To: The Burton Haters

[Superwoman Prime]

Isn't it weird watching Batman Returns, and hearing the name Schrek? I always think about the ogre Shrek. Heheh.

 

[El Payaso]

Leave the non killing code for pansies such as Spidey and Supes.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

The Penguin technically wasn't killed by Batman. The Penguin pressed the button that released the bats. You can't fault Batman for that one.

As for the Joker, Batman was only trying to keep him from getting away. If you try and tell me that Batman knew the Gargoyle was going to break away from the parapet, I may commit suicide. :-b

Plus, the Joker died in the first comic he appeared in (Batman #1).

 

[The Joker]

Plus, the Joker died in the first comic he appeared in (Batman #1).

No, he didn't. He was incarcerated in prison at the end.

 

[Buttman]

True, he may've not known the Gargoyle would break off, but he had absolutely every intention of murdering The Joker, when he left that night. "I'm gunna' kill you," Rockets & Machine guns aimed at him, punching him off a roof, etc etc.

The whole "Batman has killed in the comics" thing, you gotta remember, he's killed in like, 4 people maybe. In what? 67 years? At LEAST one comic a month since then? Let's say, with the current run. You got Batman, Detective, Legends, and All-Star. 4 x 67 = 268. Including standalones and GNs, let's say, Batman has had roughly 500 adventures/comics. If you consider he ussually faces half-a-dozen goons each issue, the opportunities for Batman to have killed another human being are in the thousands. Thats 4 times, out of several thousand chances. Batman kills more than 4 goons over the period of the Burton movie. Keep in mind too, according to continuiality during when the movie was made, Batman has never killed. As far as I'm concerned, Batman shouldn't have killed, or, if they really had too, to wrap up the movie, Only The Joker and Penguin. The goons are only "tools" of villians, afterall.

I still love the movies though.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

No, he didn't. He was incarcerated in prison at the end.

Only at the end of the first story....read the whole issue. In the second, he stabs himself - but in the last panel the paramedics are shocked to find he's going to live. So I was wrong.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Interesting how Batman kills some thugs himself, but after watching the Penguin die (apparently) then tries to convince Selina not to kill Schreck and that they should take him to the police.

He killed earlier in the film because after killing Naiper, he was consumed by the darkness (a nice nod to Batman being more ruthless in the books after Jason Todd had died). Bruce says that "you go out and find another face, and another" in BF as a reference to his condition in BR. After he meets Selina and knows her true identity, he sees himself reflected in her, and it brings him back from the darkness. Shocks him, makes him think: "What am I doing, am I that much like her?" Thus, why he doesn't kill in the second half of BR, he's partially redeemed. But Selina goes AWOL before he can come all the way.

At the end of BR, he's stuck in purgatory, alone, forever alone. And by getting the chance to save Robin from self-destruction, another person in his similar state, he fully redeems himself by the end of BF.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

He killed earlier in the film because after killing Naiper, he was consumed by the darkness (a nice nod to Batman being more ruthless in the books after Jason Todd had died).

How do you know that? Has Burton stated it anywhere? Batman kills before and after the Joker, I don't think there's any 'consumation by darkness'. Plus, I don't think Burton even looked at the comicbooks of the time whilst making Batman Returns.

Bruce says that "you go out and find another face, and another" in BF as a reference to his condition in BR.

But that's in Batman Forever, a film by completely different writers, directors and actors.

After he meets Selina and knows her true identity, he sees himself reflected in her, and it brings him back from the darkness. Shocks him, makes him think: "What am I doing, am I that much like her?" Thus, why he doesn't kill in the second half of BR, he's partially redeemed. But Selina goes AWOL before he can come all the way.

At the end of BR, he's stuck in purgatory, alone, forever alone. And by getting the chance to save Robin from self-destruction, another person in his similar state, he fully redeems himself by the end of BF.

It works that way, but I don't believe it was written purposely that way, unfortunetly. Forever is supposed to be a more family friendly movie, not really a sequel to Returns in any way.

 

[ab38416]

edit

 

[cryptic name]

Tim Burton was all wrong for Batman.

His movies are worthless.

no movie is worthless. and tim burton's batman films are works of art, even if not your ideal interpretation of the character.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

How do you know that? Has Burton stated it anywhere? Batman kills before and after the Joker, I don't think there's any 'consumation by darkness'. Plus, I don't think Burton even looked at the comicbooks of the time whilst making Batman Returns.

Who says it came from Tim? My eyes are pointed at Daniel Waters, maybe even what was left of Sam Hamm's first draft of BR that got used. Of course, it's a bit of a stretch... I don't consider it a truly conscious nod to the comics.

But that's in Batman Forever, a film by completely different writers, directors and actors.

The Encore show "The Directors" had an episode about Tim Burton, and from what I hear (I'm still trying to track it down, myself), he talks about how he made a preliminary draft of BF that the Batchlers used, which deals with the redemption aspect, to tie up BR. It's too bad so much else from BF tried to move away from what Burton did so that people missed the connection.

It works that way, but I don't believe it was written purposely that way, unfortunetly. Forever is supposed to be a more family friendly movie, not really a sequel to Returns in any way.

Then how do you explain the flashbacks of Bruce's parents' deaths done to look so much like what Burton had done, Bruce saying his parents were killed by a maniac (Would you consider Joe Chill a maniac?) and Chase's line about needing "Skintight Vinyl and a Whip" to get under Batman's skin?

It's a sequel, but indeed, Schumacher wanted to move away from Burton and almost made people miss the connections. With the Burton storyline wrapped up, that's why B&R had little-to-no connection with the previous films and a plot that did not specifically evoke the previous three, either. The only reason BF has sequel elements to BR is because of Burton working with the Batchlers.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

....

 

[Kevin Roegele]

The Encore show "The Directors" had an episode about Tim Burton, and from what I hear (I'm still trying to track it down, myself), he talks about how he made a preliminary draft of BF that the Batchlers used, which deals with the redemption aspect, to tie up BR. It's too bad so much else from BF tried to move away from what Burton did so that people missed the connection.

Oho, I see. I'll be on the lookout for that episode as well.

 

[ReptileOrion]

well i dont like batman killing, but i do like the scene when he destroys Axis chemicals. Its not so much he's killing people, but destroying everything the Joker used to poisen Gotham.

I agree....it was a very cool and powerful scene. I also view it as Batman getting retribution for the death of his parents (Burton continuity...lol) and also taking a proactive approach to ending the Joker's menace on the city.

 

[Rynan]

He could of tried to save The Penguin though.He didnt even check to see if he was alive.

I hate to say it, but if I saw a pudgy bird man fall about 30 feet into a concrete pool with 4 feet of water in it(give or take), I would go with Batman's first thought and just assume he cracked his skull open at the bottom of the pool.

And his defense, Batman did look mighty shocked when The Penguin turned to be alive. I can't blame him. I mean, how many people do you know that can walk from a fall like that and still have the mental facilities to try to kill you an umbrella?

 

[ab38416]

Penguin didn't die from the fall. He died because Catwoman destroyed that giant air-conditioner. He was overheated.

 

[SelinaAndBruce]

Yeah I always got the feeling from Batman Returns that that was going to be Batman's realization that killing perhaps was not the best method after his talk with Selina and seeing her obsession with revenge.

 

[CConn]

Penguin didn't die from the fall. He died because Catwoman destroyed that giant air-conditioner. He was overheated.

It was the dead of winter, though.

 

[ab38416]

It was the dead of winter, though.

Tell that to Daniel Waters.

 

[Catman]

wow! I completely forgot about this thread. Thanks for bringing it back. lol.

And I forgot about it again!

Interesting how Batman kills some thugs himself, but after watching the Penguin die (apparently) then tries to convince Selina not to kill Schreck and that they should take him to the police.

He just doesn't want Selina to be a murderer.

 

[dude stannis]

Leave the non killing code for pansies such as Spidey and Supes.

Supes didn't seem so concerned about Luthor and co when he launched NKI into space. For all he knows they could've burned up in the Earth's atmosphere. So Spidey is the only wuss. He cries for cripes sakes.

 

[BurtonBegan]

Burton was the best thing that ever happened to Batman, we could've easily ended up with a 'Batman and Robin' from day one if anyone else had been chosen to direct. He rejuvenated the character, and told two stories that were non patronising and packed with physicological connotations as well as action.
Without Burton on board, I also doubt that we would've had one of the most amazing film scores of all time as Elfman wouldn't have been brought onboard.

 

[The Joker]

Penguin didn't die from the fall. He died because Catwoman destroyed that giant air-conditioner. He was overheated.

That didn't make much sense, though. He had been strutting around Gotham wearing heavy clothes, and that didn't bother him.

How would the air conditioner getting busted affect him? I assumed it was the toxic stuff dribbling from his mouth that killed him. He fell into the same pool of sewage he was going to drown the children in.

Poetic justice that it was that which killed him.

 

[ShaneHelms]

The water that Selina pulled Shreck into, is the same place Penguin falls.

Hmm.

 

[Catman]

Burton was the best thing that ever happened to Batman, we could've easily ended up with a 'Batman and Robin' from day one if anyone else had been chosen to direct.

True. Without B89 there would have never been a Batman: The Animated Series. That was even stated on the DVD.