"Ultimate" in movies

[PyroChamber]

Is it usually a bad idea when a Marvel movie takes it's story more from the Ultimate universe instead of the 616 universe?

 

[Iceburgeruk]

Only if you are making a captain america movie.

Captain america 616 = Action movie with true values that show underneath what the average person dreams america can be.

Captain america ult version = goose-stepping bully, military fascist thug who beats other races to death in the name of old glory.

Lets take a quick poll. Which is the actual genuine hero? hhmm? anyone?

 

[Joker]

Only if you are making a captain america movie.

Captain america 616 = Action movie with true values that show underneath what the average person dreams america can be.

Captain america ult version = goose-stepping bully, military fascist thug who beats other races to death in the name of old glory.

Lets take a quick poll. Which is the actual genuine hero? hhmm? anyone?

first off, Ultimate Cap has never shown any racist tendencies, as you've insinuated there, and second, Ultimate Cap is more ike a real world Cap than the 616 version. Who do you think the government would give a formula that would make someone the ultimate soldier to, a free thinker who is made uncomfortable by the thought of killing, or someone who takes orders and actually acts like a real soldier?

 

[Dr.Dude]

It'd be an issue for me if a move actually did adapt more from Ultimate than they did from 616 --- but as of yet, this hasn't happened.

Now adapting elements from the Ultimate comics isn't a problem at all; a movie, such as X-Men for example, should take elements from all the adaptions of the character, be they comics, cartoons, Ultimate, etc. It all depends on the elements being adapted, really, and whether they stay true to the core of the character.

 

[Darthphere]

Ultimate Cap sucks, nuff said its comic books, I dont care which is more realistic. 616 Cap is a much better and far more interesting character.

 

[ScarletSpider]

I actually prefer Ultimate Cap to 616 Cap, he's just more intersting and a more enjoyable read for me personally. Though I do like 616 Cap too.

Iceburgeruk: How is Cap any of those things?

 

[avpmaster132004]

couldnt we have an ultimate cap look with a 616 personality?

 

[Darthphere]

I dont have a problem with the look. I like Ultimate Cap's look for a movie better anyway, I just dont want him to be played like Ultimate Cap.

 

[CConn]

Personally, I prefer Ultimate Cap as I think he represents both the great qualities and the great failings of his generation. And generally, the failings come off rather hilariously.

616 Cap is little more than what an American from his time should've been - not necessarily was - and for that, I dunno, Superman is just as good of an interpretation.

They're both two of my favorite characters, don't get me wrong - and I haven't read most of Ultimates 2 yet, so I can't speak for his characterization in that series - but to see that those flaws as well as that American Dream inside the man is refreshing. I like it.

 

[Darthphere]

If acting like a dick for no reason is an American ideal sure.

 

[CConn]

Did you even read what I said? I said he encompasses the failings as well as the ideals of that generation of Americans. I would think it would be obviously the acting like a dick part would be one of the failings rather than one of the ideals.

I mean, take for instance in Ultimates 1 where, after learning of Giant-Man's attack on his wife, he effectively steals a SHIELD copter, locates Giant-Man on GPS, kicks his ass, then comes back to, eventually, charm Giant-Man's wife away from him. That's just classic American Machismo. Is it right? No. Is it PC? No. But it is, to me at least, extremely enjoyable to read.

 

[Darthphere]

Did you even read what I said? I said he encompasses the failings as well as the ideals of that generation of Americans. I would think it would be obviously the acting like a dick part would be one of the failings rather than one of the ideals.

I mean, take for instance in Ultimates 1 where, after learning of Giant-Man's attack on his wife, he effectively steals a SHIELD copter, locates Giant-Man on GPS, kicks his ass, then comes back to, eventually, charm Giant-Man's wife away from him. That's just classic American Machismo. Is it right? No. Is it PC? No. But it is, to me at least, extremely enjoyable to read.

I get that some people would get enjoyment out of seeing something like that, but lets be honest, in the state the world is right now is that the right attitude to show off to the world? I really could care less but I just think 616 Cap is someone you can actually look up to and respect while Ultimate Cap is more of a "bad boy" type that everyone wants to hang out with.


By the way, that was a kickass scene.

 

[Joker]

if you're basing your opinion off of some BS PC thing of "what we should be showing the world" you're totally missing the point. 616 Cap is the american ideal, what we all want our country to be like, yes, but it is a one note character of "Yes, I'm always on the side of good and right, and never make mistakes!" which gets boring after a while...Ultimate Cap isn't perfect, and is in fact very, very flawed, yet still manages to be a hero despite those failings...

 

[CConn]

I get that some people would get enjoyment out of seeing something like that, but lets be honest, in the state the world is right now is that the right attitude to show off to the world?

I don't think "oh my, what will so and so think?" should ever enter into a writer's mind while creating a story,

I really could care less but I just think 616 Cap is someone you can actually look up to and respect while Ultimate Cap is more of a "bad boy" type that everyone wants to hang out with.

See, there's where we differ. I see Ultimate Cap as both the "bad boy" type and someone to look up to. To believe in, really. That's why I prefer him a bit over 616, cause you (or rather I) get both; I can get this inspiration figure I can look up to, and this old fashioned tough guy that says things like "Parachutes are for girls". As the Joker said, there's a bit more depth to him.

By the way, that was a kickass scene.

Oh def.

 

[Darthphere]

Im not saying writers should be thinking about that im just saying in a world where Wolverine the ultimate badass cries at least once in every X-Men movie, it doesnt seem like thats a route they would go with and necessarily movie-goers want to see, I could be wrong.

I always seen Ultimate Cap as satire, considering Millar, extremely liberal writes the book it just seems like he writes him like the ultra conservative. I always tohught he made him that way on purpose and some of his comments in that regard show that. I cant deny the character has depth though, the scene in #8 I think when he goes to Bucky and hugs him because jan is a dirty **** was very touching. The man has heart thats for sure.

Personally, the differences are minute but ill always prefer 616 Cap to Ultimate Cap.

 

[Ben Breeck]

I see the differences between 616 and Ultimate Cap being the differences in the amount and substance of experience each has had since waking up.

Remember, 616 Hank and Janet didn't start really start getting it on (in the Judge Mills Lane sense) until at least six years after Cap defrosted, Marvel time. 616 Cap has seen the Civil Rights movement in full flower (okay, really just the tail end of that) rather than it's fruit. 616 Cap actually investigated Watergate, and was fired when he saw what happened during Iran-Contra and refused to play ball. More recently, he discovered that SHIELD technology had been traded, possibly on Nick Fury's watch, to an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist group for some undisclosed quid pro quo.

Ultimate Cap hasn't experienced that sort of moment of moral choice, yet. So far, all he has seen of any sort of "other side of the story" are the "Liberators" who as a group are at least as "unreliable wittnesses" as the official story, and possibly (If he was thawed out early enough) Magneto's Brotherhood. Cap is carefully placed by his handlers so that the worst of any wartime profiteering, torture and humiliation of (innocent) prisoners, or problems with civillians are things he doesn't actually see firsthand. Right now, the only guy who may be able to give Ultimate Steven Rogers that moment of relampago is (pardon the pun) Thor. Unfortunately everyone, especially Cap, regards him as a fruitcake (mostly because he is).

However, eventually he will find something very wrong at work, something that rather than being a minor abberation, is Standard Opperating Procedure, or worse Business As Usual. It could start when he asks himself what sort of blackmail leverage his Canadian amnesiac former squadmate has on his boss that his boss would then not put three mutants in jail for springing Magneto. It could start when an order mixup sends him into the field to kill an innocent instead of someone like Ultimate Hawkeye.

It is only after he is forced to make that choice, that we really find out what sort of human being he is. He could then start to converge on 616 Cap. He could eat a bullet (or if his sense of honor/guilt is too strong, punish himself in a more brutal and painful way unto death). He could become the monster everyone says Millar is writing him as, (Especially as in this way he is conciously choosing to be him). He could even become an amalgamation of the Denny O'Niell Green Arrow and the Punisher, a "V" for America, as it were.

But until he is forced to make that decision and then chooses, it is impossible to truly know what Ultimate Steven Rogers stands for.

I do hope Jeph Loeb, given his comments about the nature of patriotism, is not the one to actually force Ultimate Cap to choose. (Besides, I have just such a storyline plotted out. It's a subplot to an "Ultimate Kang" storyline. [And no, Ultimate Kang is not what's wrong with Ultimate Marvel America.])

 

[CConn]

Im not saying writers should be thinking about that im just saying in a world where Wolverine the ultimate badass cries at least once in every X-Men movie, it doesnt seem like thats a route they would go with and necessarily movie-goers want to see, I could be wrong.

I always seen Ultimate Cap as satire, considering Millar, extremely liberal writes the book it just seems like he writes him like the ultra conservative. I always tohught he made him that way on purpose and some of his comments in that regard show that. I cant deny the character has depth though, the scene in #8 I think when he goes to Bucky and hugs him because jan is a dirty **** was very touching. The man has heart thats for sure.

Personally, the differences are minute but ill always prefer 616 Cap to Ultimate Cap.

Every time you get into this debate, you seem to start out with "Ultimate Cap sucks!" and end up with "Personally, I'm just one for 616 Cap." Why not just start out with the latter statement, and save yourself the trouble?

I do agree Ultimate Cap is partially satire, though. That's what I mean in my opening post when I said some of the things he does are hilarious. He is, IMO, satire done right...as apposed to, lets say, All Star Batman.

 

[Tangled Web]

616 Captain America > Ultimate Captain America

616 show this country in it's finest hour and how that spirit lives in this day and age.
Ultimate Cap in cynical. Ultimate crap.

 

[Chris Wallace]

When you say 616 Cap, are you talking about that guy who rebelled against the Registration Act & started an underground resistance because he believed infringing on freedoms is wrong?
American IDEAL means that you do what's right regardless of whatyou're told or who tells it.

 

[Darthphere]

Yes/

 

[Chris Wallace]

The thing about Cap is that he was created to embody the American ideal, sure. And now he's out of place-out of his time. The government that he pledged himself to, that he believes in so strongly would never do something like the registration Act, which is more or less the tights & capes version of the Patriot Act. He's a relic, yes, but he's SUPPOSED to be. He remembers how things used to & in a lot of ways should be. That's what he's fighting for. He's a patriot in the true sense of the word. He loves this country so much he'll protect it from anything-even itself. He's Captain America, not Captain Government.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Now as for the original question, I don't really see where movies are basing their plots on Ultimate, considering that the only characters that have an ongoing book in the Ultimate line are Spider-Man, the X-Men, the Avengers, & FF. The only real similarity between Ultimate FF & the movie is Doom's origin. Ultimate X-men was based on the movie, not the other way around. And SPider-Man went into production before we ever saw an Ultimate ANYTHING.

 

[CConn]

The thing about Cap is that he was created to embody the American ideal, sure. And now he's out of place-out of his time. The government that he pledged himself to, that he believes in so strongly would never do something like the registration Act, which is more or less the tights & capes version of the Patriot Act. He's a relic, yes, but he's SUPPOSED to be. He remembers how things used to & in a lot of ways should be. That's what he's fighting for. He's a patriot in the true sense of the word. He loves this country so much he'll protect it from anything-even itself. He's Captain America, not Captain Government.

I don't think any of us were arguing the legitimacy of 616 Cap's beliefs. I mean, I'm glad he went against the registration act, and while some of his characterization may suck *coughNA #20cough*, he's still as much Captain America as he ever was.

I just think Ultimate Cap is a wee bit more interesting.

 

[Philly Phanboy]

Is it usually a bad idea when a Marvel movie takes it's story more from the Ultimate universe instead of the 616 universe?

Most of their recent movies aren't 100% based in either. The writers may have taken aspects familiar with both but generally the movies are a unique "universe".

 

[Chris Wallace]

I don't think any of us were arguing the legitimacy of 616 Cap's beliefs. I mean, I'm glad he went against the registration act, and while some of his characterization may suck *coughNA #20cough*, he's still as much Captain America as he ever was.

I just think Ultimate Cap is a wee bit more interesting.

Why? Because he's a jerk? Because he carries a rifle?