watch the golden compass go to hell

[spideyboy_1111]

I don't get it. How can reading a fictional book change someone's religion?

Oh wait...

same way as watching a movie about gay cowboys turns you gay

 

[Kritish]

Seriously! I haven't seen back-pedalling like that since the Columbine school shootings happened and the band Slayer said they "weren't anti Jewish".

What? Slayer isn't anti-Semitic, the song "angel of death" is condemning Josef Mengel, not endorsing.

 

[Figs]

What? Slayer isn't anti-Semitic, the song "angel of death" is condemning Josef Mengel, not endorsing.

It's been awhile since I heard that particular song, so I looked up the lyrics. It in no way makes the notion that they are "condeming" him. The fact that they made a song about his actions as well as the typical "Yeah! Satan and Death rocks!!" I'm going with the notion that they backpedeled when they said that after Columbine.

As for Golden Compass, I'll check it out regardless if the anti religious views are in it or not.

 

[Lighthouse]

Anyone remember the Metalacolypse episode where Murderface is trying to go religious, so they go to the church of Atheism and the Agnostics protest outside and throw bottles inside the church?

 

[The Lizard]

I'll go see Golden Compass if the reviews are good enough.

With the exception of slinky Nicole Kidman, the trailers haven't really grabbed me.

 

[chaseter]

The CGI animals look dull and if I want to watch two bears fight I will go to the zoo and throw meat sauce on one of them.

 

[Kritish]

It's been awhile since I heard that particular song, so I looked up the lyrics. It in no way makes the notion that they are "condeming" him. The fact that they made a song about his actions as well as the typical "Yeah! Satan and Death rocks!!" I'm going with the notion that they backpedeled when they said that after Columbine.

As for Golden Compass, I'll check it out regardless if the anti religious views are in it or not.

Sickening ways to achieve
The holocaust

Praying for the end of
Your wide awake nightmare

Pathetic harmless victims
Left to die
Rancid angel of death

It's not a positive song.

 

[Transcended]

Punishing untold BILLIONS for the mistake of TWO people....a punishment served up by a God who is supposedly omniscient and perfectly just in his judgements.

That means that he KNEW that if he left access open to the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, that his two finite, imperfect creatures would rebel (because Free Will in combination with a lack of divinity MUST equal imperfection, no matter what) , and he let it happen anyway.

That means he wanted it to happen. That means, there was not Evil in the Universe, and he created it, because he wanted it, because he is the author of Evil, and yet he professes to be the ultimate arbiter of Good, and Love, and Mercy.

This right here proves you haven't read half as much as you claim, as this is probably the most common (and surface-level) argument you can make against Christianity, and has been addressed countless times, in many ways, by many people.

Come on, I've seen way more threatening arguments against Christian doctrine than this raised by Christians themselves.

 

[Mike_D202]

Okay, so conservative Roman Catholics and evangelicals condemn the film...but Bishops and religous leaders says its alright. Anything wrong with this picture?

Anyone who watches this crappy CGI needs to go to hell anyways. I saw the trailer

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Okay, so conservative Roman Catholics and evangelicals condemn the film...but Bishops and religous leaders says its alright. Anything wrong with this picture?

Anyone who watches this crappy CGI needs to go to hell anyways. I saw the trailer

Yeah, because trailers always feature finished CGI.

 

[Mike_D202]

Yeah, because trailers always feature finished CGI.

I saw the trailer last night attached to Beowulf. The movie is due out Friday.



If your movie is going to be 95% CGI, dont attach unfinished CGI to your FINISHED FINAL TRAILER. It wasnt a "teaser", it was the final trailer.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

This right here proves you haven't read half as much as you claim, as this is probably the most common (and surface-level) argument you can make against Christianity, and has been addressed countless times, in many ways, by many people.

I guess you didn't understand...that was the idea.
This is not a hermeneutics debate. There have been thousands of pages of "back-and-forth" on Christianity in countless threads before I ever encountered you on the Hype.
I was saying, at the most basic level, at a glance, the story is preposterous, right at it's simple core.

Yes, these problems have been addressed.
Problems in the theories of men who believe that George W. Bush is really a 4th dimensional Reptoid demon in disguise have been "addressed".
It doesn't mean the problems were resolved in a satisfactory way.

When a Christian is asked, "Why does God allow a man to anally rape his 3 year old son to death?
Why did he allow the Holocaust to befall his "chosen" people?
Why did he allow Nazis to perform autopsies on little girls while they were still alive, with no anesthesia?" (I won't even get into all the nightmarish suffering people have to endure that has NOTHING to do with choices, like, children born with horrible defects (remember, THEY did not choose to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil!), or natural disasters, etc.)

They invariably say, "Because, man has Free Will. If we didn't have Free Will, we would all be mindless automatons. If he just created/forced us to Love him, it wouldn't be real, because it wouldn't be our choice...so, we must be allowed to choose, and some choose Evil."...

...which is utter Hogwash.
If that were true, then none of us could have Free Will in Heaven, because we are told that there will be no more sin, death or suffering in Heaven.

Is that your idea of the Eternal reward?...that we all die, undergo the Judgement, and then are converted into mindless automatons, going through a meaningless routine of feigned worship without end?

If we retain Free Will, but are perfected to the point of being sinless, then there must be a supernatural conversion that takes place, and an omnipotent God could initiate that conversion for Adam and Eve, and all of us.
We are not only supposed to forgive those that wrong us when they are repentant. We are supposed to forgive them regardless of their attitude, and yet God doesn't live by his own commands, because OBVIOUSLY (since he botched the whole "Creation of Humanity-Thing and had to erase it all and do a "do-over", in The Great Flood, killing countless innocent animals and babies), imperfect beings are going to have limited perception, and sometimes have trouble even BELIEVING in an entity that can not be seen or heard, and are going to, we'll say, "mistakenly" ignore God, or reject God......so, a loving, merciful, forgiving, paternal God would KNOW that, and, just as lowly human Fathers do, F.O.R.G.I.V.E. T.H.E.M.

In that way, the Christian idea that salvation is "a free gift" that can not be earned, is also malarky, because it IS a test of merit.....a test to determine, who is the most gullible/trusting, who is good enough to obey, and "perceptive" enough to believe, out of hundreds of options, the "RIGHT" religion, the "RIGHT" cosmology.

And, we are NOT given a choice. If a man puts a gun to the back of your head, and says, "Do exactly as I say, or I'll blow your brains out." that is not a choice.
He can say, "Hey! *shrug* They didn't HAVE to do exactly as I say. They could CHOOSE to defy me.........but then, yeah, I'll have to kill them."

HE is making the rules. Any sadistic consequences (like HELL?) are of HIS design.
He CREATED the Lake of Fire for the Devil and his angels. He should have the power to forgive the LOT of us, for making the wrong choices, instead of CREATING us as sinful, stupid creatures from BIRTH, and THEN holding US accountable for it.

Which brings us to the insanity of creating Lucifer, knowing full well the entire time that he'd rebel AND deceive more ignorant creatures, and resolving that he must be destroyed.................uh..........................
...............someday.

If I lock you in a room, and then let a starving lion into the room with you, and then shoot the lion, I did not "SAVE YOU FROM THE LION".
I put you in peril in the first place!

And yes, these are just the stupidities on the very SURFACE.
The deeper you go, the more damning the inconsistencies, contradictions, mistakes and laughable plot holes become.



Finally, please, even in PM's....I'm begging you, a Christian, if these problems are so easily dismissed, and so simply explained away...for the sake of my soul, instead of waving your "My library card is bigger than your library card" attitude in the air, please, by all means, enlighten me.

I am not interested in refuting Christians as much as I am interested in the ultimate "Truth" and ensuring a Happy Ending for myself, seriously.
All of my family and one of my best friends are staunch Christians and we've had 8 hour debates and discussions about this stuff, scores of times if not hundreds, for decades, and they are really intelligent people, but it ALWAYS comes down to, "Yeah, I have a lotta problems with some of this stuff, but....I believe it, anyway."

 

[Manosman]

I love religious debates! First I was raised Catholic, my whole family is Catholic, I've received 4 of the 7 sacraments (I'm not married, not a priest, and not on my death bead), I'm a Godfather, and was sponsor for a confirmation student.

I'm a non-practicing catholic, which is what i guess they call us now a days, I only go to church on easter and christmas, only because I'm with my parents on those dates and kind of just tag along.

I consider myself an agnostic, (not that a title really matters to me, just so everyone knows where im coming from, no god, but maybe) all the years of going to catholic school and church during my childhood turned me off to the whole religion thing. So in a sense the church turned me off from religion, not a movie.

Whatever a person believes is fine with me, doesn't matter, as long as they dont harm me physically in anyway over what they believe.

I personally believe that religion as a organized belief system is a man made way to try to control others, and has been doing this since its conception. With that said, if there is a god, we as humans do not have the mental capacity to understand or comprehend what it is. I believe Jesus was a great prophet, who did a lot of good, not necessarily the son of God.

I remember after seeing the da vinci code that some protester told me that i was going to hell for watching the movie, and I told him that he was sinning by judging me and only the god he believes in is capable of judging. I just think its silly that hard core religious fanatics, thinking they are doing good, are actually doing the opposite. Who are they to judge?

The way i see it, do some research, read some things other than the bible, and make up a decision for yourself. if you want to be a christian, jewish, muslim, a scientologist, an atheist, etc. that is all fine with me.

I just think its humorous that these people get all bent out of shape about a movie when there are a lot of worse things going on in the world that need attention. If they attack this movie/book series, they should be attacking 90% of the movies/books being produced today. Lustful Sex, Violence, Swearing, pretty much any of the "7 deadly sins" are present in every movie thats over G. I'll stop rambling now.

those "crazy" christians should take a step back and ask themselves, "what would jesus do?" hehe

 

[Holly]

someone give Wilhelm a happy ending

 

[Mike_D202]

I think theres a small place in china-town that promises that.

 

[BigBad]

GC looks a pretty good film looking forward to it tommorow

 

[ActuallyRobin]

seeing it sunday, can't wait to go to hell!

 

[C.F. Kane]

Reviews I've heard are pretty blah. Shame. The movie wasn't atheist enough.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

It's funny that this movie is getting bad reviews. It's like Manhunt 2, there was such a big deal made about the game, but in the end it was just a bad game and didn't deserve the attention because it would've slipped through the cracks just because of that. I think it's hilarious when people protest these movies or games that are just plain badly made, but drum up the publicity because it challenges their beliefs, all their going to do is help it become a success.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

It's funny that this movie is getting bad reviews. It's like Manhunt 2, there was such a big deal made about the game, but in the end it was just a bad game and didn't deserve the attention because it would've slipped through the cracks just because of that. I think it's hilarious when people protest these movies or games that are just plain badly made, but drum up the publicity because it challenges their beliefs, all their going to do is help it become a success.

Hahaha, I know.
It's like when they first censored the name of the cooler off-shoot site...I went from getting 1 PM asking for a link to it, to like 15 over night, from people who wouldn't've given a section of rat-ass before. LL

 

[Lackey]

*** ************ lesbianslumberparty.com

 

[Hobgoblin]

Perhaps they should all meet somewhere to discuss it...then we can firebomb the whole damn building.

I second that.

 

[Transcended]

If we retain Free Will, but are perfected to the point of being sinless, then there must be a supernatural conversion that takes place, and an omnipotent God could initiate that conversion for Adam and Eve, and all of us.

There is so much that could be said about your statements, but with this one, you almost answer your own questions. You're getting closer. A supernatural transformation does occur. And perhaps an omnipotent God could have initiated that conversion for Adam and Eve the moment they chose to sin, so that we'd all be spared, and everything would be hunky-dory.

He didn't, obviously. So there must be a "why" to his methods. The following are the two most notable (and dividing) articulations of this "why":

Anselm's Cur Deus Homo makes the argument that Christ's death was the only possible way to atone mankind; that any other method, employed by God, would have been insufficient to "make satisfaction" for sin. Now, I realize this makes most people go "but nothing is impossible for God! he can do whatever he wants!" Yes and no. God, by nature, cannot be contradicted. As such, he cannot simply co-exist with a sinful creation, "forgetting" about their imperfections; only one thing can MAKE him forget (or more appropriately, see past these imperfections), and that is... Himself.

We get metaphysically weird here, and if I went into more detail about the hyper-personal nature of the trinity it might make this more understandable, but ultimately, the point is: if anything can move God, would it not be God Himself (in this case, in the form of His Son)? In a sense, only He could change Himself; thus Christ was the only one who had the capacity to change the whole relationship between God and man.

Now, this is one perspective. Abelard (Anselm's student, ironically enough) would say the opposite: that God could have atoned us some way other than by sending Christ, but he CHOSE to send Christ for several reasons: (1) God becoming a human being allowed him to undergo the same exact types of pain that we do in our daily lives, and more - no man has been tempted or has suffered to the level Christ has, and thus no man can say that God "doesn't know how I feel." As a pure expression of love, God came so that we might not only see how he empathizes with US, but that we might be able to empathize with HIM. And thus, become even closer to him. (2) Because God didn't have to send His Son to die (and because Jesus himself could have chosen NOT to die), the utterly voluntary nature of this act makes the love expressed through it unconditional, untied to our own actions. The freedom this choice was made in displays the abandon with which God loves mankind.

Thus, to Abelard's mind, what atones us is merely viewing this "supreme example of self-sacrifing love." Christ's life and death awakens in us a true love for God – which has several consequences. This love makes us aware of our sin, stays our desire for it, and resultantly makes us repentant; and it is the repentant heart that allows us to approach, and fellowship with, God.

You see, in both cases, the ultimate object of atonement is not just to RESTORE the broken relationship between man and God, but to establish a new one.

Why didn't God just establish this new relationship/covenant in the first place? That again is tied up in His nature, and his reasons for creating humanity at all. I'll bypass this particluar discussion for the moment - if you want me to delve into it by PM or somesuch, let me know.

We are not only supposed to forgive those that wrong us when they are repentant. We are supposed to forgive them regardless of their attitude, and yet God doesn't live by his own commands, because OBVIOUSLY (since he botched the whole "Creation of Humanity-Thing and had to erase it all and do a "do-over", in The Great Flood, killing countless innocent animals and babies), imperfect beings are going to have limited perception, and sometimes have trouble even BELIEVING in an entity that can not be seen or heard, and are going to, we'll say, "mistakenly" ignore God, or reject God......so, a loving, merciful, forgiving, paternal God would KNOW that, and, just as lowly human Fathers do, F.O.R.G.I.V.E. T.H.E.M.

He does. But sinning against God is different than wronging a fellow human being. The two things are incomparable (except at the most base level).

Besides, if any forgiveness is limited, it is ours. We fail to forgive in full over, and over again. And we would never forgive someone who had wronged us in a particularly horrifying way - a rapist, someone who murdered a loved one, to get quite extreme. If we have any hope of forgiving them, we must ask for God's help. Because God can, and does. If anything, people I talk to are more put off by this notion than by anything else in Christianity - that a "point of no return" doesn't exist, even for the lowest of the low. All can be saved. Even the wretches.

In that way, the Christian idea that salvation is "a free gift" that can not be earned, is also malarky, because it IS a test of merit.....a test to determine, who is the most gullible/trusting, who is good enough to obey, and "perceptive" enough to believe, out of hundreds of options, the "RIGHT" religion, the "RIGHT" cosmology.

I believe God knows and judges the heart, and that he doesn't require textbook knowledge of Him and of Christ as a prerequisite for salvation. I am reminded of the scene in CS Lewis' The Last Battle:

"Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?' I said, 'Lord, thou knowest how much I understand.' But I said also (for truth constrained me), 'Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days.' 'Beloved,' said the Glorious One, 'unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.'"

Hardwired in every human being is the truth. Someone who is truly striving to know and serve that truth, even if they do not know its name, is judged by their heart and intent, not their cognitive knowledge.

And, we are NOT given a choice. If a man puts a gun to the back of your head, and says, "Do exactly as I say, or I'll blow your brains out." that is not a choice.
He can say, "Hey! *shrug* They didn't HAVE to do exactly as I say. They could CHOOSE to defy me.........but then, yeah, I'll have to kill them."

HE is making the rules. Any sadistic consequences (like HELL?) are of HIS design.
He CREATED the Lake of Fire for the Devil and his angels. He should have the power to forgive the LOT of us, for making the wrong choices, instead of CREATING us as sinful, stupid creatures from BIRTH, and THEN holding US accountable for it.

It is a choice. And like your illustration, it should be a simple one. A man should not want his brains blown out, correct? But yet, the amazing part is, some do. Some people truly want nothing to do with God. And that is the Biblical definition of hell - complete and total separation from God. So when people turn from Him, they're getting exactly what they want. A life without God.

The Great Divorce is an interesting depiction of this very dilemma. The people in hell want to be there, and given the option to leave refuse to leave, because their will has literally collapsed in upon itself. Apart from God, they experience an existence that is less than existence. They have become less human - incapable of even wanting what the human heart desires (reconciliation with its creator).

God created hell - literally the trashbin of the universe - out of necessity, because he could not coexist with the evil that had been brought into the universe. Think of it as a cosmic rift created by the very introduction of evil. God didn't necessarily create it because he wanted to, but because it was the natural "effect" of this conflict. Like two magnets repelling each other. God literally repels Satan out of the realm of existence: outside of Himself. And what is anything without God? Hell.

And we were not "sinful, stupid creatures" from birth. We were created in God's image, after all. Eden was perfect. We made ourselves sinful and stupid.

Which brings us to the insanity of creating Lucifer, knowing full well the entire time that he'd rebel AND deceive more ignorant creatures, and resolving that he must be destroyed.................uh...................... ....
...............someday.

Yep. And he created all the people on Earth with the full knowledge that many of them would commit unspeakable evil, as well.

He must've thought the price was worth paying for the end result - a communion and relationship with his creation that is even closer than the one the angels have with him.

And yes, these are just the stupidities on the very SURFACE.
The deeper you go, the more damning the inconsistencies, contradictions, mistakes and laughable plot holes become.

Or in my case, the more interesting and revealing they become. Believe me, I've asked all these questions before.

Finally, please, even in PM's....I'm begging you, a Christian, if these problems are so easily dismissed, and so simply explained away...for the sake of my soul, instead of waving your "My library card is bigger than your library card" attitude in the air, please, by all means, enlighten me.

I have attempted to, but I'm sure I still won't change your mind. And let me make this clear: I have not posted with the intent of changing anybody's mind; I know that is impossible. I simply wanted to clear up many of the common misconceptions about my faith, and defend it against those who question its validity.

I am not interested in refuting Christians as much as I am interested in the ultimate "Truth" and ensuring a Happy Ending for myself, seriously.
All of my family and one of my best friends are staunch Christians and we've had 8 hour debates and discussions about this stuff, scores of times if not hundreds, for decades, and they are really intelligent people, but it ALWAYS comes down to, "Yeah, I have a lotta problems with some of this stuff, but....I believe it, anyway."

I'm glad to hear you are a Truth-seeker first and foremost. With that, at least, we are on the same page.

I have Christian friends that are also very intelligent and admit to having several problems with "this stuff" as well - but that's mostly because, despite being smart as hell, they simply haven't investigated these matters as thoroughly as possible. Heck, even I haven't exhausted all the information and argumentation and sheer thought available out there. I'm still digging and searching like anybody else. But what I've found has fascinated me, and I relish the opportunity to share it with others.

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." - CS Lewis

 

[ShadowBoxing]

That's a great post Transcended, very thorough and thought provoking. I've read much on the Bible, more from a philosophical/anthropological perspective. I'd be interested in some of these sources in which you've come to your conclusions though. Maybe you could suggest some books or essays?

 

[Addendum]

I just might see this movie. Of course, I'm going to have to read the books first.