Civil War Was Cap being able to hold his own in battle against Iron Man believable to you?

[See Cap Run]

I heard the occasional concern before the movie came out that it wouldn't be believable for Cap to be able to hold his own in a fight against Iron Man due to the difference in their respective power levels.

Now that the film's been released we can discuss this in greater detail.

For me personally, on the issue, I think the Russos and everyone involved did a great job making it believable and there weren't any moments that took me out of the movie. It helped that not only was Bucky there to assist Cap in certain key moments when Tony was getting the upper hand, but also that they were in an enclosed space so Tony couldn't fly up and attack from the air which would have given him a near-insurmountable advantage.

What are your thoughts and how do they compare to how you felt on the issue before the film's release? Vote and discuss!

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

No. Spider-man either. But it was his movie.

 

[Infinity9999x]

For the logic the film set up, yeah it was fine for me.

First, this Cap has been shown to be MUCH stronger than his 616 and Ultimate counterparts (dude curled a helicopter trying to lift off for pete's sake), and Iron Man was shown to be severely compromised in his armor and was fighting with a broken arm. Not only that, but I never got the sense he was trying to kill Steve, only Bucky.

So at the end of the day, yeah it worked for me.

 

[See Cap Run]

For the logic the film set up, yeah it was fine for me.

First, this Cap has been shown to be MUCH stronger than his 616 and Ultimate counterparts (dude curled a helicopter trying to lift off for pete's sake), and Iron Man was shown to be severely compromised in his armor and was fighting with a broken arm. Not only that, but I never got the sense he was trying to kill Steve, only Bucky.

So at the end of the day, yeah it worked for me.

Indeed. Also, Cap was a smart enough fighter to damage Stark's repulsor boot so as to limit his flight capability.

 

[See Cap Run]

No. Spider-man either. But it was his movie.

For me it was convincing enough with Spider Man since Cap is much more experienced in combat.

Could they have done something different in the fights to make it more believable to you or do you feel that Cap would never be able to hold his own against Iron Man or Spider-Man under any circumstances?

 

[JOE]

No. Spider-man either. But it was his movie.

They each had their moments in the fight, Spider-Man didn't beat him by any means. If anything Cap had the edge in total.

 

[Infinity9999x]

They each had their moments in the fight, Spider-Man didn't beat him by any means. If anything Cap had the edge in total.

And what I think people keep forgetting is that movie Cap is seriously beefed up from any other iteration of Cap we've seen. His strength is on Par with Spider-man's, something he never had before.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

And what I think people keep forgetting is that movie Cap is seriously beefed up from any other iteration of Cap we've seen. His strength is on Par with Spider-man's, something he never had before.

This. That goes for Winter Soldier too, who has powers basically equal to Cap and was also involved in the fight. Iron Man, meanwhile, is toned down powerwise from the comics version, was disadvantaged by the fight being in a relatively enclosed space, and had prior injuries going into the fight.

Given their power levels and that the surrounding circumstances were very much in Cap's favor, I had no problem with it at all.

 

[Infinity9999x]

This. That goes for Winter Soldier too, who has powers basically equal to Cap and was also involved in the fight. Iron Man, meanwhile, is toned down powerwise from the comics version, was disadvantaged by the fight being in a relatively enclosed space, and had prior injuries going into the fight.

Given their power levels and that the surrounding circumstances were very much in Cap's favor, I had no problem with it at all.

Exactly. And IM was in a situation where he was only trying to be lethal with one of his aggressors. He was very disadvantaged.

It fulfilled comic book movie logic enough for me to be okay with it.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Exactly. And IM was in a situation where he was only trying to be lethal with one of his aggressors. He was very disadvantaged.

It fulfilled comic book movie logic enough for me to be okay with it.

Iron Man would have won if he was willing to kill Cap. He had him at his mercy.

 

[metaphysician]

Fight was fine to me. Tony was facing two opponents, in confined quarters, with existing injuries, and in a state that might generously be called "irrational". And in turn, Steve and Bucky exploited this, in taking several opportunities to damage his suit along the way.

 

[seriesofdreams]

Tony had everything going against him in the fight. 2 against 1 with a compromised suit of armor. Bucky is Cap except the arm the bionic arm puts him up a notch strength-wise, but Cap is arguably the best hand-to-hand fighter in the MCU. Close quarters and with the vibranium shield.

The fight was totally believable and you could see plain as day Iron Man taking damage up and through the final fight sequence. Not to mention he was pulling his punches (so to speak) most of the time.

I don't see how hard it is to not believe any of it.

 

[ThePhantasm]

It was believable to me. I actually found the big airport fight a bit less believable, though well executed.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Iron Man would have won if he was willing to kill Cap. He had him at his mercy.

Yep. And Cap took advantage of that fact.

 

[Lantern Venom]

For me it was convincing enough with Spider Man since Cap is much more experienced in combat.
?

This. That goes for Winter Soldier too, who has powers basically equal to Cap and was also involved in the fight. Iron Man, meanwhile, is toned down powerwise from the comics version, was disadvantaged by the fight being in a relatively enclosed space, and had prior injuries going into the fight.

Given their power levels and that the surrounding circumstances were very much in Cap's favor, I had no problem with it at all.

These are the reasons that the combat worked. The circumstances and environment assured that it was Cap's kind of fight. That's why FRIDAY told Tony, "You can't beat him hand-to-hand." Even in his armor, Tony would always lose a straight slugfest with Steve. Had the fight been in an open area with no Bucky to further tip the scales in Cap's favor, Iron Man has a clear advantage.

 

[Loki882]

Yes imo:

-Cap and WS are much stronger in the films than their comic book counterparts.
-IM was already injured from the airport battle not long before (his arm was in a sling, which he simply removed when putting on the armor, that doesn't mean that it was actually HEALED by that point).
-He was essentially fighting out of rage/anger, so he wasn't thinking completely logically.
-Cap disabled one of his repulsor boots, so he couldn't fly at 100% capacity.
-They were fighting in a relatively smaller/enclosed underground bunker, so he couldn't maneuver around as well as he usually does anyway.
-He wasn't trying to kill Cap, so he was holding back on that front.

And finally, it STILL took TWO supersoldiers (who both also have military training/combat experience as well) working together to BARELY eek out a win. And even then, it took Cap taking advantage of Tony getting distracted (by stopping to turn around and kick Bucky) to blindside him. And Bucky lost his mechanical arm in the process of the battle (plus Cap looked pretty tired/beat up as well by the end).

Really it seemed like the film went out of it's way to give multiple plausible justifications for Tony losing that fight.

 

[Loki882]

It was believable to me. I actually found the big airport fight a bit less believable, though well executed.

I kind of wish that at least one of two of Cap's other teammates would have escaped (and it'd have been more belivable imo). I get that the climax had to come down to just Tony vs. Steve and Bucky, but there were better ways to do that imo than just "Cap's ENTIRE team somehow got caught offscreen, without actually doing all that much really."

 

[T"Challa]

yes it was believable. For the sole reason that Tony was never trying to kill Steve, and that levels the playing field quite a bit in terms of what they can do to each other.

 

[See Cap Run]

For me it was convincing enough with Spider Man since Cap is much more experienced in combat. ?

With the post I made above, I was responding to a post that Cap holding his own against Spider-Man wasn't believable to said person, giving my opinion on why it was believable to me.

 

[metaphysician]

I don't see anything even vaguely wrong with Cap holding his own against Spider-man. Spidey seems to have a physical edge, but its nowhere near the vast thing it is in the comics. Marginal strength and speed advantage can be more than compensated for via superior skill and experience ( and possibly durability, though that is vaguer ).

( Unlike, again, the comics, where the physical differential is so vast that skill and experience really shouldn't matter. All the skill in the world doesn't really matter when the other guy perceives you in slow motion the whole time. )

 

[Batmannerism]

Totally made sense, for a number of reasons.

1) The tools: Let's face it, MCU Cap is superhuman. He does stuff and takes hits that would kill a human being (even with peak strength, agility, durability). He's not Superman or bulletproof, but he's not human. Plus he's got the perfect offensive/defensive weapon which can negate Tony's most powerful attacks.

As such, and using the shield he's easily got the strength, speed and the weapon to damage Tony's armour and hold his own.

2) The terrain: the final fight took place in close quarters, totally negating Tony's biggest mobility advantage, flight.

3) The combatants themselves: Was Tony really going to kill Bucky, maybe ?
Would he have killed Cap, not a chance. He's holding back, even when he uses the battle computer to out-fight Cap, he doesn't try to break Cap's neck or stomp on his head. Tony is not fighting to kill, and that means he's holding back, whereas Cap knows he has to cut loose at full force otherwise he's going to get squashed (and that feeds into my final point).


4) And finally, the fight itself was brilliantly scripted.... it was damn close, and this is why it was a much better fight than B v S because you actually aren't sure how, or even if Cap is going to come out on top (unlike the curb stomping we all knew Superman was going to get from Batman).

We see Tony's armour getting gradually more and more damaged, so we believe that Cap can actually win.

Because Tony clearly had more raw power at his command, and had effectively beaten Cap, it made sense for one tiny lapse in concentration (when Bucky grabs his foot) that allowed Cap to gain the upper hand and go for Tony's one vulnerable point -which he would have known, as he knows Tony and his tech.


In conclusion, Civil War totally delivered not just a good story and sound reason for these characters to be in conflict, but the way that conflict played out made total sense and was really entertaining and engaging - Zach Snyder should have been taking notes. Civil War was so good that it turned me (a hard core DC fan) from a Cap-hater, to someone who actually liked the MCU version of the character (and that's saying a lot).

Recipe for a successful superhero film, hype up a conflict between two characters to epic proportions, and then totally deliver on those expectations !

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Totally made sense, for a number of reasons.

1) The tools: Let's face it, MCU Cap is superhuman. He does stuff and takes hits that would kill a human being (even with peak strength, agility, durability). He's not Superman or bulletproof, but he's not human. Plus he's got the perfect offensive/defensive weapon which can negate Tony's most powerful attacks.

As such, and using the shield he's easily got the strength, speed and the weapon to damage Tony's armour and hold his own.

2) The terrain: the final fight took place in close quarters, totally negating Tony's biggest mobility advantage, flight.

3) The combatants themselves: Was Tony really going to kill Bucky, maybe ?
Would he have killed Cap, not a chance. He's holding back, even when he uses the battle computer to out-fight Cap, he doesn't try to break Cap's neck or stomp on his head. Tony is not fighting to kill, and that means he's holding back, whereas Cap knows he has to cut loose at full force otherwise he's going to get squashed (and that feeds into my final point).


4) And finally, the fight itself was brilliantly scripted.... it was damn close, and this is why it was a much better fight than B v S because you actually aren't sure how, or even if Cap is going to come out on top (unlike the curb stomping we all knew Superman was going to get from Batman).

We see Tony's armour getting gradually more and more damaged, so we believe that Cap can actually win.

Because Tony clearly had more raw power at his command, and had effectively beaten Cap, it made sense for one tiny lapse in concentration (when Bucky grabs his foot) that allowed Cap to gain the upper hand and go for Tony's one vulnerable point -which he would have known, as he knows Tony and his tech.


In conclusion, Civil War totally delivered not just a good story and sound reason for these characters to be in conflict, but the way that conflict played out made total sense and was really entertaining and engaging - Zach Snyder should have been taking notes. Civil War was so good that it turned me (a hard core DC fan) from a Cap-hater, to someone who actually liked the MCU version of the character (and that's saying a lot).

Recipe for a successful superhero film, hype up a conflict between two characters to epic proportions, and then totally deliver on those expectations !

Agreed with all of this. Great post Batmanmannerism.

 

[Solaire]

I'm a WWE fan so the fight reminded me of a match tbh. Iron Man went into the fight with a broken arm and a compromised suit and even with all that said he could have killed Cap about 10 times if he wanted to. The Russos pretty much showed how dangerous Iron Man is especially when he's angry and seeking vengeance.

I love the airport fight but the fight in the end is probably my favorite because we've never really seen angry Tony before. He was actually attempting to kill Bucky lol.

 

[scarlet-witch]

It was believable to me. Cap is a superior fighter over Tony, and even with his suit, Tony was emotionally compromised.

It doesn't bother me that MCU Cap seems to be stronger than his comic counterpart, I'm absolutely okay with his strength rivaling Spiderman's. (or at least coming close to it)

 

[Filmfan93]

Totally. Cap has one of the best hand-to-hand combat trainings in the MCU (if not the best) and besides, Tony was injured - his arm was broken. On top of that, Cap and Bucky are both supersoldiers. I think this was one of the best fights in the MCU, as it brilliantly showcased power levels. The Russos didn't de-power Iron Man. They just showed us how powerful Cap really is.