"We Hurt The Ones We Love The Most"

Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by Lightning Strykez!, Jan 28, 2006.

  1. Lightning Strykez!

    Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    You didn't answer my question. It's not about how you would've started the franchise with Phoenix. The question was, how do you bring Dark Phoenix into Bryan's existing "Realism" universe?

    You can't make a new puzzle with only 2 pieces left to put in.
     
  2. cookiva

    cookiva Registered

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    These last 2 lines made me laugh my ass off!!! I mean, if he has been like that for years, then that is who he is, right? Then, you are mad that they portrayed him the way he is written??

    Oh, and maybe, since Wolverine is so popular (meaning hundreds of thousands like him), and you are of 4 in this fight, that you are the idiotic one? I mean, its like this. Im sure there are a few people out there who hate music, but does that mean that all of the rest of the world is stupid because of what those few idiots said? Nope...
     
  3. Kurosawa

    Kurosawa Registered

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    Nope, Cyclops is who is is in the comics from the 60's until about 1985. The past 20 years is just bad writing and the fact that Marvel pushes Wolverine down people's throats. Almost every character that he's encountered he's made them look bad.

    And yes, anyone who doesn't follow popular opinion is clearly an idiot.:rolleyes:

    Sorry, I think for myself. I always have.
     
  4. Lightning Strykez!

    Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    Um hmm.

    That'd be tantamount to FOX saying "Bryan Singer dumped us! So to hell with the X-Men franchise! We'll get back at him by not renewing any of the contracts and we won't make any more X-Men movies! We'll teach him to leave us for Superman!"

    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    PLEASE. Do you see how stupid that reads? Yet, some insinuate the same exact thing by saying that they're going to blow Scott away for filming another movie. Bah....poor reasoning IMO.
     
  5. Kurosawa

    Kurosawa Registered

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    Nope, Cyclops is written correctly in the comics from the 60's until about 1985. The past 20 years is just bad writing and the fact that Marvel pushes Wolverine down people's throats. Almost every character that he's encountered he's made them look bad.

    And yes, anyone who doesn't follow popular opinion is clearly an idiot.:rolleyes:

    Sorry, I think for myself. I always have.
     
  6. cookiva

    cookiva Registered

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    So, wait, almost half of his life is bad writing? Sounds like someone cant take change...
     
  7. Kurosawa

    Kurosawa Registered

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    It's hardly change. It's hackwork. Actually not ALL of the past 20 years has been written badly, but enough of it has.

    Either way, I'm sure you'd feel completely differently about this matter if it was a character you cared about getting killed off.
     
  8. cookiva

    cookiva Registered

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    Practically has happened. Iceman died in the movies.
     
  9. Kurosawa

    Kurosawa Registered

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    ??? I saw X2 and Iceman was alive in it.
     
  10. Cyclops

    Cyclops Registered

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    Regardless of how it's done, I will not see this movie if they really do kill Cyclops off. It's a waste of a good character that they wouldn't dare kill off if he was given the treatment he deserves from the first two films.
     
  11. cookiva

    cookiva Registered

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    Thats not Iceman....

    This is probably the first and last time I will complain about it though. Now, if Cyke had been portrayed as someone who cant handle himself in battle, weak, soft, and not in love with Jean, you would have cried bloody murder!!! I get a wisecracking, funloving teen shown as a stiff whiny runt. Hes not Iceman, hes his preppy cousin.
     
  12. Kurosawa

    Kurosawa Registered

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    At least the character is still alive. He's not been screwed over as bad as Cyke.
     
  13. cookiva

    cookiva Registered

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    Oh, but you see, Im not whining about it. All I hear from you is "oh, Im so mad at Fox. Im going to be a baby and boycott this film, even though Ill see it eventually." Dont lie. I said I would never see Mr. and Mrs. Smith, because I hate Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie seperatly, but them together would give me a heart attack. Well, you know what? I saw it. You will see it too. I know you are going to say something like "But Im not you, feeble minded one", and try to put me down like you did Lightning, but the fact of the matter is that you are being childish, as immature as you say Fox is...
     
  14. Lightning Strykez!

    Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    So do you believe he is being killed off due to studio politics? That's what some are claiming and to me it just doesn't make sense; it's not how the business works.

    And it's not like he's the only character that's rumored to die.
     
  15. Yellow Cyclone

    Yellow Cyclone Pessimist

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    jean coming back to life, and becoming phoenix, then the dark phoenix could be done without her vaporizing her husband...


    Magneto+Hellfire club baby



    we all know she pops outta the water at some point on her own....and the reason for this is that the machine at the end of X1 either a)"evolved" her powers or b)removed the professor's "locks"

    thus she has, at least to the audience, (and the professor b/c of the end of X2) the incredible power of cheating death (among other things)


    and in keeping with singer's established "real" universe rules:

    a) she could have amnesia

    b) she could wander around the regions/towns near alkali lake, looking for answers and even using her powers to help people to illustrate to the audience that she is indeed a good person

    c)sooner or later the professor/cerebro/magneto/the gov't will hear about this "uber mutant" doing all sorts of things and come to her...which group is insignificant as i'll explain

    d) if its the x-men who find her first, then she'll eventually be back in their ranks b/c test will be done, etc and they'll find out that she is "healthy" so to speak

    if the baddies find her first, then she gets busted out by the x-men, and taken back, and we're back to d) again

    e) as kuro said, if i could do the story, it'd be drawn out most likely an x3/x4 instead of one movie, so she'd be mostly coping with her powers in a slower method of story-telling....there'd be some hiccups along the way of course though; she could flirt with logan a little more in the open, she could flatout use cerebro better than the prof (something she was afraid of), she could be a little careless with her powers, but nothing too huge, and all the more subtle...

    f) sooner or later we get the "B" storyplot of the "cure" (which is a rehash imo)/sentinels...once again this really doesn't matter although you could make it the mcguffin and have it show up later in x4 if desired...whatever this "grave threat" is the x-men will have to deal with it in the end of the 2nd act/beginning of the 3rd....and this is were jean has her little accident with her powers

    somebody gets hurt/killed, innocents get burned, or whatever you pick your poison to be, it ends up demonstrating that all is not happy with jean

    g) towards the end you have the team and even jean questioning her own ablities; maybe she thinks they no longer understand her, arguments happen, things are said, ppl are hurt, yadda yadda yadda, she ends up running into magneto...and that is just to see his little group of friends, the hellfire club...

    hasn't anybody ever thought how/why magneto has his resources? his island fortress seems so cliche, even for a smart guy like singer/magneto...sure all his money could be from old-wealth, but that can only go so far...and calling his group the brotherhood, when it's only 4 ppl? kind of omnious, isn't it?

    why not have magneto a larger part of this larger shadow organization...now obviously the name hellfire is kinda cheesy for movies, so just call it the inner circle/brotherhood or whatever...the point is this is where singer excells at...

    so far the only real mutants we've seen in the movies have been pretty black and white: the good guys and the baddies...all these members of the circle (with magneto as their top dog), represent all parts of high, upper ecehlon types....CEOs, politicians, etc...everybody could be unique and each one could have their own agenda, many different from magento's...magneto keeps them around b/c we all know that he wants the war with humans to end with mutants on top, with him being the leader, but he's smart enough to know that he can't control everything by himself so he keep these guys around thinking he can control them in exchange for spots in his new world order

    they tolerate with magneto's stuff, for their shot at the top, or maybe they believe in his goal too....basically it could help demonstrate to the audience that ANYBODY in singer's real world could be a mutant...from the ugly morlock, to a fortune500 businessman, not just the x-men...it woulda been interesting to see what singer could have done with all these possibilites


    finally (thanks for bearing with me :p) maybe magneto's group with the help of one of their resident psychics could give her some "encouragement" to see their point of view, and of course then she goes all bad, yadda yadda, she's out of control and the x-men have to stop her & possibly a bigger threat in x4



    i never said that this was good, but at least i answered Lightning that this would be my take....i still do believe that the early hellfire rumors we have would have been much better than this forced crap that we're hearing about....plus my way doesn't have the newly resurrected goddess vaporizing her husband in the first act


    if i a lowly fan can come up with this crap in 5 min, then i'm sure a hollywood screenwriter who's getting paid by the truckload could have come up with something better....but alas i don't think we're going to get that in x3 :(
     
  16. Lightning Strykez!

    Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    I knew you'd come through Yellow; you always do. :cool: Well done. I'm not sure your theory would be quite as riveting as a vengeful murderess who doesn't know her own power--and accidentally kills the ones she loves...but it's well done nonetheless.:up:
     
  17. Cyclops

    Cyclops Registered

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    Politics? No. I think it's a cheap plot device to both get rid of a character in a full movie and to give Jean an excuse to go crazy.

    Which would never have happened if Cyclops had been allowed to become endeared to movie audiences as Wolverine, or if Marsden was as big-profile and pushy as Halle Berry is.

    Seriously, killing off the most important X-Man of them all to justify lunacy that, in all honesty, is unnecessary to get there (you'd think an INCREDIBLE power surge in telepathy and oh, COMING BACK FROM THE DEAD could do the trick to make one go nuts, but noooo...)

    All in all, I don't like it. Call me childish if you will, but I do not want to see my favorite character in all of comics reduced to a half-assed plot device. Forgive me for that.
     
  18. JP

    JP Smelly

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    Well, if Cyclops is worm food because he was under developed in the first two movies, then someone explain to me Xaviers demise. Reading through these past pages it seems that you think that the reason Scott dies is because he was doing Superman, and because he was never an important character.

    Well, Xavier has always been an important character. And guess what? Patrick Stewart isn't doing Superman. :eek:
     
  19. Cyclops

    Cyclops Registered

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    I'm just saying they'd never consider it if...

    1) The first two films gave him the chance to become endeared to audiences
    2) James Marsden was both as famous and pushy as Halle Berry. Let's be honest. She was the weakest link in the first two movies, yet she gets more screentime for it.

    As for Xavier potentially dying, well... he's the mentor. His death would have emotional impact. Cyclops's death? With the way he's been portrayed in the films, it would ellicit an "eh" from the audience for the most part.
     
  20. ts16

    ts16 Registered

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    I have to agree. Honestly, how much does the average movie goer know about Cyclops? that he's married or involved with Jean Grey, doesn't get along with Wolverine and that he Shoots optic beams from his eyes....thats pretty much it.
     
  21. cookiva

    cookiva Registered

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    See, I see it the exact opposite. I think, that with the right lead in, that it could be one of the most dramatic scenes in the franchise....
     
  22. ts16

    ts16 Registered

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    True, it all depends on if they flesh his character out before he bites the dust....if he bites the dust that is.
     
  23. Cyclops

    Cyclops Registered

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    Yeah, and it might turn out to be a flying dog turd.

    Remember people, this is the THIRD INSTALLMENT of a superhero franchise. And name me one third superhero movie that hasn't sucked. Superman 3... Batman Forever... Blade: Trinity...

    That and the rumors that Cyclops dies and some of the AWFUL looking photos we've seen so far just gives me next to no confidence in this movie.

    So could his death scene be good? Sure. Anything's possible. That doesn't mean it's not a terrible idea to kill him off, nor does it mean that it's justified in any way.
     
  24. cookiva

    cookiva Registered

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    See, this is a debate that I can listen to. Not like the one about fox conspiracy theorys and such...

    I know that if Cyke was my fav, as he is yours, I would feel the same way. Its that he isnt, and he isnt the fav of the GA. That said, its way too sad that it might end like this. It really is...
     
  25. tonytr1687

    tonytr1687 Registered

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    I agree. You would think that his lack of screen time in the previous films would be all the more reason to give him his due in X3 but noooo they had to take the easy route, if his early death is indeed true. As for how I would of handled everything, its pretty simple and not at all very different from what theyre planning.

    You can have the exact same setup with Scott going to Alkali Lake and witnessing Jean's rising. She does her thing where she takes off his glasses and holds back his optic blast. But instead of vaporizing him it just backfires and creates a huge explosion of energy not unlike their encounter at Strykers lair in X2. Cyke is literally blown far away into the forest. He lives but suffers from some broken bones and of course he cant see because he has to keep his eyes shut. Jean meanwhile is knocked unconscious by the explosion and Logan proceeds to find her and bring her back to the mansion. He tells her that all he found were Scotts glasses and so they think hes dead. The old bartender from X1 finds Scott and offers to take him to a hospital but Scott refuses of course so the guy takes him to his home in the back of the bar. So while the main events are unfolding we occasionally come back to Scott's little side story where he opens up to the bartender and his wife who is tending to him. He tells them his story but doesnt mention hes a mutant. The couple sympathize with him so that when he does reveal he is a mutant they have a change of heart. They see that not all mutants are bad and Scott witnesses this, discovering for himself that mankind is not evil...just uninformed. So when Scott hears of the X-men engaging in the final battle on the news he asks if the couple could take him there and they are glad to help. So during the climax Cyke shows up to try to stop Jean who is causing all kinds of destruction as Dark Phoenix. Logan has already tried to break thru to her but to no avail. However when Scott tries he succeeds, and so Jean is saved from herself and Logan realizes once and for all that Scott is the guy for her. Jean sees the destruction she has caused and realizes Xavier was right to have placed those power blocks in her mind. She returns to normal but still retains some of her Phoenix power. In the wake of Xaviers death Scott takes his place as headmaster of the school, now completely confident in the dream his mentor had after his experience with the bartender and his wife. He talks of this in his eulogy at Xaviers funeral, and even in the midst of sorrow following the professors death, there is a sense of hope as Cyke will be there to carry on his dream. The torch has been passed.

    See that? A good way to keep Cyke alive, do his character justice, and keep him present throughout the movie, but not too much so as to detract from the main characters and plot. They wouldnt even have to change the existing scenes where Cyke is absent from the team and everything else. Just add that little side story to keep us up to speed with his character and then have him show up to save the day at the end like it should be. Storm can still have her place as a major player in the main events, just sans the eulogy. Same with Wolverine of course. Cyke can take over for the professor and the destruction left by Jean can cause the President to approve Trask's Sentinel program. The ending would leave way for a possible X4 if they so choose to go ahead with it.
     

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