The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[gwynplaine]

I too would be very surprised to see the "twist" of a permawhite Joker, but if Nolan could pull it off in an interesting way it would be a chilling finale. But it's very unlikely. The reason for this, in my opinion (and this a is a wild guess of course!) is that he was excited by casting Ledger but also well aware that he didn't match the archetypal Joker look, the long face, high cheekbones etc etc. So he thought, well, let's ditch those elements entirely and go with something that works for Ledger. Once he made that decision, and started exploring the punk Clockwork Orange route, the whole permawhite thing probably became less and less relevant. This makes sense in a casting context, whether you agree with it or not (and I never have, I wanted a chalk-white Ryan Gosling or Paul Bettany - but that's not to say I'm not excited by Ledger's portrayal).

I recommend the Da Vinci codet:.

 

[nickyg641]

I too would be very surprised to see the "twist" of a permawhite Joker, but if Nolan could pull it off in an interesting way it would be a chilling finale. But it's very unlikely. The reason for this, in my opinion (and this a is a wild guess of course!) is that he was excited by casting Ledger but also well aware that he didn't match the archetypal Joker look, the long face, high cheekbones etc etc. So he thought, well, let's ditch those elements entirely and go with something that works for Ledger. Once he made that decision, and started exploring the punk Clockwork Orange route, the whole permawhite thing probably became less and less relevant. This makes sense in a casting context, whether you agree with it or not (and I never have, I wanted a chalk-white Ryan Gosling or Paul Bettany - but that's not to say I'm not excited by Ledger's portrayal).

That actually makes sense.

 

[Infinity9999x]

That actually makes sense.

I agree, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's at least part of the reason Nolan went with the non perma-white route.

I've been saying all along in the skin arguments that I don't believe Nolan changed the Joker's skin simply because it wasn't "realistic" enough. It made more sense to me that he simply wanted to go with makeup because he preferred it visually and it fit more with his idea of the character. I can't believe that Nolan's vision is limited enough to think that perma-white is simply too "out there" for his Batman movie. He could have easily came up with a "realistic" explanation for it had he wanted to.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

hi this is my first post on these boards and i just gotta say that this film is gonna be the greatest comic book adaptation in history! but back to the point. i respect everyones views on whether they want a bleached joker or a joker who wears make up. my opinion is that i find it much more disturbing and insane that a man who is obviously disfigured would deliberatly highlight his horrible face with the red lipstick and what not. i feel it shows that this joker has truly in the words of Captain Willard "split from the whole ****ing programme".

 

[Nepenthes]

I think it's interesting to see how many noobs are attracted to the make-up idea. I say noobs reffering to people who came to the boards or to Dark Knight hype after the Joker was revealed, or noobs being people who are NOT rabid bat-fans or general geeks or whatever. It shows that the new approach has teeth, it's working if normal people are generally curious and intrigued, and most importantly, are able to see the new angle it creates very readily.

Also noobs come on and say "oh the make-up is cool it's more scary", and as older fans it's easy to think back "oh but you don't understand the Joker", but c'mon, how much do they really need to know? You don't get any prizes for being an elitist geek, this is a Joker for a different audience, the Joker that's an icon because of the 60's show, Jack Nicholson and TAS, not because of any appearances in 20 year old comics. It's a bit of a wank to keep viewing these movies solely from a fans perspective

this joker has truly in the words of Captain Willard "split from the whole ****ing programme".

ha ha ha

 

[Closerframe]

I think it's interesting to see how many noobs are attracted to the make-up idea. I say noobs reffering to people who came to the boards or to Dark Knight hype after the Joker was revealed, or noobs as people who are NOT rabid bat-fans or general geeks or whatever. It shows that the new approach has teeth, it's working if normal people are generally curious and intrigued, and most importantly, are able to see the new angle it creates very readily.

Noobs come on and say "oh the make-up is cool it's more scay" and as older fans it's easy to think back "oh but you don't understand the Joker" but c'mon, how much do they really need to know? You don't get any prizes for being an eltists geek, this is a Joker for a different audience, the Joker that's an icon because of the 60's show, Jack Nicholson and TAS, not because of any appearances in 20 year old comics. It's a bit of a wank to keep viewing these movies solely from a fans perspective

.

I'm a not a noob, I'm a huge Batman fan and I love the idea for make-up wearing Joker. It brings something new to the Joker, I understand bleached Joker is one of the most important elements of the character. But I believe in Nolan's decision, I don't think he decided for his Joker to wear make-up because he didn't want it to be to similar to Burton's Joker but he wanted to make a new Joker that fit his vision and ideas for the character. That's like getting mad at Nolan for not making Scarecrow wear his whole outfit instead of a business suit. But it worked so well in the film, and I have a feeling after the movie is released Nolan's make-up wearing Joker will blend into new comic book inspirations and possibly future movies.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i may be a "noob" (i hate that word) compared to most others on here but thats not to say i have no clue about the history of the joker in the comics. i understand that he had bleached skin and green hair and all that but what im saying is that does anyone. even the most stubborn permawhite fans honestly think that it would do the character justice if he was like that in this film universe? i highly doubt it. you have to give some freedom to the creators of the film to make a "adaptation" of the joker. like i said before IMO this joker is a fooking badass and could be copied by any physco in the real world which makes it more horrifying.

 

[Nepenthes]

^ yeah just to clarify I didn't mean anything derogatory by noob. I use it as a shorthand for the diverse range of people who simply don't care or know about the Joker in detail like alot of the posters here might. They can be aware that he was different before but it's just not a huge issue for them when films deviate from comics. Noob is a silly term when people use it to belittle new posters and as everyone knows I never like to say anything silly.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea no worries man i know what you mean. i understand what your saying.

 

[Dr. MIX]

I suppose the non perma white Joker fits with Nolan`s idea of an anarchic punk who likes to cause mayhem, it doesn`t take away from the film that he isn`t exactly like his comic counterpart, but it would have been nice to have his skin bleached in some way or another without explaning why. Since it was already done in Batman 89, it would seem sort of redundant to have that shown once more. I understand that Nolan wanted to stray as far away as possible as Nicholson`s joker and it makes sense to reinvent the joker in a fresh new way, otherwise people will inevitably compare the two actors if they play the role in the same manner.

 

[kid bosco]

I wonder how many general moviegoers who are going to see this are expecting a Joker backstory in the film?

 

[The Joker]

I wonder how many general moviegoers who are going to see this are expecting a Joker backstory in the film?

Most people would expect a new main character to have some kind of backstory. I imagine only us geeks who have been keeping up with every detail in the making of this movie will know he wont be getting one.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i think the joker not having a origin story adds mystery to the character. people will be thinking where the **** did this freak come from!?!? he may not get a origin story as such, but i feel there will be little details in dialogue alluding to how he came to be the way he is, we've already had a little innuendo in the prologue "whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you.......stranger"

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i think the joker not having a origin story adds mystery to the character. people will be thinking where the **** did this freak come from!?!? he may not get a origin story as such, but i feel there will be little details in dialogue alluding to how he came to be the way he is, we've already had a little innuendo in the prologue "whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you.......stranger"

 

[kid bosco]

i think the joker not having a origin story adds mystery to the character. people will be thinking where the **** did this freak come from!?!? he may not get a origin story as such, but i feel there will be little details in dialogue alluding to how he came to be the way he is, we've already had a little innuendo in the prologue "whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you.......stranger"

I think Joker was unstable before his scarring....
Notice he saus "strangER".....Alluding to the possibility that he was already strange before whatever it was that happened to him.....
Now, he's stranger.

 

[ronny]

The Joker only had an origin story ten years after his first appearance.
It can't be that important.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

ye he proberbly was some messed up armed robber who just couldn't help killing hostages, sorta like mr blonde in resevoir dogs. and then maybe his fellow mobsters got sick n tired of his reckless ways and turning jobs into bloodbaths so they stiched him up big time and left him for dead. he then comes back into the fold and steals all their money and holds it to ransom so they would do him a favour and hunt batman down. i think thats a very plausible origin story for the joker in nolans universe.

 

[Nepenthes]

^ good call on the Mr. Blonde angle, it makes sense other crooks wouldn't want such a wild card in their midsts and he's a good film example. You can also tie Mr Blonde easily into the type of character we saw in Lovers and Madmen. If you haven't read it it shows 'Jack' before the accident as an extremely competent gunfighter and thief whose becoming bored with crime and starting to seek extreme kicks on the job

 

[Dr. MIX]

Like Nolan said, if a villain is given a back story, he becomes less threatening as we now sympathize with the character. This is what happened with Hannibal Rising, keeping a villainous character a mystery is oftentimes better in order to add mystery, the less we know, the more interested we will be to find out more.

 

[TheBatman072]

Like Nolan said, if a villain is given a back story, he becomes less threatening as we now sympathize with the character. This is what happened with Hannibal Rising, keeping a villainous character a mystery is oftentimes better in order to add mystery, the less we know, the more interested we will be to find out more.

We see that with Scarecrow and Ra's. There were hints, clues, etc. But there was never anything concrete. Which is the best way to go.

 

[nickyg641]

i may be a "noob" (i hate that word) compared to most others on here but thats not to say i have no clue about the history of the joker in the comics. i understand that he had bleached skin and green hair and all that but what im saying is that does anyone. even the most stubborn permawhite fans honestly think that it would do the character justice if he was like that in this film universe? i highly doubt it. you have to give some freedom to the creators of the film to make a "adaptation" of the joker. like i said before IMO this joker is a fooking badass and could be copied by any physco in the real world which makes it more horrifying.

Are you saying that it wouldn't? I'm sorry, I'm probably getting you wrong here, but I just want to voice this: I understand why Nolan switched it, and I can respect it; but nothing puzzles me nor miffs me more than when people insinuiate that this was simply the only way to portray the Joker. I sympathise for those on the makeup side who had to put up with us permawhite supremecists a few months ago--my heart weeps for you.

 

[kid bosco]

I know ppl think the Mob may have been responsible for the creation of the Joker in some way, especailly with the whole Chelsea grin......
BUT if that were the case, wouldn't they know who he was?

"Eh Ton, 'member Jack? He's back from the dead. Guess we didn't kill him after all. And get dis, now he wears clown make-up, haha!"

??

 

[FinchersGhost]

I think it's interesting to see how many noobs are attracted to the make-up idea. I say noobs reffering to people who came to the boards or to Dark Knight hype after the Joker was revealed, or noobs being people who are NOT rabid bat-fans or general geeks or whatever. It shows that the new approach has teeth, it's working if normal people are generally curious and intrigued, and most importantly, are able to see the new angle it creates very readily.

Also noobs come on and say "oh the make-up is cool it's more scary", and as older fans it's easy to think back "oh but you don't understand the Joker", but c'mon, how much do they really need to know? You don't get any prizes for being an elitist geek, this is a Joker for a different audience, the Joker that's an icon because of the 60's show, Jack Nicholson and TAS, not because of any appearances in 20 year old comics. It's a bit of a wank to keep viewing these movies solely from a fans perspective




ha ha ha

The snobbery is insufferable. Well said, Nepenthes.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Like Nolan said, if a villain is given a back story, he becomes less threatening as we now sympathize with the character. This is what happened with Hannibal Rising, keeping a villainous character a mystery is oftentimes better in order to add mystery, the less we know, the more interested we will be to find out more.

i do agree with what your saying there. but i think that only applies if the character is giving a back story that we can sympathize with. but i think that if you gave the protanganist a back story of violence and evil and no untimely accident which made them the way they are, i feel it would make them more threatening. You could compare it to freddy kruger aswell, once you find out his origin it deffinatly makes him more menacing IMO

 

[Motown Marvel]

the non-permawhite thing is gonna be a flaw in the film thats just always gonna bug me. true, i havent seen the film yet, but i find it very hard to believe there will be anything to justify that highly unnecessary decision.