he fights. He's afraid of his own anger, and that once he starts, he won't be able to stop. Supes doesn't have that problem because he's not even human....and he certainly has the capability to take down anyone he comes across. But having done it before, he now needs to consciously decide never to do it again.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Batman's choice to not kill is almost a handicap, which is mostly shown with the joker, all it would take is for Batman to kill him in a fight and his life would be so much easier, but it's less of general moral standard (he's not telling the cops to stop using guns) it's a personal thing, he chooses not to kill because he's afraid that the line between him and his villains really is that damn thin.

Superman on the other hand doesn't have that tortured soul, he's not a killer at all but when it comes to the near impossible descion between someone like zod, brainiac or lex vs a family of innocents...he will make the choice, and it's not like he made the choice easily...or he just shrugged it off. I'm not entirely sure what people want? Him just sitting down and crying for the rest of the film?

So wait, you're done with superhero/comic book movies?

I'm sure it wasn't literal.

 

[IncredibleMink]

Again, not questioning the decision or the rationale...but it should have found a way to have more weight than just the bullet points presented, which pretty much goes for the whole film. When something like this is technically reasonable, but still feels off, it's because of the execution, if you'll excuse the pun. The decision is sensible, but stoprytelling-wise it could have been delivered better. Maybe still snapping the neck, but still holding onto Zod out of a sense of tragedy and shock, slowly letting his body fall limp.....something.

I gotta agree with this point though...they pretty much decimated all of Metropolis but NOW Supes gets emotional and then kills Zod. I think the large scale of the movie took away some of it's heart.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Yup... in stories I don't like.

So it's some people's Superman - just not yours - but it is in the comics and one of most beloved Superman stories -- Doomsday -- so, it's just not yours.

 

[KalMart]

It may have felt off to you and a couple others, but it didn't feel off to me and others as well. Not to bring this up, but the majority here gave it a 9 or higher (so I'm pretty sure not that many did feel it was "off" or the majority score would be lower and this is fans - not general audience)... and I don't know how much more weight could be added.

Which is probably why you're not seeing it like I and others are. Which is fine. I gave the movie a 7/10, which is still a bit generous but I liked Cavill.

Superman held him for a good thirty seconds to a minute struggling not to have to kill him and having the heat rays get to a mere inch away from the family before doing it. He did struggle, but for some reason people think he just up and grabs his neck and kills him - when he really held off. Then looked extremely sad while doing it and looked devastated afterwards. Plus, the movie - more or less - ended five minutes afterward. So, the last thing we see is that death having scarred him for life.

Again, it just didn't play well. I general, things happened in this film, but they didn't resonate. Good idea but not so good execution and storytelling.

 

[J.Howlett]

I feel you on that, I'm a huge sucker for father/son movies. (Nemo gets me every damn time...so does Big Fish) it also helps that it's fathers day over here this weekend. So it just hit the spot perfectly.

I could talk forever about the relationship between Clark and both his fathers in this film, to me that should be the core of every Superman origin movie I feel people are missing out on that in order to complain about the neck snapping.

Bingo. Completely feel you.

 

[Anita18]

That doesn't really make me feel any better tbh.

For one thing, not killing Lex is easy because he's human. It's the very fact that Superman refuses to even kill the super powered villains that makes stories like 'What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American way' (Superman vs The Elite) so harrowing. Because he KNOWS that by not doing so, people will get hurt.

But that's a conscious choice he's making, to uphold something more important.

(... and I just realised that last line sound a lot like what Alfred says to Rachel in TDK ).

Superman has the exact same fears as Batman, but on a larger scale. He is afraid that if he starts killing, he will turn into a monster. But if HE turns into a monster, it's even MORE dangerous.

Which is why he feels so strongly about it.

I dunno, I feel differently about it between Supes and Bats. For Bats, the decision not to murder is so conscious because he's already a creature of darkness. He skirts that line all the time, staring into that abyss. He uses his anger for good, not for evil, but anger is not a sustainable fuel for heroism for most. To fall in would be SO easy, and that's why he has such a hard line against it. It's the ONLY thing that separates him from the monsters he fights.

(But again, I feel if he were faced with someone like Zod, he would still do it.)

Superman is different because he doesn't look into the abyss so frequently. He knows where he stands. And in certain circumstances, that might involve killing to prevent future deaths, if there are no other good options. There were no good options with Zod left - all the Kryptonian ships were gone, and I guess he "could" have taken Zod out into space or some crazy thing that he'd have no idea would work or not.

In the US, it is legal to kill someone to prevent the imminent death of someone else. I think most of us who consider ourselves otherwise good people would make the decision to do so in such circumstances. Most of us would regret having to do it, but we would still do it. You don't have to be a terrible person to do such a thing, and I don't think Superman has to be "better" than us in such a way to prove he's still a good person.

 

[Migu-EL]

I loved the film, it wasn't perfect, but it was a very entertaining movie and in my eyes the best Superman film to date.

 

[J.Howlett]

I wondered why WB didn't move this film to it's money spot in July. After witnessing it, they knew what they had. Father's Day weekend was the absolute best spot.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

So it's some people's Superman - just not yours - but it is in the comics and one of most beloved Superman stories -- Doomsday -- so, it's just not yours.

Sure, i'm in no way saying that the version of Superman that I love and was so desperately hoping to see on film is the ONLY version.

Heck, they've already had Superman kill Zod on screen once. Which I also hated btw.

All i've talked about is how much it broke 'MY' heart, and I think they did it in a way that was really really respectful to all the fans like myself who were very attached to that side of the character.

And it makes me really sad on a human level, because one of the reasons I love Supes no kill rule and how he feels about it, is because of the way it inspires me.

And I know that a bunch of younger fans are gonna see this film and be like 'OH MAN, it was so COOL and BADASS when Superman snapped Zod's neck', which makes me as sad as it made Superman in the scene in Superman vs The Elite where he talks about overhearing a kid say he wanted to be a Superhero cause he thought it'd be fun to kill.

 

[KalMart]

I gotta agree with this point though...they pretty much decimated all of Metropolis but NOW Supes gets emotional and then kills Zod. I think the large scale of the movie took away some of it's heart.

Lots of the heart i this movie felt rather diluted by the feeling of 'on to the next thing'. I think TDKR suffered for the same thing...it makes the film feel peculiarly too long but then too short at the same time.

I described it before feeling like a 2-episode TV premiere/pilot, but you missed the first episode.

 

[Ultimatehero]

There were no good options with Zod left - all the Kryptonian ships were gone, and I guess he "could" have taken Zod out into space or some crazy thing that he'd have no idea would work or not.

Exactly and they do go into space - space didn't stop Zod. Zod was a general and bred to be one, he would continue fighting to the death. As long as he was alive, he was going to kill more and more people.

Also despite how people are saying Superman was an excellent fighter against the other krytponians. Remember the part atop the roof under construction where Zod warned Superman that he's been at this longer than he has and is thus a better fighter? Superman had clearly met his match and close-to equal. This wasn't a guy he could just push around. He was, for all intents and purposes, Doomsday.

 

[Ultimatehero]

All i've talked about is how much it broke 'MY' heart, and I think they did it in a way that was really really respectful to all the fans like myself who were very attached to that side of the character.

And it makes me really sad on a human level, because one of the reasons I love Supes no kill rule and how he feels about it, is because of the way it inspires me.

And that is why it worked. They didn't approach it in "cool, he kills!" It was the FIRST film I've ever seen where they really dealt with the pain and anguish that goes into that. It was a devastating scene to watch because it showed how much killing someone can take out of someone. It devastated him and the entire audience felt that devastation with him. It was the hardest thing he could have done, and it took a good minute for him to work up the courage to do it because of how hard it would be on him. I'm telling you cops and soldiers who have had to kill in the line of combat to save a life when it went against their moral code probably and most likely would see that scene as being very accurate.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I dunno, I feel differently about it between Supes and Bats. For Bats, the decision not to murder is so conscious because he's already a creature of darkness. He skirts that line all the time, staring into that abyss. He uses his anger for good, not for evil, but anger is not a sustainable fuel for heroism for most. To fall in would be SO easy, and that's why he has such a hard line against it. It's the ONLY thing that separates him from the monsters he fights.

(But again, I feel if he were faced with someone like Zod, he would still do it.)

Superman is different because he doesn't look into the abyss so frequently. He knows where he stands. And in certain circumstances, that might involve killing to prevent future deaths, if there are no other good options. There were no good options with Zod left - all the Kryptonian ships were gone, and I guess he "could" have taken Zod out into space or some crazy thing that he'd have no idea would work or not.

Well yeah, they worked the plot so it left him with no choices.

But as i've always said, I just didn't think they should do that. Why write the plot in that way? They completely intentionally worked the plot so that Superman would have to kill, and that's what I take issue with. Because I don't get why they'd WANT to do that. Like why they'd be sitting in a room going 'Right, so we really wanna have Superman snap a guys neck by the end of this film, let's talk about how we get there.'

Superheroes, and in particular Superman, have stories I love because of the way they inspire me and the way they make me feel better about the world. Even ones as dark as TDK.

That was the kind of ending that just made me feel nothing of the sort.

 

[JangoNate]

And that is why it worked. They didn't approach it in "cool, he kills!" It was the FIRST film I've ever seen where they really dealt with the pain and anguish that goes into that. It was a devastating scene to watch because it showed how much killing someone can take out of someone. It devastated him and the entire audience felt that devastation with him.

Very emotional sequence that got me. Couldn't help but think of Reeves cry after losing Lois in S:TM. Both deal with the loss of life and both portray a Superman who's crushed when it happens, even when it is the villain who deserves it.

 

[Anita18]

Sure, i'm in no way saying that the version of Superman that I love and was so desperately hoping to see on film is the ONLY version.

Heck, they've already had Superman kill Zod on screen once. Which I also hated btw.

All i've talked about is how much it broke 'MY' heart, and I think they did it in a way that was really really respectful to all the fans like myself who were very attached to that side of the character.

And it makes me really sad on a human level, because one of the reasons I love Supes no kill rule and how he feels about it, is because of the way it inspires me.

And I know that a bunch of younger fans are gonna see this film and be like 'OH MAN, it was so COOL and BADASS when Superman snapped Zod's neck', which makes me as sad as it made Superman in the scene in Superman vs The Elite where he talks about overhearing a kid say he wanted to be a Superhero cause he thought it'd be fun to kill.

And if they missed the next 20 seconds when he stands there utterly devastated and screams out in emotional pain then has to get hugged by Lois.....I wouldn't worry about them, they don't have the brain cells to process much.

 

[Tony Stark]

Well yeah, they worked the plot so it left him with no choices.

But as i've always said, I just didn't think they should do that. Why write the plot in that way? They completely intentionally worked the plot so that Superman would have to kill, and that's what I take issue with. Because I don't get why they'd WANT to do that. Like why they'd be sitting in a room going 'Right, so we really wanna have Superman snap a guys neck by the end of this film, let's talk about how we get there.'

Superheroes, and in particular Superman, have stories I love because of the way they inspire me and the way they make me feel better about the world. Even ones as dark as TDK.

That was the kind of ending that just made me feel nothing of the sort.

Thank you. I've been saying the same thing. That's why I put the blame on Goyer. They wanted Superman to kill because they thought it would be "awesome", and I think this is probably the single most controversial thing in the film, especially the way it's done.