Too much action?

Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by BLobo, Feb 18, 2014.

?

Too much action

  1. Yes

  2. No

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  1. KRYPTON INC.

    KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    THE ENDLESS I am not saying that YOU mischaracterize MOS' finale but brother, there are more than enough posters that DO. "Superman knocked over all those buildings!!" Uh.. NO he did not. "Well... I still don't like it. I mean Jon Kent and his wife were abusive parents" You mean when Martha calls the truth of Clark's origin "beautiful" or when Jon says that WHEN the time comes Clark will look on his powers as a "blessing" they were abusive? "What ever..."

    That's the attitude I'm talking about. And yes, it is frustrating to see that Hulk and Thor get a pass for not trying to stop that Leviathan from crashing into the VERY OBVIOUSLY still filled with people Grand Central, but Superman gets crucified for the scoutship crashing into a couple of demolished buildings at the edge of the blast zone of the Black Zero attack.

    But you know what? I call a mulligan on ALL the nitpicks and gripes in THE AVENGERS because before MOS IT was the most like seeing a comic book come to life. MOS just did that to an even greater magnitude. There is nothing that happens in MOS or AVENGERS that does not regularly occur in a superhero comic, but once we as fans finally get that we piss and moan.

    Now that I've got a taste of the epic action, I AINT GOING BACK TO THE FINALES OF YESTERYEARS!!! Too often they just petered out, or were not very satisfying. Whedon and Snyder gave us all what we said we wanted for so long. The internet forum backlash for it befuddles me. Batman gets mulligan after mulligan in the Nolan films even after all his "one rule" BS, then the film's story and the fans eat up what ever technicalities one can imagine to absolve the character of any "sin". Superman? "He's boring, and I dislike the character and his stories, but please, also don't do anything new or challenging with him cuz we'll piss and moan about that too."
     
    #76
  2. bluearth

    bluearth Well-Known Member

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    It all goes back to Snyder who is a visual director. He shows many instances of Superman saving people even as a little boy. This should tell the audience he cares about human life. But because the film didnt feature a throwaway memorial scene like the one in the avengers ending or one cut of captain america protecting a dozen people then some folks thought Superman didnt care, totally ignoring the previous 130 minutes and the fact superman resorted to killing to save lives. All the while the people who complained that he saved nobody complained about him killing to save.

    We planly see in the final battle Metropolis is still largely intact but because theres no scene dedicated to the press surveying the damage peoples imaginations ran wild. Theres countless people who believe Metroplis was totally destroyed. Max Landis was upset Lois was invited to a game because he mistakenly believed a: the daily planet scene took place 24 hours later and b: the stadium was destroyed with most of the city.

    I guess it could be considered a flaw in snyders direction. For a few days I even thought Superman screamed after killing zod because he saw the family dead, as there isnt a clear shot of them alive afterwards.
     
    #77
  3. sportjames23

    sportjames23 Well-Known Member

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    *high fives KRYPTON, INC.*


    My dude!
     
    #78
  4. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    Krypton Inc, I think you just saved the freaking day. That was EPIC sir :up:
     
    #79
  5. KRYPTON INC.

    KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    Don't thank me... (rises up into the air) We're all on the same team. Good nite. (salutes and flies off. Williams theme starts to play.) :word: :woot:
     
    #80
  6. Micromind

    Micromind New World New Rules

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    Even when I saw the movie for the first time... I never thought that the Daily Planet scene happened 24 hours after the destruction of Metropolis.

    I never thought that Superman screamed after he killing Zod as the family died, it was because he was responsible for Zod's death, one of the few survivors of his Kryptonian race.

    It is really weird how people can imagine what is not intended, but at the same time cannot imagine what the filmmakers want you to imagine.
     
    #81
  7. Micromind

    Micromind New World New Rules

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    The space-ship crashed on a few abandoned buildings, the buildings were in the area where Black Zero had flattened out a few blocks of the city.

    Supes did not let it crash on buildings full of people, that part of Metropolis was already cleared.

    After all, why would anyone stay in the buildings where an alien ship is causing destruction and where fighter jets are firings missiles over that ship ? (And all this happened before Supes came back into Metropolis.)

    Those who are making such baseless complaints need to see the movie again.
     
    #82
  8. sportjames23

    sportjames23 Well-Known Member

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    They've had it pointed out to them many times. They just ignore it when they get checked.
     
    #83
  9. Micromind

    Micromind New World New Rules

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    I wish Snyder had left the longer cut of the scene where Clark Kent rides the bicycle in Metropolis to reach the Daily Planet office looking for a job.

    Where the sign-boards of rebuilding the part of Metropolis are displayed, which shows that it took them time to get the city back to normal.

    This also shows that Clark Kent did not go looking for a job 24 hours after the destruction caused by Black Zero, after all the sign boards cannot be put up for advertisement withing 24 hours of such an incident. :p

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #84
  10. sportjames23

    sportjames23 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't know why scenes like that were left out. It makes everything seem so abrupt at the end of the film.
     
    #85
  11. kguillou

    kguillou Well-Known Member

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    Imo, the action is what took my breath away in this movie. I will agree that maybe the film could've maybe...paced the action a little better between scenes but the action scenes themselves, especially the Smallville fight were absolutely amazing. I had been waiting sooo long for a superhero movie to give us a truly epic, all out destructive battle and MoS absolutely delivered. In fact, this was the kind of epic scale action i was HOPING we were going to see in The Avengers and the Battle of New York just looks very tame to the Battle of Metropolis.

    This is what has me SOO excited for Supes' battle with the Dark Knight in the next movie. I doubt its going to be nearly as destructive as MoS but you bet your tuckus it is going to be EPIC, perhaps the coolest superhero showdown ever. You just know Snyder is going to knock that out of the park.

    Just my thoughts.
     
    #86
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  12. blumatic

    blumatic Well-Known Member

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    I will stand corrected on the Avengers. Cap saved them in the same sense Superman saved the city by destroying the World Engine. But remember. They are a team. Ironman Hulk and Thor didn't save anyone directly, let's crap on them for not doing enough.

    Secondly the villain always chooses the site of battle. Superman was chasing Zod. Zod was fighting aimlessly. The travel at crazy speeds. They were there in space by accident.


    Secondly artistically speaking, you have to fight in the city. What awesome battle did not take place in a city.

    Superman taking the fight to a desert would be so boring.
     
    #87
  13. Batmannerism

    Batmannerism Super-unknown

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    Totally with you on the artistic value of having a fight in the city, but
    also giving the fight some scale. I mean Thor v Loki in Avengers was pretty much like 2 ordinary guys fighting, Supes v Zod was waayyyy more epic - even when they trade a couple of blows on the ground, it's much more like two gods fighting. And yes, part of the epic feeling comes from the speed and the destruction - which was highlighted by the urban setting. It was an artistic choice and one that worked. Yeah, I suppose he and Zod could have levelled some mountain ranges, but that wouldn't be as dramatic IMO

    It's weird how when we get on to the action in MOS, it always seems to come back to that old "Superman didn't save anyone" complaint. I suppose if you only see the movie once, you might get lost in all the action, so fair enough. But like somebody else said, watch the film again and you realise that's just not true.

    As to the destruction being over the top or "disaster porn" what I
    I truly believe is that Snyder/Nolan's point in making that choice was
    that they wanted to say " If Superman really had a fight in the middle of a city, THIS is what it would look like."

    On that note, I loved the fact that we got a very close up view of cars and people being flattened by the gravity beam. Avengers cops out a little by not showing civillian casualties ( you mean the Chitauri didn't manage to kill anyone, come on ? )

    I don't want to knock the Avengers, it was tremendous fun, but I think
    MOS was a spectacle at least one level up from that, with much greater
    stakes.

    Besides, comparisons with Avengers start to break down when you think about them a little, especially in respect of the final battle, partly because the Kryptonians didn't send in a bunch of soliders on flying quad bikes, who carried small arms, they used a single immensely destructive weapon.
    So containing the damage was a different challenge - a challenge they were able to succeed at because, there's more than just one person.
    (also, Supes did contain it, to Metropolis, as opposed to the whole world)


    Which is also, as you pointed out, the reason the Avengers were able to save a few people (well some of them did) is because....they're a team, which by definition means there's more than one of them. Superman, for all his great power, is one person, and can't be in two places at once. So he could either fight Zod, or let Zod smash more of Metropolis

    Plus, Zod was virtually as powerful as Superman (which makes him infinitely more powerful, dangerous and destructive than the Chitauri ), whereas the Avengers who were solely fighting the Chitauri (Thor, Iron Man and Hulk) were basically picking off bugs (well, big nasty bugs, but compared to Thor, bugs).

    And of course again there's the big picture, that if Supes doesn't stop Zod there and then, well, that's it for the human race (which is the reason he had to kill Zod, not to save the family, but to save humanity).

    And in terms of saving people you've got:

    the oil rig workers, the kids in the school bus, Lois in the escape pod, the helicopter pilot, the entire human race (by destroying the world engine), the family at the end. So there's actually a few saves there.

    Why didn't he save anyone during the battle ?

    Saving the pilot was a great example of what happens when Superman stops in the middle of a battle to save someone, he gets smacked from behind, which leaves the bad guys free to destroy more stuff, as Faora was gleefully slaughtering the soliders while Supes was busy with Nam Ek).

    Fights (even between ordinary people) are messy things -particularly when the combatants are trying to kill each other, and have similar abilities.
    The idea that Superman could exert some kind of control over the conditions is nonsense. In a real fight, you don't have time to think about what's going on. It's one thing to watch a fight, and think "Hey why doesn't that guy just..." but another thing to be in a fight and think of the right thing to do.

    Superman is pretty damn green in this film, in fact he's never been in a fight before. Is it that much of a stretch that he makes some blunders ?


    As to why Supes didn't try to catch the spaceship. Well, he was inside it when it crashed. I suspect that the reason he didn't catch it is that he just couldn't. Maybe he'd have been able to lift it if it was stationary, but an object that size (it's 300m long, so the size of 3 football fields) travelling at a few hundred miles per hour, would have been
    really hard to stop (force = mass x change in acceleration, Newton's second law).

    Remember he didn't actually stop the escape pod Lois was in (which would have been travelling pretty damn fast, as it was falling from orbit) he just caught up to it, tore it open, and pulled her out.

    Superman in MOS isn't as powerful as Silver age Superman, who could have stopped the scout-ship with one finger.

    Also, he crashed the ship into the crater left by the gravity beam, so not all that likely that anyone was left there. The fact is that almost all of the destruction caused in Metropolis was caused by the Gravity beam, or by
    Zod (using heat vision to cut the skyscraper in half so it crumbled) or tossing Supes through a bunch of buildings - remember when Supes punches Zod and sends him flying it's above the buildings, it's then Zod who flies down into the city to hide and then ambush Supes).

    (and again, big picture, if Zod has the ship, and then can kill Kal and get the codex, then humanity's history, as Zod will be able to raise a whole generation of kryptonian super-babies).

    What seems a bit of a double standard is that people make it out that when Superman gets thrown through those buildings by Zod, it's somehow his fault for the destruction that results.

    Yet, when the jets fire missiles which get deflected and then themselves
    crash into the city, causing enormous destruction, no one goes "Wow, those air force bastards did a lot of damage to Metropolis"
    Glad somebody else pointed that out ( I mean, those jets open up with missiles and cannon fire on main street Smallville, when they have troops on the ground, and civillians hiding in buildings. How many people would have got killed in the resulting explosions, waaayyy more than Supes and his Kryptonian enemies killed. And when the jets crashed, well, there goes downtown Smallville !)

    So, in summary, I enjoyed the final battle of MOS, I'm not saying that with a few tweaks it could have been even better, and possibly avoided some of the criticisms that have been levelled at it. But hey, it is what it is.

    I'm also not saying that MOS is a perfect film (I loved, LOVED, it ) but every film has its flaws, and MOS does too. However, I just can't see the action being one of them.

    Sorry to everyone who's already brought all these arguments up in defence of MOS, as I'm covering old ground.

    :super:
     
    #88
  14. manofsteel4life

    manofsteel4life Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't have said it better Batman....;)
     
    #89
  15. MrsKent26

    MrsKent26 Whatever.

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    MOS did not have too much action. It was the best CBM action I've every seen. I hope Snyder brings it for the sequel.
     
    #90
  16. Batmannerism

    Batmannerism Super-unknown

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    Cheers dude ! Let's hope Snyder listens to the poll results
    and maintains the level of action and excitement in Superman's
    next film appearance. Man, 2016 is just too far away.

    Peace out Super-fans !
     
    #91
  17. kguillou

    kguillou Well-Known Member

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    I just finished watching it again and each time I watch it the action scenes, to me, get shorter and shorter. The Smallville and Zod fights are both barely under 5 minutes. Whenever I watch those scenes now, I'm like "That's it? I remember these fights being longer!". Here's what i think: I think people were just overwhelmed with the intensity of the action and not so much the amount of action itself. When added up MoS probably has less action than The Avengers but the intensity and gravity of the action is much higher than Avengers. That's why I think people say there's "too much", they just didn't like or appreciate the massive destruction that occurred during these sequences. I, for one, thought it was pure spectacle and took my breath away. These are the kind of epic action scenes that you have to watch on a big screen tv with the volume and bass turned all the way up to really fully appreciate.

    I mean, to each his own I suppose. The Transformers movies got ripped for the same reasons (even though those movies are, in fact, bad movies). I know for a fact though that a lot of Superman fans including myself have been waiting for a movie where Superman can cut loose and show what he's capable of and I'm so happy we finally got it.
     
    #92
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  18. snpklsdmbldr

    snpklsdmbldr welcome to the planet

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    complaining about too much action in a comicbook movie is like complaining there's too much jokes in a comedy or too much crying in a drama.
     
    #93
  19. sportjames23

    sportjames23 Well-Known Member

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    *high fives the hell outta Batmannerism*
     
    #94
  20. the5timechamp

    the5timechamp Well-Known Member

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    too much action? In MOS...

    I dont think so, the tone and the stakes setup through the narrative of the film justifies the scale of the action.

    Having just watched Thor 2 I still get the same feeling that the Marvel universe is a fun place where heroes get to be heroic in a sanitized family friendly way that we can all enjoy. DC films on the other hand are fun in their own regard but the tone is definitely darker and the actions of its heroes and villains create a more palpable feeling of consequence. Its hard to quantify but DC films have tension where the villains in Marvel feel as if they exist merely to be vanquished..

    I enjoy both and feel the tones fit their respective universe better.
     
    #95
  21. MrsKent26

    MrsKent26 Whatever.

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    Agreed. Especially with the bold parts.
     
    #96
  22. the5timechamp

    the5timechamp Well-Known Member

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    Agreed as well.. the intensity caught audiences off guard..they wanted the "wholesome" superman.

    My problem with Transformers (the sequels mostly).. was that the action rang hollow because I didnt care for any of the characters or the motivations of the bad guys..it was action for actions sake..

    As much as people claim to love the forest battle in Transformers 2 I can honestly say the Scorponnok desert battle in Transformers 1 was the best sequence in those films.

    Superman earned its action and I cared for the payoff to the narratives of the villains (even the small self contained narratives "a good death..") and the heroes..
     
    #97
  23. Batmannerism

    Batmannerism Super-unknown

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    Thanks dude ! Just got to call it as I see it.
     
    #98
  24. ThePhantasm

    ThePhantasm 2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper

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    I thought the action was fine.
     
    #99
  25. Daywalker89

    Daywalker89 In Zion I await my spirit

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    That was one hell of a post brother. Post of the damn thread .
     
    #100

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