The Dark Knight Rises Tom Hardy as Bane XXVII

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[The Guard]

Spoken like a true purist. That's as highly debatable as the faithfulness Nolan shows to psychological characteristics/personality traits at the expense of visual ones.

I am very much not a purist.

I'm someone who's read most of the good Batman comics out there. The more faithful and interesting psychological and mythological elements of this franchise are, for the most part, and we're talking about very few exceptions here, already found in the source material, which has been exploring those very elements for decades as well as other ones that he has yet to delve much into.

Originally posted by Batman jr.
If you don't like it, why do you keep on posting here? this negativity doesn't serve one thing.

You're obviously not reading my posts, or not comprehending them. I have never said I don't like it. In fact, I've said the opposite.

I'm not even being negative. I'm having a discussion about which concept has more complexity.

 

[The Guard]

Which part of the entire concept i just highlighted regarding the mythical cave does not seem like literal rejuvenation?

Well, since the defintion of "rejuvenation" means "reversing the aging process" or "to make young again" or "to restore to original condition", and the movie pit clearly does not literally do that...none of it, really.

I get what you're going for.

But what I'm getting at, and I should have used a word other than rejuvenation, is The Pit goes beyond symbolic revitalization and rejuvenation, while still encompassing them. It actually reverses aging. It actually cures things. Diseases, injuries, etc...and it actually brings people back to life. Among other things.

Magic is mysticism. And the latter, through ritualistic practices, have existed for thousands of years. It's a primitive concept that we're witnessing again in the trilogy, in the comics, and so forth. It's like the Ra's Al Ghul argument -- is he just one man or a title? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because the myth of Ra's Al Ghul, or indeed the myth of Batman, goes beyond his death. These older archetypes were dealing with the concept of immortality in a much more profound way than just giving us a literal rebirth. It's a spiritual rebirth, it's much more important.

Magic and mysticism certainly intersect in the real world, culturally and historically, but they are not the same thing.

And it should be pointed out that magic, in the context of the comic book Batman mythology, is actual supernatural magic, not just the cultural "idea" of magic.

While Nolan posed the "Is Ra's Al Ghul immortal" question in the movie and made it somewhat ambiguous, in the comics it very much does matter which is the case, because it has been depicted as an actual supernatural event an concept. Now, were I to adapt The Lazarus Pit to film, I would put some of that ambiguity back into it, but the comics have an existing concept and approach.

And yes, a spiritual rebirth is important, but to suggest that a spiritual rebirth is somehow less important a concept than an actual divine rebirth story and characterwise, to me that's just silly. They're both important to the concept of the Lazarus Pit in the comics, and the Lazarus Pit allows for both. There is both a spiritual rebirth AND a literal rebirth upon resurrection in the Lazarus Pit.

I did. And answered every single one of your points, including the idea of a literal rebirth and magic, in the previous posts.

Eh, kinda. You didn't really, though. What about its addictive properties? The nature of the fact that it actually causes dead things to come back to life?

I made a list:

-Fountain of youth
-The Lazarus Pit has chemical components...has to be sought out and created, and then has a finite use after it is created
-There's an element of both courage/cowardice required to use the Pit.
-The Lazarus pit has curative properties, and brings people back to life. Not only metaphorically, as this concept would, but it ACTUALLY does it. It beings people back from the dead.
-The Lazarus pit has an addictive quality to it...it is essentially a type of drug.
-There is an insanity element to it.
-Using the Pit poses an inherent risk, not just of body, but of soul.
-There are magic qualities to it.
-There's a religious significance to it.
-There's a statement about the responsible use of power
-There's a legacy element to it.

You compared the two concepts, but you only addressed a few of my points, and you never actually addressed the fact that the comic book Pit does, in fact, have more layers of meaning than the movie concept. You keep, in fact, saying that it does not.

This right here is what the problem is. It's your preference that the comic pit is more layered. So even when I say that the ideas that inspired that original comic are being highlighted in the film (possibly) and that they alone carry meaning that's much more profound, with evidence. across cultures. You're still dismissing all that as...

It's not really my preference...its just fact.

Some of the ideas that inspired the original comic book concept are in the film. Certainly not all of them, though.

Some things are just fact as much as anything can ever be. In this case, its a case of the comic book Pit simply having more structural, conceptual, mythological, spiritual and mathmatical complexity than this movie concept.

Because if the comic Pit has all the elements you speak of for the movie pit (and it does)...and then some additional layers of meaning, as I've pointed out...then it is inherently a more layered concept.

To say otherwise would be like me trying to compare BATMAN to BATMAN BEGINS and claim BATMAN is more complex because I like some of the abstract ideas it presents VS the additional concrete themes and concepts found in BATMAN BEGINS.

That's ignorant. And not only that...

Ignorance would indicate I am unaware of its meaning or relevance.

I don't think it is ignortant in the least. I think its realistic.

You don't have the change the way you think to succeed at something like climbing out of the pit.

Storywise, this CAN be a spiritual element, but it certainly doesn't HAVE to be there.

I think it's ironic that you like the more realistic/mythical aspects of the movie Pit, but you also want an inherent "spiritual" change that you indicate HAS to happen, despite the fact that physically, it does not. While it would be a welcome story addition, does it ultimately have to take place for the story point to work.

You're deliberately confusing what I said back there mate -- I said you face and embrace your totem while inside the damn cave/pit. The pit itself is not a totem. And I thought I was being clear at that. Anyway.

Why would I deliberately confuse myself?

It's a primitive image where one meets with the totem that stays with him for the rest of his life.

That was a little vaguely worded. I thought you were specifically referring to the totem because of it. You meant "It's a primitive image" in terms of "Its the environment where one meets the totem". My mistake.

The whole concept of becoming more than just a man, yes that's a large part of the hero's journey and Bruce's own journey in this entire trilogy. If Batman Begins was about the Myth of Batman started off, TDK and Rises are about what that myth was and how it ended. So yeah, it goes back to the struggle of one man trying to become a myth and then succeeding. It connects back to the cave because that's sort of where it all starts. I only said that it's a crucial part of hte trilogy, not that it is the trilogy itself -- you still need him to climb out and then face his biggest threat head on. Face DEATH, what Ra's had been telling him from Begins, when you are not ready, when you're vulnerable, when you're outmatched but you face it anyway because you know, after having climbed out of that cave, that it doesn't matter. You've overcome that fear and changed. Mortality doesn't matter to you or your totem because it's been universalised. So even if Batman dies or doesn't die -- you mentioned The Grey -- it's just like that, in the end it wouldn't matter because he's already struggled through and accomplished what he sought out to -- the cave and the act of climbing out of it typifies that struggle, and has for a long time.

You're speaking in story tems. About what psychological and spiritual elements could serve a story.

I'm talking about whether a character would actually have to change to be able to physically climb out of the pit.

They wouldn't. Characterwise, it would certainly be nice if they did, but they wouldn't have to.

And to suggest that Bruce Wayne needs to change, to overcome death, to conquer this obstacle, to me that suggests that Bruce Wayne himself is already afraid of death.

I don't think he is. He showed he was willing to face death several times over already in this franchise.

I don't think this is the regard he'll need to change in. I think Bruce Wayne needs to find what he was when he was Batman again.

In other words, I'm guessing it's going to be less about overcoming his fear of death (which is inherent in the act of climbing out of that pit), and more about coming to terms with who he is, to WANT to climb out, to continue his work as Batman, and to resume battle with Bane for Gotham's soul.

Sharkboy laid it out better than I did when he said the very act of climbing out of the cave -- equating the physical with the psychological -- externalising your fears into an act accomplishes that. So it's a much more profound idea about committing yourself to the Pit/Cave and coming out, in the comics, that unpreparedness isn't there because whoever uses it (Ra's) is conscious of it.

Except that the first time Ra's used the Pit, he didn't know what would happen, and initial uses of The Pit caused people to suffer horribly and then die. So there's very much an unpreparedness to it. It's not exactly an exact science/magic.

It sort of destroys the very idea of facing your fears. Of immortality being you facing your fears with that element of fear in it and overcoming it, of not giving a damn whether you do survive or not.

The element of fear is very much intact in the comic version. With The Lazarus Pit, you never know what you'll come out of the Pit as. It's less about actual death, and more about "What kind of person/thing will you be?" What type of insanity will you have to grapple with? Will you abuse power? Lose your grasp on reality? Your sanity? Your compassion?

You could lose your very self, and that's every bit as compelling a literary concept as possibly losing your life. That's a very clear fear you have to face. Fear of death, not only of body, but of soul.

 

[craigdbfan]

Alright enough is enough. There's nothing wrong with this conversation but it has absolutely nothing to do with Tom Hardy as Bane. This conversation is drowning out and overtaking this thread.

If you guys would like to continue this conversation take it to this thread. Thanks!

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=353235

 

[The Guard]

If you get out of the cave, you know, inwardly, that all that impossible tasks (bringing down Bane) can be done.

Which you should really know anyway, as someone like Batman. I get it. Its a confidence builder. A lot of things are storywise.

Well, on the surface you have that because you're essentially reviving the hero. For a more content audience, it'd be a simple formula of "okay Bruce can't be Batman, put him in the Pit, he's rejuvenated, now he's Batman again." But on a more thematic level it echoes Bruce's own struggle in the cave. I already explained why. I guess I'll do a better job at it if I write a more coherent article or blog entry but hell.

And I see why that's relevant to the movie, if the Pit is more about Bruce's struggle.

But I asked why that would be needed in the comics. In the comics, it's more about Ra's Al Ghul's struggle. Bruce has been tempted by it, and tested by it, but it is Ra's Al Ghul's (and Talia's) obstacle to overcome.

Yes, because that's the whole point isn't it? You can do what your hero is doing. Now, I don't know how they'll show the pit here yet, maybe the magical properties will be alluded to for the believers, but... as The Dark Knight Rises , associated with this image of a broken Bruce Wayne clawing his way out of an underground pit, rising up and above, the entire promotional feature of the audience looking up and seeing the Bat insignia as "rising up" as well, literally like old Bruce just as he'd done in the past... it all ties up together. I'm saying that this state of mind is impossible to attain unless you undergo the same sort of traumatic experience.

That's the thing. That state of mind isn't impossible to attain unless you undergo some traumatic experience.

That may be what the movie will present Bruce having to do, but in truth, what you need to attain that state of mind is focus and determination.

I can easily see a story version where Bruce, just not wanting to waste any more time, getting pissed off and uses his skill to climb out of there. Would that be as compelling? No. But it would still work.

And heck, if he solves it, if Bruce emerges out of that cave and realises he no longer has that need to be Batman (don't know how or why yet, it might tie in to the parts of the story we have yet to see) then it does essentially make sense.

It would. Because he's not down there anymore. Though, for argument's sake, he more or less goes back down "there" everytime he goes into the cave.

Except, the mythical concept, which I'm presuming is there in the film, does more than that.

Yes, but all the things the film concept does are also found in the concept of The Lazarus
Pit. This is my point.

I explained why already. If you're not convinced then that's up to you, but you haven't highlighted a single reason why the comic book Lazarus Pit has that edge better. It can't be simply the fact that you go crazy (which itself reads like the writers didn't know where they were drawing their ideas from), or that these pits have magical properties (magic and mysticism are equitable).

The Lazarus Pit isn't as simple as going crazy. It's about going mad with power, about not being able to control yourself. There are all kinds of consequences to that. And that's only one of the elements to it; the insanity.

I made a list.

I think you're just not open to the idea at all if you say something like that. You're again, simplifying it.

Explain to me how he has to grow up. Explain to me how he has to grow up to get out of there, after he's already essentially done that as a character.

Overcoming fear is not growing up. Fear is some thing that everyone has to deal with. Growing up is growing up. And Bruce has already grown up in this franchise. That's how he became Batman. He chose not to be selfish and vengeful, he cast aside his immature, childish impulses, and trained himself to better the lives of others.

So now he has to what, grow up again? That's not terribly interesting.

You'd be surprised how much the allegory of the cave ties in with the Batman mythos, or most other mythos.

No I wouldn't. I took high school and college English, and if I hadn't, I've read books and seen movies, and could have put it together anyway. It's everywhere in literature, film, and myth. My point is, this Pit isn't neccessarily his allegory of the cave. He's already been through that.

This is one of his later trials as a hero. It may call back the cave he fell into originally, but even then, that wasn't the allegory of the cave either. That was just the mouth of the cave. His confrontation with the bats and the psychological elements surrounding that were.

But you think that the deliberately made connection is pointless?

No. Where have I said that?

Well those additional layers weren't in the 6 or 7 points you mentioned previously.

Yes they were.

I listed 10 points, and there are arguably more than that. Each of them brings with it a layer of meaning for the concept of the comic book Lazarus Pit.

As has been pointed out, The Lazarus Pit has a lot more to it than green, bubbly fountain of youth:
-The Lazarus Pit has chemical components...has to be sought out and created, and then has a finite use after it is created
-There's an element of both courage/cowardice required to use the Pit.
-The Lazarus pit has curative properties, and brings people back to life. Not only metaphorically, as this concept would, but it ACTUALLY does it. It beings people back from the dead.
-The Lazarus pit has an addictive quality to it...it is essentially a type of drug.
-There is an insanity element to it.
-Using the Pit poses an inherent risk, not just of body, but of soul.
-There are magic qualities to it.
-There's a religious significance to it.
-There's a statement about the responsible use of power
-There's a legacy element to it.

Again, no one debates the compelling nature of the Lazurus pit, but then again...it would look incredibly stupid in the Nolan series, Resurrection as a whole is stupid if not done in the right story, and this certainly isn't the right story, so you've found yourself arguing the merits of something that wouldn't even work in the nolan series, and it has nothing to do with realism, it's just not even in the aesthetics of the series for it to ever function that way.

The Lazarus Pit working well in the Nolan franchise is an argument I have never made.
I feel like I have been very clear about that, especially within the last few pages.
All I have ever said is that the Lazarus Pit is a more complex and layered concept than this proposed movie Pit.

Which, frankly, stems from the fact that comic book Batman and his mythology are a more complex set of concepts and a myth than what has been presented.

Well then, ideally speaking, the mythical cave is clearly much more complex and interesting than the pit from the comics which only addresses one layer of the primordial element we're discussing: that being the ability to rejuvenate you.

The comic book Pit has several more layers than that. That's just the elemet/layer we're currently focused on discussing.

This pit, the mythical pit, has layers of initiation, mortality, sexual growth, heroic potence, overcoming fear, embracing your inner totem, and coming out and being reborn as a hero to save the day.

So does the comic book Pit, on multilpe levels, with multiple layers. Actually, the comic book Pit allows one to be reborn as both a hero AND a villain.

It helps that those who are committed to the mythical pit were not aware told of exactly what would happen to them -- that uncertainty pervades the entire experience, which is in a way symbolic of human life itself, so when you come out and you face your own existential dilemma -- that you will die -- it doesn't matter to you because you know that your entire life itself is just another cave that you will have to climb out of, so by the time you die, you will be reborn in another state of being. That's how Plato interpreted it, or for someone who's much closer to Nolan, how Mal from Inception interprets life and death. These are concepts you don't have in the comic book Pit, certainly the sense of uncertainty isn't as overtly there -- the only thing you're uncertain of is your own state of mind, you're pretty much aware that you'll be rejuvenated physically. The mythical pit promises oblivion, and it's up to you to say no to that.

As I pointed out above, those concepts of uncertainty ARE found in the comic book Lazarus Pit.

Coming back to Bane. Something tells me that Bane already underwent that ordeal on some level. I agree with you that to large extent Bruce has underwent that in Begins and TDK when he became batman and later when realises what he has to do to stop men like the Joker, obviously there'll be some relevance as to why he has to do the same thing again in TDKR. One of them, I can surmise, is because like in The Dark Knight Returns ("the rain feels like a baptism on my chest) or KnightQuest (bruce literally relearning the steps) he has to overcome his own shortcomings in order to face the threat in Gotham again -- he has to become Batman anew -- so there's that. But, of obviously i dont have the answer to that. Bane could have undergone the same ritual which caused him to have put on that mask and depend on the venom gas in the first place (the analgesic being this film's iteration of venom) so he think he can overcome that.

Personally, I'm betting that by now Batman or not, Bruce has to realise that the whole idea of being a hero is redundant because it keeps you trapped in this endless cycle of death (as a hero) and rebirth (as a villain) order and chaos, of revolution and counter-revolution, so the best bet is to give Gotham an existence beyond superheroes, vigilantes, terrorists, dictators, and supervillains.

Oh, Bane definitely went through it already.

Maybe Bruce will find out that lying is a bad idea.

I don't think the concept is that the idea of being a hero is redundant. I think the concept is that there is a cost associated with it. He's going to have to accept it.

It'll be interesting finding out.

 

[craigdbfan]

I'm repeating this because another wall of text that again is 99% Lazarus pit related was posted.

Alright enough is enough. There's nothing wrong with this conversation but it has absolutely nothing to do with Tom Hardy as Bane. This conversation is drowning out and overtaking this thread.

If you guys would like to continue this conversation take it to this thread. Thanks!

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=353235

 

[The Guard]

Turns out SHH has a silly word limit thing. I edited and posted the second half of my discussion before I ever read your first post.

Fair enough. I was unaware we were interrupting the scads of interesting conversation. Someone needed caffeine, someone said "Ben", there were a couple of random jokes, some discussion about Ra's and Joker and Scarecrow. I shall take it to the proper thread.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

 

[Corey]

You're obviously not reading my posts, or not comprehending them. I have never said I don't like it. In fact, I've said the opposite.

I'm not even being negative. I'm having a discussion about which concept has more complexity.

Pretty much.
For some reason, over the last couple of years, there has been this growing mob mentality that if you dare criticize aspects of Nolan's Bat films, it is tantamount to treason and that you are very much against ALL of the directorial decisions of this trilogy--or that you don't enjoy the films.

This is preposterous. People should be able to boldly express their opinions about any and all aspects of these films, as long as they do it respectfully, and as long as they explain or back up their statements. If you don't agree with them, that's one thing. But asking why someone is still here just because they are simply comparing a portion of the film to it's possible comic counterpart, and explaining why they feel the comic counterpart is more multi-layered, is just assinine. It's pretty common sense, one would think.

Markedly differing points of view is a sign of a healthy forum, prevents a stagnation of ideas and conversation, and benefits us all because we might get to here a point of view that we would have otherwise never thought of before, and might change the way we looked at something for the better.

I think Keyser Soze sardonically said it best:
There is no middle ground between beligerent haters and blind Nolan fanboys.


Both The Guard and Nave Torment--while very different--are excellent, insightful posters, and I honestly look forward to reading their posts. Nave's various threads dissertating archetypes, symbolism, and myths are second to none and literally helped me appreciate even more layers out of repeat viewings of Inception, the Batman films, and The Prestige. The Guard brings a much needed no nonsense analytical approach to his contributions to this forum, and reading his textual monoliths is refreshing and often comes not a moment too soon. He doesn't seem to post as much as he used to and that's a shame. Just a few weeks ago, I was wondering, "Where is The Guard?!", as we're getting closer and closer to the final installment of the Nolan Bat films, and I probably won't be hearing from him much after that.


So yeah. I appreciate posters like Nave Torment, The Guard, Regwec, Saint, Rag, Anita, Miranda Fox, Boom, etc etc.

Keep on keeping on

 

[The Guard]

I wonder if there's a way to change my "Sidekick" tag to "Textual Monolith".

 

[Figs]

I wonder if there's a way to change my "Sidekick" tag to "Textual Monolith".

Go to User CP then Edit Details.

 

[Batman jr.]

Pretty much.
For some reason, over the last couple of years, there has been this growing mob mentality that if you dare criticize aspects of Nolan's Bat films, it is tantamount to treason and that you are very much against ALL of the directorial decisions of this trilogy--or that you don't enjoy the films.

This is preposterous. People should be able to boldly express their opinions about any and all aspects of these films, as long as they do it respectfully, and as long as they explain or back up their statements. If you don't agree with them, that's one thing. But asking why someone is still here just because they are simply comparing a portion of the film to it's possible comic counterpart, and explaining why they feel the comic counterpart is more multi-layered, is just assinine. It's pretty common sense, one would think.

Markedly differing points of view is a sign of a healthy forum, prevents a stagnation of ideas and conversation, and benefits us all because we might get to here a point of view that we would have otherwise never thought of before, and might change the way we looked at something for the better.

I think Keyser Soze sardonically said it best:
There is no middle ground between beligerent haters and blind Nolan fanboys.


Both The Guard and Nave Torment--while very different--are excellent, insightful posters, and I honestly look forward to reading their posts. Nave's various threads dissertating archetypes, symbolism, and myths are second to none and literally helped me appreciate even more layers out of repeat viewings of Inception, the Batman films, and The Prestige. The Guard brings a much needed no nonsense analytical approach to his contributions to this forum, and reading his textual monoliths is refreshing and often comes not a moment too soon. He doesn't seem to post as much as he used to and that's a shame. Just a few weeks ago, I was wondering, "Where is The Guard?!", as we're getting closer and closer to the final installment of the Nolan Bat films, and I probably won't be hearing from him much after that.


So yeah. I appreciate posters like Nave Torment, The Guard, Regwec, Saint, Rag, Anita, Miranda Fox, Boom, etc etc.

Keep on keeping on

I don't know where I ever said that criticism is forbidden. But what's the point in over-analyzing a movie that's made to entertain us? What's the point in continuing about a Lazarus Pit, which is in the movie, isn't that good enough? How do we know it'll be shown? How do we know who'll use it and for how long?

OT.

I must confess that I was a bit skeptical when Hardy was announced as Bane. I mean: will he be able to bring the level of dedication that's needed for this part? I was sure that Nolan would not go to dumb BR Bane, but still. And how will he look?

I wasn't sold on the look at first, but was amazed by his body. He must've trained like crazy. Once I've seen Bane "in action" I was sold completely. It's not only his size, but also his eyes: just look at the moment where he takes Batman's fist and pushes him away... we will NOT like this Bane for sure.

I like dedication, which is what made me a Bale, De Niro & Oldman-fan.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Alright enough is enough. There's nothing wrong with this conversation but it has absolutely nothing to do with Tom Hardy as Bane. This conversation is drowning out and overtaking this thread.

If you guys would like to continue this conversation take it to this thread. Thanks!

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=353235

Agreed :|

 

[BatmanBeyond]

I am very much not a purist.

I'm someone who's read most of the good Batman comics out there. The more faithful and interesting psychological and mythological elements of this franchise are, for the most part, and we're talking about very few exceptions here, already found in the source material, which has been exploring those very elements for decades as well as other ones that he has yet to delve much into.

Fair enough. Thank you for the entertaining conversation, gents.

Back to Bane...I'm disappointed we didn't hear any new lines from him in that Hong Kong TV Spot, but I guess the release is not all that far off right now, so no biggie.

 

[Octoberist]

Did people just outright ingore poor Craig?

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

Did people just outright ingore poor Craig?

Apparently.

 

[Fenrir]

 

[Baneis8feettall]

 

[BestGirl]

What's the story behind this gif?

 

[Travesty]

What's the story behind this gif?

It's a youtube video of Bane dancing in a lot of different styles.

Here it is: [YT]ReRQKd5fFbc[/YT]

 

[Baneis8feettall]

t:

 

[Just_Human]

Bane's pose in the new poster

Straight from Bane's origin comics

 

[BrollySupersj]

I'm curiosus about one of Bane's outfits. So far he has 3. Jacket No jacket with under shirt No jacket no under shirt But there's a forth one that I saw in the Nokia trailer, he's wearing somet outfit that covers his whole upper body, but it isn't his jacket. Anyone have HD captures of it?

 

[dinste1]

I'm curiosus about one of Bane's outfits. So far he has 3. Jacket No jacket with under shirt No jacket no under shirt But there's a forth one that I saw in the Nokia trailer, he's wearing somet outfit that covers his whole upper body, but it isn't his jacket. Anyone have HD captures of it?

This ?

Motorbike Jacket I think ?