"We Hurt The Ones We Love The Most"

[Cyclops]

See, I could live with that. I'd actually LIKE it. Very much.

 

[Cyclops]

See, this is a debate that I can listen to. Not like the one about fox conspiracy theorys and such...

I know that if Cyke was my fav, as he is yours, I would feel the same way. Its that he isnt, and he isnt the fav of the GA. That said, its way too sad that it might end like this. It really is...

Conspiracy theories are almost always bupkis anyway.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think it should take a bias to see that there is no real justification for killing Cyclops off.

 

[cookiva]

Conspiracy theories are almost always bupkis anyway.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think it should take a bias to see that there is no real justification for killing Cyclops off.

But it does. See, if Storm were to die, Im sure A1nt or Lightning would be doing what you are, but would you still be mad? Maybe, maybe not. When Iceman (and Im saying Iceman meaning comic Iceman) lost his powers momentarilly due to House of M, I was so upset that I almost cried. Did you? Probably not. Being biased has to do with everything.

 

[Cyclops]

Yeah, actually, I would. Yeah, Halle Berry has done nothing to impress me in the X-Movies, but that doesn't mean I'd want to see Storm killed. I'm all for a certain degree of separation from the comics, but when you kill off a character who isn't dead in the comics, you cross a line that shouldn't be crossed.

And in all honesty, comics for the most part have been so bad these past few years that I can hardly muster any emotion but frustration. I was more frustrated at the gross mischaracterization Iceman's suffered ever since Chuck Austen took over.

 

[JP]

A lot of Spider fans want MJ dead in SM3.

Eh, I still blame Vaughn for all these deaths.

 

[OutcryX]

I agree. You would think that his lack of screen time in the previous films would be all the more reason to give him his due in X3 but noooo they had to take the easy route, if his early death is indeed true. As for how I would of handled everything, its pretty simple and not at all very different from what theyre planning.

You can have the exact same setup with Scott going to Alkali Lake and witnessing Jean's rising. She does her thing where she takes off his glasses and holds back his optic blast. But instead of vaporizing him it just backfires and creates a huge explosion of energy not unlike their encounter at Strykers lair in X2. Cyke is literally blown far away into the forest. He lives but suffers from some broken bones and of course he cant see because he has to keep his eyes shut. Jean meanwhile is knocked unconscious by the explosion and Logan proceeds to find her and bring her back to the mansion. He tells her that all he found were Scotts glasses and so they think hes dead. The old bartender from X1 finds Scott and offers to take him to a hospital but Scott refuses of course so the guy takes him to his home in the back of the bar. So while the main events are unfolding we occasionally come back to Scott's little side story where he opens up to the bartender and his wife who is tending to him. He tells them his story but doesnt mention hes a mutant. The couple sympathize with him so that when he does reveal he is a mutant they have a change of heart. They see that not all mutants are bad and Scott witnesses this, discovering for himself that mankind is not evil...just uninformed. So when Scott hears of the X-men engaging in the final battle on the news he asks if the couple could take him there and they are glad to help. So during the climax Cyke shows up to try to stop Jean who is causing all kinds of destruction as Dark Phoenix. Logan has already tried to break thru to her but to no avail. However when Scott tries he succeeds, and so Jean is saved from herself and Logan realizes once and for all that Scott is the guy for her. Jean sees the destruction she has caused and realizes Xavier was right to have placed those power blocks in her mind. She returns to normal but still retains some of her Phoenix power. In the wake of Xaviers death Scott takes his place as headmaster of the school, now completely confident in the dream his mentor had after his experience with the bartender and his wife. He talks of this in his eulogy at Xaviers funeral, and even in the midst of sorrow following the professors death, there is a sense of hope as Cyke will be there to carry on his dream. The torch has been passed.

See that? A good way to keep Cyke alive, do his character justice, and keep him present throughout the movie, but not too much so as to detract from the main characters and plot. They wouldnt even have to change the existing scenes where Cyke is absent from the team and everything else. Just add that little side story to keep us up to speed with his character and then have him show up to save the day at the end like it should be. Storm can still have her place as a major player in the main events, just sans the eulogy. Same with Wolverine of course. Cyke can take over for the professor and the destruction left by Jean can cause the President to approve Trask's Sentinel program. The ending would leave way for a possible X4 if they so choose to go ahead with it.

This is actually quite a good idea. I would be all for it. I am a Cyclops fan...I'm a fan of all the X-men (wolverine slightly less) and don't want to see any of them die. THAT would be a great way to appease the fans of Cyclops and keep the movie as it now stands 98% intact. I'm a fan of Storm too and believe she should get more screen time...but they should NEVER have downplayed the importance of Cyclops in this series...and using him as the reason Jean goes nuts my be pivotal...but at the same time could be done so much better...like this idea right here...i like that very much

 

[Cyclops]

Well, their reasoning on that is so they can see the completion of the Gwen Stacy Death. I disagree, I don't think MJ should be killed. In fact, I'd like to see her have nothing at all to do with the villains Spidey faces for once. It won't happen, I'm sure. One of the villains will inevitably kidnap MJ to get to Spidey.

But back to this film. Regardless of favoritism, killing a main-cast hero is a bad idea. Bad bad bad. And when you also factor in that Marsden himself has been more enthusiastic about the X-Men films than any of the cast, it becomes even more wrong.

 

[cookiva]

A lot of Spider fans want MJ dead in SM3.

Eh, I still blame Vaughn for all these deaths.

Thinking about it, I do too...

 

[OutcryX]

Vaughn focked this franchise (deaths wise) and then left. Kinberg and Penn were just weak willed and in over their heads enough to keep his ideas intact after he left.

 

[JP]

Thinking about it, I do too...

You do to what?

I donno. I agree with Cyclops. Scatts death is just wrong. But, I'm not a fan and I really don't care that much. Sad but true. From what we've seen in the teaser, Marsdens performance looks great. So, I'm hoping the scene wont be that terribly (for non scott fans, anyway)

 

[JP]

Vaughn focked this franchise (deaths wise) and then left. Kinberg and Penn were just weak willed and in over their heads enough to keep his ideas intact after he left.

I think it's a shame. Say what you want about Ratner, but I would have seriously loved to see what he could have done with this franchise on his own. Ah well.

 

[cookiva]

I think it's a shame. Say what you want about Ratner, but I would have seriously loved to see what he could have done with this franchise on his own. Ah well.

God, I know. While Singers view was good, I think that Ratner would have had the characters true to the source. Cyke wouldnt seem as weak, Bobby would play pranks, Storm would do stuff, etc...

 

[Cyclops]

Weak? Now lack of screentime or not, Cyclops has come across as anything but weak.

Bobby has been underplayed big time, but I let that slide as he was initially nothing more than a short cameo that got expanded probably late in the game. Heck, the X2 special on Fox had Iceman being quite the prankster, with him freezing a waterfountain as a student was drinking from it and probably doing other things I can't recall.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

But it does. See, if Storm were to die, Im sure A1nt or Lightning would be doing what you are, but would you still be mad? Maybe, maybe not. When Iceman (and Im saying Iceman meaning comic Iceman) lost his powers momentarilly due to House of M, I was so upset that I almost cried. Did you? Probably not. Being biased has to do with everything.

Actually, not all the time.

For example, if they killed off Storm I wouldn't be any more disgusted than I've been with this series since day one (specifically regarding the treatment of that character). In my honest opinion they've been "killing" Storm in every film; I've had to sit through two films rolling my eyes in annoyance at an actress with a white wig so-called "Storm"--but in name only.

So no, if they killed her in X3 I wouldn't be surprised in the least. Disapointed? Yes. Angry. More so. But I still wouldn't *boycott* the film--that's just silly. There are other X-Men that I'm attached to.

I'm just hoping Storm will finally come to life in this installment.

 

[JP]

I guess I can't complain since I've had a great Jean Grey and a kick ass Magneto in both films. My favorite characters haven't been harmed.

 

[Retroman]

"We Hurt The Ones We Love The Most"
A Theory On Why Cyclops' Death Might Work

An Essay By Lightning Strikez!
​

I've given much thought to these alleged "death" rumors, and have come to the conclusion that Cyclop's death might--just might--actually work for this film depending on how it's executed. Now, don't get wrong, I think it'd be a crime to waste such a promising and underdeveloped character, especially in lieu of the great actor that is James Marsden. However, this thread is not meant to discuss the *crimes* of this possible outcome, but rather how it might actually work--if it's done for emotional impact.

A Deeper Motive​

Bryan Singer's prior X-films contained a certain level of believability and realism. Therefore, there obviously won't be outer space aliens or entities taking over bodies as they do in comic books. So what other element could feasibly drive Jean Grey to become Dark Phoenix without compromising the realistic tone in this series?

The answer? Accidental Manslaughter & Revenge.

If Jean accidentally deals a fatal blow to her lover, she (and the audience) will be forced to come to a chilling conclusion: She is out of control. And from what we understand, it will be revealed that Charles Xavier set her up for that failure--not only by putting psionic "brakes" in her mind at a tender young age, but also by stifling her attempts to develop her powers (i.e. in Cerebro).

Understandably, this revelation would likely pitch Jean into a wide plethora of emotions--including feelings of rage, betrayal, grief, confusion...and of course, insanity. Charles Xavier was her figurative "father" figure, her protector, her teacher. Yet, due to his overprotectiveness, he might have interfered with her natural evolution, thereby "framing" her in a sense with the future murder of Scott Summers. As a result, I think audiences would totally understand her defection to Magneto's Brotherhood Of Mutants.

So for this reason (and this reason alone), I believe that Scott's death--if it is true--could be one of the most emotionally gripping and pivotal scenes of the film for 3 different reasons: (1) It will show audiences just how powerful Jean has become, (2) his death would provide a "realistic" motive for Jean to apostasize against her mentor and (3) it would give basis to Jean's avenging Scott by killing someone else--as speculated.

"We hurt the ones we love the most"​

If these rumors hold true, this old adage will take on significant emotional meaning for Jean Grey, and the two most important men in her life. If done right, I believe it could be a powerful element in this movie--and most importantly--it would ensure that Scott's death would not be an "empty" thing.

Your thoughts?

I think you summed it better than anyone else has. Not that agree with Cyclops death but the reasons you've posted are the most logical ones. I never really thought about it like this before you posted it.

 

[Son Of Logan]

I really don't want to see Cyke die, but I have thought of it along the lines you have described, LS. Again, you give a level-headed theory to calm some of the more excitable members of the Hype.

 

[WorthyStevens]

I still believe Scott leaves the lake and the team before Jean rises...

Please somebody just confirm this for my sake...

 

[Aiden]

Well, Simon did say there would be surprises concerning Cyclops so you never know Worthy

 

[MoiBijou]

Those secret scenes never put on the script (Stewart's words)...

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Well, Simon did say there would be surprises concerning Cyclops so you never know Worthy

Exactly Aiden. His exact quote:

I love Cyclops. Sorry Ghostman for not answering this earlier, but I guess I missed your first post. I was a huge Cyclops fan from the comics growing up. He has some very dramatic scenes in this film, and definitely a few surprises. The Cyclops/Scott in X3 is not the clean-cut boy from the first two films. Jean’s death in X2 really impacted him.

And thanks Son Of Logan.

 

[Almighty Pejo]

why don't you, Pejo, Kurosawa and Tony propose some *better* ways they could've introduced the Dark Phoenix element without bringing in the Shi'ar, outer space Cosmic Entities, and all of the other comic-booky stuff that would've made Bryan Singer's former films seem out-of-continuity?

Considering that I already gave the simplest reasoning that being dead and coming back to life with uncontrollable powers was quite enough to drive anyone mad, and it was reiterated by Cyclops, it appears I have already proposed a better way, or at the very least, a very logical alternative. As I said feeling compelled to destroy is far more terrifying when there is no reason. Understanding why a character is doing the things they do only lowers them to your level, which is what the majority of the other characters are there for. As every outlet has said, she is not the Dr. Grey from the first two films. Things that would have motivated her should not motivate the Phoenix. Hainvg the Phoenix' motivation for wanting to destroy the world be revenge is insulting and catering to the lowest possible common denominator. And that's not even addressing the issues with Scott being vaporized.

You speak of Bryan Singer's realism limiting what they can do with Phoenix. How so? Pretty much everyone said she, in and of herself, was far too impossible and outlandish for a Singer movie, but Bryan introduced her into the X-Men universe and later referred to her imminent return as evolution itself, going beyond the realism people had expected from him after X-Men. As such, we cannot begin to really speculate on what Singer would have done with her, or how he would have explored her, or to what extremes he would have taken her. But we can say that she has been the singlemost source for active evolution and change through this series; the very spotlight of that particular theme. Therefore, it only stands to reason, when it comes to this specific character, all bets are (or rather should be) off. And when Wizard remarked she wanted to destroy the world, and the movie novelization (and I'm giving major concessions here considering the novel is written by Chris Claremont) speaks of her being possessed with cosmic might and world devouring power, nothing really indicates she is going to be as strapped down by realism as one may think. Giving her a 'realistic' motivation for an 'unrealistic' desire seems a moot point.

The comic book universe had been to space and fought in an intergalactic war before the Dark Phoenix Saga, thus setting a very large, very epic scale for future stories. Because of that, (and the nature of comic Phoenix being born of the stars) to show just how immense the threat of Dark Phoenix was, she had to destroy a sun, to give scale to her power. Considering such things have not been introduced in the slightest in these movies, all you have to do is make the Phoenix' threat larger than the threats we saw in the first two films. They would need neither the Shi'Ar, nor the D'Bari, nor any sort of Cosmic Force to make her a global threat, nor would they need to kill Cyclops, if they would simply focus on the easy given that she simply isn't the same woman anymore. I doubt anyone would be after they died.

And don't bring in some "She'd just be reborn insane" stuff because that's very passe and audiences would yawn at that.

It isn't about being reborn insane, it's about being reborn with so much power that you are driven insane. If an audience's brain is so mushy that they don't want provocative questions about the burdens of having those kinds of powers placed on them, to toy with the idea of what we could someday become if we should evolve beyond our mortal limitations and become as gods, and try to feel the torment of who this person is simply by being who they are instead of their experiences, learning and feeling and thinking for themselves instead of being handed an easy and contrived device of an answer, then they shouldn't be coming to watch an X-Men film. The power of that book (and the film franchise) was never in the flashy dashy, but the heady underlying themes; it was the philosopher's franchise. Phoenix is their opportunity to explore the unexplorable. I don't want to see them pass it up in favor of making a more 'relateable, human' Phoenix.

 

[cookiva]

Those secret scenes never put on the script (Stewart's words)...

Hmm...seems time for a bumpage...

 

[cookiva]

Those secret scenes never put on the script (Stewart's words)...

Hmm...seems time for a bumpage...

 

[spideydave]

Sniff Sniff but I dont want anyone to die!