Was Optimus a little TOO brutal in this?

Discussion in 'Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen' started by terry78, Jun 25, 2009.

  1. Marvin Registered

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    um actually

    he may not have been holding back persay but with non militant bystanders nearby it could easily be argued that prime would rather try his best to stop the enemy without cause more damage himself and possibly taking a live or two of his own

    in the forest with no one around he went balls to the wall.

    example one

    do you think superman would tends to go balls out in the middle of the city even if it was life or death
    (superman 2)

    or is he more likely to go all out on the moon?
    where no one would die as a result of his actions

    for all this talk of how noble you think optimus is, one would think that would be your first inclination...not bays


    wolverine has a berserker mode when he fights, he pretty much goes all out and has no thought left of his own life
    many warriors have been portrayed to fight harder and more passionately when they are at deaths gates

    (see Boromir(sp) in LOTR)

    the minute optimus said "I'll take you all on," the considered that his end and without a populated city to tip to around you have optimus going balls deep :hehe:

    no matter what the stakes a good hero should be a good hero.

    this isn't punisher
     
  2. Mr. Earle Registered

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    Well when Prime beats a god with superpowers but finds difficulty tackling Megatron, my brain just cant take it. If you are ok with that inconsistency, suit yourself.
    You are only assuming that because Prime was a beast in ROTF, be it populated areas or whatnot. Bay simply wanted to please. "They are asking for more Prime. Lets do a Steven Seagul movie with robots!"

    The fate of the world was hanging in the balance and i bet that the battlefield would have be deserted by the end of the fight, and Megatron still wiped the flour with him. They are equals, it can go either way.
     
  3. Mr. Earle Registered

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    We barely got a glimpse of the fight but you re making assumptions. Prime lost one battle and then won the other, he must have been holding back. Well he saved those bystanders, but had it not been for Sam the world would have been lost. So i dont think he was holding back. He went berserk in the forest, but i dont think he held back in the city.

    The heroes often losing battles to their enemies but they win the war anyway. Get used to it.
     
  4. The Guard Registered

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    Inconsistency my ass. You just assume that because you think The Fallen should be an alien god, that he was intended to be portrayed as such in the film, and you assume he has a certain power level because of it. Not that the film shows ANY of those things.
     
  5. Mr. Earle Registered

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    No, its not like he could teleport and move huge objects at will. What the **** are you talking about? I seriously think that you are Bay himself or just pushing it to see how far you can take it.
     
  6. Marvin Registered

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    um, batman, atleast in the comics can trounce ninjas by the truck load, the same way any ninja turtle can handle a bus load of the foot clan

    the same way bruce lee can walk out of a japanese school with just a scratch on his face

    the narrative should be set up so the audience clearly understands that the protagonist hero is formidable.

    what's the point of "telling" the audience that batman is ra's best student and not "dramatizing"(showing) it.

    he didn't have to beat 30, lord knows that would have been another god send of cinematography from the nolan crew, but he could have actually done something to convey that he's far superior then anyone there and not just because he chooses to act

    batman is like the 4th best martial artist in the DCU for goodness sake

    that movie is full of that
    nolan telling us but never actually dramatizing with his camera

    I remember that scene when he was like, "the ninja can be invisible" and then you see this guy drop down from the ceiling...
    and nolan is considered the inventive filmmaker of today?

    he's supposed to be angry
    he's supposed to be smart
    he's supposed to be losing his grip of his morality

    all things said, but faintly shown

    he's supposed to have a care that can jump(but simply falls from roof to roof)

    thank goodness for TDK, and even then not so much...until the health ledger.

    but hey, it was a good film, I won't let my petty desires dictate the quality of the movie.

    -I would have loved to see jason bourne undress that school of ninjas, I know he wouldn't let me down.
     
  7. Marvin Registered

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    like I said, superman really doesn't ever cut loose in populated areas
    same as goku
     
  8. Mr. Earle Registered

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    Losing morality: Attempt to kill Chill.
    Angry: "My anger outweighs my guilt". Taking it out on Ducard when he is trying to make him face the truth. "anger doesnt change the fact that your father failed to act". Bruce was basically throwing random hits on him because of his anger.
    Smart: The way he passed his final test with Ras. Throwing the SWATs from the building in TDK, etc.
    It jumped from rooftop to rooftop. It jumped across the river to the Narrows at the end of BB. It jumped over a car in TDK.

    All in all, Nolan is a director. Bay isnt a director. He just shoots stuff with a camera. There is a difference. A director is an artist. And Bay is a child in a middle aged man's body. "Oooh look at those boobs!" That sort of thing.
     
    #233 Mr. Earle, Jul 4, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
  9. craigdbfan Registered

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    That doesn't mean that Prime wasn't holding back during the fight in Mission city. In fact it only reinforces it.

    So lets assume for a second that your insertion that Bay only did it to please was in fact correct. Bay chose to put Optimus in both instances where he kicks ass in rather deserted areas. That only solidifies the statement that Optimus only decides to use lethal combat when there is little life that could die or get injured.
     
  10. Mr. Earle Registered

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    Or that Megatron simply bested him as it often happens in the franchise.
     
  11. Lunar_Wolf WTF face

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    Optimus had two years of training on Earth with NEST, while Megatron laid dead in the ocean.
     
  12. Mr. Earle Registered

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    You mean to tell me that he learned martial arts or something? These robots are alive for thousands of years. 2 years is merely a second for them.
     
  13. Lunar_Wolf WTF face

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    2 years on Earth, learning different tactics with another intelligent race can help a lot. It's not about them learning martial arts or anything like that, but planning and learning when to be aggressive etc Many times throughout different incarnations, Autobots have learned from the human race in battle.
     
  14. Bren Forevernoob

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    Again, to what benefit of human life would it be for OP to hold back and lose the fight to Megatron? So it all goes to worst case scenario plan and Sam detroys the cube in OP's chest (killing him). Whoopie. So Megatron can't use it to create an army right? Great. But Megatron is still alive, and probably mighty cheesed off with humankind (Sam) for destroying the cube. So he's going to fly off to Saturn (or wherever) to mope? No, he's going to take out some bad feelings on the humans. What did OP's holding back to save a few lives accomplish?

    Ag (south african word for shrugging shoulders), maybe he did hold back, and he's just a useless 'leader'.

    Exactly how old are they??? Have they not been warring for thousands of years? So an entire 2 years turns OP from a capable but ultimately bad leader/fighter into bloody Rambo?
     
  15. Lunar_Wolf WTF face

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    Read my comment above.
     
  16. Bren Forevernoob

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    Still don't agree whatsoever; 6 incidents in 2 years (or did I hear wrong) versus much more experience gained in open warfare on Cybertron? I just don't see it.

    I will certainly agree with the belief that yes, one can sometimes be more effective in a fight if you are more ruthless and aggressive (as OP might have become in the 2 passing years). And that in the scale of power Megatron was miles ahead of EVERYONE, and that OP could beat the snot out of anyone besides him, and that in his revival Megatron is possibly weaker than he was previously.

    My issue is that some people claim he lost to Megatron (or that he lost so badly) because he held back. There was absolutely zero reason to hold back, considering the probable loss of human life had he lost.

    Then again, it's a Bay film and I'm making the mistake of trying to use reason???
     
    #241 Bren, Jul 4, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
  17. Lunar_Wolf WTF face

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    I don't think Prime held back in the first movie. It even came down to him killing himself to stop Megatron from getting the cube.
     
  18. Mr. Earle Registered

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    I have trouble believing that. If anything, those robots have been at war for thousands of years. Not their race. The robots themselves. Each one's experience surpasses the battle experience of the earth itself.

    Also, lets assume that he was holding back, when Megatron fuses his hands into a cannon, he shoots Prime across the street and onto a building. He then lands on the street and conveniently doesnt squash any humans. So you see, giving the upper hand to Megatron achieves nothing. It's a miracle... no its just plain movie magic than no one was killed.
     
  19. Bren Forevernoob

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    Okay cool - I was disagreeing with Dark_B and Craigd...
     
  20. Lunar_Wolf WTF face

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    Doesn't mean they still don't have learning to do. It's evident from the film that it's benefiting them.
     
  21. Marvin Registered

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    as far as your examples go, more with the talking and less with the showing, raimi really took the material to the extreme with spiderman 2, for example, after that train scene, I doubt anyone is curious how strong spiderman is, after so many chances thrown away with MJ, no one doubts the sacrifice peter is making for her, after getting beaten up by willem defoe and yet still keeping his secret for harry's sake, you don't don't peters friendship and kind heart.
    that series(part 1 and 2) dramatize and not just tell the audience

    batman is supposed to be a very angry astudious, introverted person at the brink of insanity but with a great control of himself and even greater control of his public identity(the latter actually being done pretty well)

    all i seen was someone that told people he was angry, had a stiff upper lip and shouted at criminals when nolan said action...
    to really see what kinda man bruce grew into it's those quiet scenes that are most important, that's what miller and leob did so well
    when bruce is alone with alfred, he's supposed to be himself, the problem with begins is that he acts like a normal freaking person in those moments.
    making jokes and wanting to sleep more..:whatever:

    that should be him at his darkest.

    what final test did he pass? finding the real ducard in the middle of a fight simulation?
    this is maybe literature's top detective, and he's running around the city like a little girl at recess
    with fox and people handing him antidotes and inventions left and right

    the joe chill part is pre batman, and i guess ras taught him how to film filter and focus his rage, but still at what cost, a batman that smiles when no one is around..

    I came away from that movie wondering what makes batman so special apart from the money and the suit..
    his will to act?

    at least stark is a special person
    "stark built it in a cave"

    it was better in TDK
    but this isn't the place, batman has gotten enough press already.

    that depends on what you want to give a director credit for

    nolan has a great script in front of him, some of the greatest actors of our generation and the second biggest comic book character invented

    in begins, he simply sat there and pointed his camera
    (tdk is a bit different)

    I don't see how given the same resources someone like Fincher wouldn't knock it out of the park, with cooler lighting to boot.

    bay has a bad full of holes script and young pretty so so actors
    and hit and miss Ilm artists

    as for bay pointing his camera at boobies?
    how many boobie shots do you count when he in the military board rooms or president speeches?
    unlike nolan bays movies have material that allows for such a thing
    like miami drug cartel parties, or college dorms
    it's that simple.

    yet they are the only two directors to open 200 mill in 5 days with their sequels.

    go figure

    ..oh yea and as for the car?
    you could pull that roof scene off with a car that can't jump(and that's the problem)
    as for the bridge jump, I've seen nic cage do it with less

    again TDK was better
     
    #246 Marvin, Jul 4, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2009
  22. craigdbfan Registered

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    Or vice versa. This entire discussion ends in somewhat of a stalemate because none of us truly know the exact reason as to why Optimus kicked more ass in ROTF and Megatron did in TF1.

    All of these arguments are based on assumptions backed by examples from other Transformers mythology.
     
  23. Marvin Registered

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    sure there many possibilities

    but at what point is it not just lazy film making by having characters interact inconsistently

    personally i believe

    A. optimus was fighting to die, in the forest, not much choice when your out numbered by so many

    does anyone here think megatron was fighting to die in the forest?

    B. what good would saving so many be if optimus killed hundreds that he didn't need to in the end

    "wow optimus, I know the stakes were high but you destroyed half the planet in order to save the whole planet...when if you were a little more cautious you could have just saved the whole planet."
    :whatever:

    superman holds back when fighting in cities, no matter what the stakes.

    C. 2 years of fighting side by side with brave human soldiers could have inspired him to become a better soldier himself.
     
  24. craigdbfan Registered

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    Marvin I'm definitely on the same page with you.

    I'll choose to stick to the thought that Optimus was in fact holding back in Mission city as to not jeopardize the lives of the humans scattering all over the place. Hero's with values like Prime are willing to risk losing as long as they go down honorably while upholding their own ideology. Thats what makes a message resonate. Even in the face of complete annihilation, sticking to your beliefs instead of bending them is more important.

    Multiple heroic figures have shown this common attribute and Optimus isn't the exception.
     
  25. Marvin Registered

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    well said, when honor comes into play

    optimus definitely has better changes of winning in a forest

    um anyone here see a little film by the name of Superman 2
    he literally gives up when zod grabs a human hostage

    better story telling I suppose
     

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