The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[Franky4Fingers]

Thats fine but I find his issues warranting this film being forgettable before the movies release to be non too convincing as well.

 

[Saint]

He did not say the film would be forgettable: he said the Joker's physical appearance would be forgettable.

 

[Franky4Fingers]

Even if I have been mistaken he still doesnt hint that this film will be left in much of a positive light. Everyone can pretty much agree that Heath's Joker will be the main attraction for this movie. This was most likely the case well before he died and to say his interpretation and the movie itself will be remembered only for his untimely death is something I just can't agree with.

 

[Solidus]

Wow been a long time since I've been in here. Same stuff different day .

And the Joker's physical appearance will be forgettable? Possibly. But maybe not. TDK could usher a new era of look for the Joker. That and if Heath's performance is as epic as it seems to be turning out to be, such an amazing performance will enhance the love for the physical appearance as well. Maybe not by some around here but with that this could usher the Joker in a new look for a new era. Just a thought. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but with the hype and the popularity of the movie already gaining momentum, this could usher a new look for the Joker. Who knows?

But other then that it seems everyone is happy and healthy in this thread lol.

 

[Saint]

Even if I have been mistaken he still doesnt hint that this film will be left in much of a positive light. Everyone can pretty much agree that Heath's Joker will be the main attraction for this movie. This was most likely the case well before he died and to say his interpretation and the movie itself will be remembered only for his untimely death is something I just can't agree with.

That's not my concern, and not what I was responding to. You said you took issue with his reasons for the film's forgetability; Regwec provided no argument for the film's forgetability and no reasons for such a thing, which is why I corrected you when you suggested that the reasons he didn't provide for an argument he never made were not convincing.

 

[guitarkhero311]

Correct; but that is not necessarily the situation in this case. Everything about degrees, and there is a degree where "inspiration" becomes derivation. I don't agree with Regwec that this line has been reached in TDK, but your counterarguments aren't particularly convincing.

Well the degree statement is true. But Anthony Hopkins modeled his voice for Hannibal after HAL 9000. Hugo Weaving modeled his voice after a computer for Agent Smith, with pauses and elongated syllables to make it sound like the information is processing. I don't see how modeling the Joker's look after Iggy or Vicious, or modeling his sadistic nature to those of Kakihara and Alex DeLarge is derrivative. All good actors have inspiration, the good ones just don't become the same character of their inspiration.

 

[Franky4Fingers]

Maybe I just misunderstood then. I get the feeling bc he doesn't like this new Joker look (which is fine many don't, and I wasn't for the make'up thing right away either) he tries to find ways to understate the overall quality of the film.

 

[BatSpider]

 

[Saint]

Well the degree statement is true. But Anthony Hopkins modeled his voice after HAL 9000. Hugo Weaving modeled his voice after a computer, with pauses and elongated syllables to make it sound like the information is processing. I don't see how modeling the Joker's look after Iggy or Vicious, or modeling his sadistic nature to those of Kakihara and Alex DeLarge is derrivative.

You'll have to ask Regwec. You said, though, that the "degree" statement is true, which means you should understand that Hugo Weaving imagining an approximation of electronic "thought" and modelling his voice accordingly is not the same as looking at The Crow, Ichi the Killer, or Clockwork Orange, and saying "The Joker should look like that" (if that is what happened).

All good actors have inspiration, the good ones just don't become the same character of their inspiration.

We (which is to say those of us involved in the conversation that began with Regwec's comments) are not discussing the actor or the performance--we are discussing the appearance.

 

[nickyg641]

Wow been a long time since I've been in here. Same stuff different day .

And the Joker's physical appearance will be forgettable? Possibly. But maybe not. TDK could usher a new era of look for the Joker. That and if Heath's performance is as epic as it seems to be turning out to be, such an amazing performance will enhance the love for the physical appearance as well. Maybe not by some around here but with that this could usher the Joker in a new look for a new era. Just a thought. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but with the hype and the popularity of the movie already gaining momentum, this could usher a new look for the Joker. Who knows?

But other then that it seems everyone is happy and healthy in this thread lol.

I would actually quite like to see a look akin to TDK Joker's in the comics. Something of a marriage of the traditional image and the movie's look. It would be interesting if the Joker of the comics were permawhite, and enhanced his own look with makeup. Or if they created a more natural-looking version of TDK's Joker, with his face being wrinkled and there being a dark area around his eyes like the makeup. I would love to see a drawing of that.

 

[guitarkhero311]

You'll have to ask Regwec. You said, though, that the "degree" statement is true, which means you should understand that Hugo Weaving imagining an approximation of electronic "thought" and modelling his voice accordingly is not the same as looking at The Crow, Ichi the Killer, or Clockwork Orange, and saying "The Joker should look like that" (if that is what happened).


We (which is to say those of us involved in the conversation that began with Regwec's comments) are not discussing the actor or the performance--we are discussing the appearance.

Brandon Lee was not the first person to wear make up, nor was Kakihara the first to sport a Glasgow smile. I understand what you guys are saying about the look and I get it(even though I think the look is killer) but whats wrong with modeling the look of the the Joker with punk rock and purple, he still rocks the purple and green get up, and look at those clown shoes. I can say that he looks like the Joker all day, and some will disagree, but to say he doesn't look like the Joker, all will disagree.

 

[Saint]

Brandon Lee was not the first person to wear make up, nor was Kakihara the first to sport a Glasgow smile.

Naturally--but then, that's not the point.

I understand what you guys are saying about the look

I'm not saying anything about the look.

 

[Solidus]

I would actually quite like to see a look akin to TDK Joker's in the comics. Something of a marriage of the traditional image and the movie's look. It would be interesting if the Joker of the comics were permawhite, and enhanced his own look with makeup. Or if they created a more natural-looking version of TDK's Joker, with his face being wrinkled and there being a dark area around his eyes like the makeup. I would love to see a drawing of that.

If I'm not mistaken, whats his face, ..............................................grrr drawing a blank lol. Who drew those pictures in 2002, that look like Heath almost today is doing a graphic novel with that approach. Permawhite, yet looks like the Joker from TDK. Even though...man I lost his name lol, drew it in 2002.

 

[Crook]

If I'm not mistaken, whats his face, ..............................................grrr drawing a blank lol. Who drew those pictures in 2002, that look like Heath almost today is doing a graphic novel with that approach. Permawhite, yet looks like the Joker from TDK. Even though...man I lost his name lol, drew it in 2002.

Lee Bermejo?

 

[nickyg641]

If I'm not mistaken, whats his face, ..............................................grrr drawing a blank lol. Who drew those pictures in 2002, that look like Heath almost today is doing a graphic novel with that approach. Permawhite, yet looks like the Joker from TDK. Even though...man I lost his name lol, drew it in 2002.

Oh, Bermejo? I'm a fan of some of his designs, others not. I despise the one that he did for BoF, this one. Although I actually like the lines through the eyes, mimicking clown makeup.

And I think this looks quite promising, although I don't like the nicks and cuts about his chin. Makes him look like he's had a shaving accident.

 

[Crook]

Ironically, he draws one of the finest Jokers I've seen....sans the mouth scars.

 

[guitarkhero311]

You'll have to ask Regwec. You said, though, that the "degree" statement is true, which means you should understand that Hugo Weaving imagining an approximation of electronic "thought" and modelling his voice accordingly is not the same as looking at The Crow, Ichi the Killer, or Clockwork Orange, and saying "The Joker should look like that" (if that is what happened).


We (which is to say those of us involved in the conversation that began with Regwec's comments) are not discussing the actor or the performance--we are discussing the appearance.

Thats the look.

 

[guitarkhero311]

Naturally--but then, that's not the point.

So what is the point. Regwec said that he thinks Heath's Joker will be derrivative, because of his inspirations for the character, I disagree, many actors have done it in the past and have had great performances, as I am sure Heath will give us. I am saying is the look is unforgettable to me and is no where near derrivative. He is not a clone of Kakihara or the Crow, he just takes certain aspects of them and adapts it to the look of the character.

 

[nickyg641]

Ironically, he draws one of the finest Jokers I've seen....sans the mouth scars.

I agree, that is a good Joker, in the first one, sans the mouth scars. And, in the second, I like the scars more, and the idea that he has scars and permawhite actually makes him more interesting, in my opinion. I would like to see how his idea translates to a simple, more cartoony style of drawing.

 

[Solidus]

Lee Bermejo?

Oh, Bermejo? I'm a fan of some of his designs, others not. I despise the one that he did for BoF, this one. Although I actually like the lines through the eyes, mimicking clown makeup.

And I think this looks quite promising, although I don't like the nicks and cuts about his chin. Makes him look like he's had a shaving accident.

Yea thats him. I hated the BOF one. I liked the one with him holding the dead guy at the dinner table. And some of the new ones of that upcoming novel.

Thanks dudes. I dont' know why his name was slipping me.

 

[guitarkhero311]

Ironically, he draws one of the finest Jokers I've seen....sans the mouth scars.

it is true......WAIT!!!! Did I just agree with Crook????

 

[Solidus]

I agree, that is a good Joker, in the first one, sans the mouth scars. And, in the second, I like the scars more, and the idea that he has scars and permawhite actually makes him more interesting, in my opinion. I would like to see how his idea translates to a simply, more cartoony style of drawing.

I agree I'm excited for that novel. It is coming out in October is it not?

 

[nickyg641]

I agree I'm excited for that novel. It is coming out in October is it not?

The 22nd of October, yeah.

 

[Saint]

So what is the point.

I said "that isn't the point" in response to your comment that The Crow wasn't the first to use facepaint, because "who's first" isn't relevant. Your comment was not relevant. The relevant issue is the application of these "inspirations" and whether they are A) used to create a superior and ultimately original product, or B) stitched together in the absence of an original idea, which would be derivative. Regwec apparently believes the situation with Joker's appearance is the latter.

Regwec said that he thinks Heath's Joker will be derrivative, because of his inspirations for the character, I disagree, many actors have done it in the past and have had great performances,

Which is meaningless: that other actors successfully modelled portions of their roles from previous work without falling victim to derivation does not mean that another attempt to do the same, such as TDK's, will be successful. Do you understand? If you think TDK's Joker is not derivative, great, you are welcome to explain why. But "Lots of other roles had inspiration without being derivative" is not an argument for your case. One could just as easily say "Lot's of other roles failed because they were derivative," and that would be equally meaningless, because neither statement makes any arguments as to why this role will fail or succeed. In order to make such an argument, the merits of this role must be discussed.

Also, "derivative" has only one "R." I'm not trying to be a jerk; reading it over and over just irks me.

Thats the look.

I was responding to your comment about that "All good actors have inspiration." That statement has nothing to do with the look of the character, only the performance, which I why I pointed out that we are discussing the appearance, not the performance.

 

[deathfromabove]

can someone point me in the direction of that character who wore dirty purple dickensian clothing, decaying whiteface with red lipstick, who talked like richard nixon doing a daffy duck impersontion while channeling a bad magician arguing with a carnival barker? oh and he had these crazy gross healed scars in the shape of a smile. i'm pretty sure i've seen that somewhere before.

i'm sorry but anyone who thinks we are not getting an original take here (i'm not saying anything about its quality) is blind (or should be.)

i mean, say what you want, but i think its rather obvious whatever visual inspiration was used, the end result is indeed, unique.