What are your complaints? What would you do differently? *SPOILERS*

Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by Visiting Arkham, Jun 14, 2013.

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  1. Visiting Arkham Registered

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    Well, now that the film has premiered it's time to get into the dirty little details. While many people love Man of Steel (especially on this board), there are many others whose expectations were not met, who have things they would change, or outright hate the film. This is not a place for a "You're wrong, I'm right!" argument to break out, rather, it's for those who feel unfulfilled by what they saw and and would ultimately change things given the chance.

    Personally, I would give Man of Steel a 7/10 upon my first viewing. It's not a horrible film, but it definitely did not live up the advertising which had been created for it, nor did it live up to my hope of having a legitimately inventive and exciting beginning of a DC Shared Universe, unlike Iron Man. Here are some nits, picks, and complaints to get us started off.

    -The opening shot of Kal El being born is gorgeous, and a genuinely fantastic way to begin this saga, especially since so much of it hinges on the idea of natural, not genetically manipulated birth. However, the Krypton scenes that follow border on nonsensical and way too rushed. If we had just had maybe one or two scenes prior to the council scene, establishing Jor El and General Zod as genuine allies with one tragic difference in world views, it would have given so much more weight to the Jor El's death, Zod's incarceration, and the destruction of Krypton. Ultimately it just feels like one rushed action setpiece to the next, setting up the very plotty MacGuffin in the Codex. Say what you want about the original Superman's version of Krypton, the silly outfits and fake looking sets, Donner gives it mournful pace and a wonderful, wise Jor El in Marlon Brando who really sells the importance of the moment. TELLING rather than SHOWING is generally a big complaint I have about David Goyer's script.

    -Our first time spent with Clark. Again, the entire sequence on the boat is so, so rushed and could have been used to show us who Clark is at the beginning of the story, rather than an excuse for a setpiece. What if we had a couple scenes on the boat with Clark interacting with the crew, sharing stories, making jokes, just having a simple conversation? The human element felt very lost in Man of Steel, and scenes where we get a clearer sense of the man Clark has become would have been great peppered throughout his beginning journey. Also, the actual oil rig destruction itself was a let down as a setpiece. It was basically 30 seconds of Clark holding up something heavy. I'm not asking for a MASSIVE action scene here, but every bit of action should progress as a story, with a beginning, middle, and end. This was one long note without any variance.

    -This is skipping ahead quite a bit, but the outfit reveal. It's presented to Clark without any explanation, and it comes after a massive info dump of exposition by Jor El. And then almost immediately after, he is suddenly in the suit and bouncing around. Clark has no reaction to seeing the suit, wearing it, anything. It's simply something he has to put on now, thanks Dad! It should be treated as mythic, like Jason acquiring the Golden Fleece. Even Green Lantern handled Hal Jordan getting the ring and "becoming" a costumed superhero better. Batman Begins had 20 minutes of buildup, with Bruce slowing building his suit and then the dock fight hidden in shadows, building up to his "I'm Batman" headbutt. The whole transition of Clark Kent to Superman wasn't handled particularly well, but I think missing this moment is endemic of the problems with the whole movie.

    I have many more floating around in my head, but I thought I'd start off the conversation and maybe pepper them in as people post. Again, this is not meant as a hatefest, merely a place to vent frustrations. Better luck in 2015, Superman (aka, please give David Goyer something else besides Man of Steel 2 to do).
     
  2. Autonet What?

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    I agree on the suit and I find it surprising very few others didn't have an issue with that part. The suit is important!
     
  3. sf2 Registered

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    No complaints just wish lists.*

    the pa kent
    i wish Clark would emotional break down in front of Lois when he talked about his father death. he should have blamed himself for not saving his father and being too selfish and too afraid. then to see Lois consoled him and there is where the affection grow.

    the first introduction
    i wish after the first flight they would have done it like Ironman. you know inserting some "the crowd pleasing saving scenes" over the whole world.the piling machine and its destruction to cut half.
     
  4. Visiting Arkham Registered

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    I definitely agree with this. It makes sense to not do that in a Batman film, since the character is much more about punishing criminals than saving lives, but Superman as the first true superhero HAS to have those moments. Man of Steel repeatedly tries to shove the meaning of Superman down our throats without showing why he is a symbol for hope. And even thinking about that story, what would ingratiate mankind to Superman more than if he went all around the world saving lives? Even the first Raimi Spider-Man had the sense to have him stop muggers and save children.
     
  5. DACrowe Registered

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    The biggest issue was direction.

    I got that Snyder wanted to be serious and epic, instead of light and zippy with his action (as compared to the beloved sequences in The Avengers or Spider-Man 2). However, the sequences were overdone and too dreary. They did not feel exhilarating, but depressing with an overeliance on 9/11 imagery and what one poster dubbed destruction porn. This also loses the thematic thread of the story, kind of how I feel like the rivalry between Zod and Jor-El, as well as Jor and Lana's sacrifice, is muted with all the needless CGI dragon flying and laser fights at the beginning.

    Great cast, great acting, solid story, but some really questionable execution.

    Just my opinion.
     
  6. DACrowe Registered

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    The biggest issue was direction.

    I got that Snyder wanted to be serious and epic, instead of light and zippy with his action (as compared to the beloved sequences in The Avengers or Spider-Man 2). However, the sequences were overdone and too dreary. They did not feel exhilarating, but depressing with an overeliance on 9/11 imagery and what one poster dubbed destruction porn. This also loses the thematic thread of the story, kind of how I feel like the rivalry between Zod and Jor-El, as well as Jor and Lana's sacrifice, is muted with all the needless CGI dragon flying and laser fights at the beginning.

    Great cast, great acting, solid story, but some really questionable execution.

    Just my opinion.
     
  7. Blake II Registered

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    - They should've had the flashbacks in chronological order

    - Clark's earth dad's death should have been more emotional by having him on the ground crying while having his dad on the ground as well telling him to stay back instead of him standing up and then disappearing in the tornado

    - They should have had more dialogue between Clark and his parents

    - They should have brought in a different way to introduce the suit instead of just having it appear out of nowhere

    - Faora should have lived because she was so damn fine with that b*tch face she puts on

    - They should have had a post-credits scene with the next villain (Lex Luthor?) even if it's just 5 seconds, something to reward the fans with.

    Other than that, I loved the movie. Action scenes were PERFECT length and were the best action scenes I've ever seen in a superhero movie.
     
  8. Autonet What?

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    Here's a few random nitpicks:

    1. Lois called up to Black Zero by Zod for no reason (or a flimsy one, they had Clark already).
    2. His father's death was weak. Apparently people cried at this? I didn't think the scene was realistic enough.
    3. Got suit before Zod arrived, learned to fly, never used it again until Zod showed up weeks/months later.
    4. Pacing/plot development and depth needed work. I blame Goyer.
    5. Zod never had a badass moment where he had Clark on the ropes and injured.
    6. Wish Clark/young Clark had more development into why he was saving people now and why he donned the suit to become a symbol of Hope.
    7. Lois has a montage where she looks for him. How long does it take to find him? No idea there is no hint given. Could've been a year for all we know.
    8. Priest scene. Could've talked to Lois or his Mom instead.
    9. Drop ships with Kryps always available to pickup Zod and Faora, but never available to help them fight?
    10. Lois follows Clark into the FoS after somehow seeing him accidentally with her camera? Also she traversed a cliff that no one but an expert climber with gear or Superman could traverse.
    11. Zod dies and Lois appears out of nowhere. Impossible for her to follow two supermen who are fighting in midair and in space.
     
  9. The Game Registered

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    That's exactly how I felt too
     
  10. Paruco Registered

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    1. I wouldn't have made Pa kent's death so... stupid!
    He tells them to go under a bridge, which is something one shouldn't do, but sure lets ignore it, then he save all those people annd goes back for a damn dog(Dogs may NEVER die in Hollywood damn it!) and stands there for like 10 seconds, does the hand thing we see throughout the whole movie, and just disappears, and apparently the tornado does too! So Death would've been like All star Superman( supes realizes he cant save everyone)
    2. Set better groundwork for future films, especially for a JLA movie( which I hope doesnt happen with Snyder or Goyer, or this supes even though the actor is close to perfect)
    Does Hamilton get sucked in the phantom zone? If not, Goyer just fudged it up since Hamilton is soooo important(was really excited when introduced, and confused when he apparently died)
    BRANIAC! No one mentions Braniac even though there are robots in Krypton!
    Maybe even a mention or cameo of amanda waller or the initiation of project Cadmus by the end but that can wait.
    Yes theres the Lexcorp thing and apparently a satellite by Wayne enterprises, but if they really killed hamilton they fudged up!
    3. Everything un-superman like:
    Superman doesn't care where he fights, he even hits a ship into a building, probably killing thousands, he allows half of metropolis to be destroyed, he doesnt even look horrified in the ashes of the city since he makes out with Lois, but sure he cares abou those 4 people he kills Zod for.
    Superman smiles 3 times in the movie, and he is waayyy too brooding, I even felt the Bat movies werent as much as Man of Steel!
    4.Superman did have other ways to stop zod from killing that family.
    What I thought was " well anyone else would kill Zod, he's a dick! But this is Superman, he himself says in the animated series that there's always another way! There was too! he could've punched Zod out of the buildings, again, away from the people (which is strange since he allows a ton to die in his battles), or used super speed to shield them from the rays and taken them far away and KOd Zod in an uninhabited place!

    To me it was just terrible writing. Goyer seemed to not care that the prolonging struggle with supes is that he always pulls back on his punches, he is kind hearted and believes all life forms are important! In the movie, he doesn't seem to be affected in scenes after this, no one even mentions it later. In JL and JLU he almost kills Darkseid, because its Darkseid( he also says that he will kill more humans just to piss off Kal in the animated series, sound familiar?)! but bats stops him, which is a great moment for the characters and coulve been used for a possible JL movie...
    5. Zach Snyder
    Perhaps we wouldnt have great fights in the movie, but he cant hold a cohesive strory, and Im sure Goyer is to blame too. I dont like Color pallette for a superman movie, it does fit the mood though, since even when its sunny it doesnt appear so. In other words, normal colors coulve helped the movie seem more real and in this world, sine that was the point. neither like the found footage zooms, but I Applaud him for not using slow mo fight sequences, which actually fits supes! He also went over the top with the destruction, I agree that would happen in a fight like that, but this amount of destruction shoulve been seen in a darkseid invasion in a JL movie!

    So yeah... I dont think MoS is a good Superman Movie and is a bad way to start off
     
  11. Travesty Registered

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    One thing I want to know is: was this movie financed by IHOP?

    Minor complaint, but Cavil needs to shave that chest hair. Or at least, shave it enough so its not popping out of his suit.
     
  12. sf2 Registered

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    I guess u have to rewatch the movie.
    1. She was called up because general zod wanna get info about clark from her. She apologied, didnt she?
    2. His father died is most crucial. He has to keep his promise not to reveal himself.
    3. Refer to 2.
    4. Some like it. Same to the krypton scene. It's epic but some dislike it.
    5. U do know that jor el n zod r friend, do u?
    6. He donned the suit because he has embraced his alien heritage. He never tell people he is a symbol of hope. He just said the s shield meaning is hope.
    7. Nitpicking
    8. Would get biased opinion. Like his father gave him.
    9. ???
     
  13. The Game Registered

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    1. Pa Kents death.......sigh
    2. Lack of explanation of the suit
    3. The relationship between Clark & Lois felt rushed
    4. Jor-El being omnipresent
    5. Fear only seemed to come from the military
     
    #13 The Game, Jun 14, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  14. Skrilla31 Registered

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    What would I have done different? In retrospect? Not hire David Goyer. Not hire Zach Snyder. Clearly they were not up to the task. Goyer was all ideas and no story and Zach was all show and no feel. All in all I feel the trailers told the story better than the actual film did, and I feel robbed for it. It was just a poorly made film all around so I'm not sure what one thing could have been changed to make it better. You'd have to tear everything down and build from scratch.
     
  15. Comics N' Toons Viva La Revolucion!

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    No chemistry between cavill & adams!
     
  16. Llama_Shepherd Registered

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    I'd have chosen a different villain. In theory Zod works great because he is tied to Krypton, and therefore Superman's origin. In practice, it doesn't work so well, as Krypton is a small part of the origin, and doesn't actually relate to Clark's character, thus resulting in what felt like an abridged version of two films, over three acts: Zod vs the El's on Krypton, the transition from Jor-El to Clark's storyline, and then finally Superman vs Zod.


    Many of the problems might have been solved with a villain who could have an arc concurrently with Clark.
     
  17. Man of Steel Superman

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    Pa Kent's death and Zod's seeming death. I refuse to accept that Superman actually killed him, for reasons I stated in another thread.
     
  18. BaleISBatman4ev Registered

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    I agree with EVERYTHING the original poster described.

    The films tragic flaws are in the script and direction as far the choices made in regards to pacing/dialogue and character development. The idea of this movie is great, the execution isnt.

    I was super hyped for this and upon reflection and letting it marinate here is what I was expecting based on the impeccable marketing and trailers.

    I expected this to be more of a slow build up type of narrative to a whiz bang conclusion.... One in which we slowly see Clark develop his personality and identity through the guidance of his parents and learning to hone his powers and discovering them as we go along. This sense of wonderment and awe would be followed by the pressure Clark feels in holding those said powers back and coming out as superman would be a triumphant coming of age and sealing of his identity as a superhero.

    What did I get instead?

    Brief expository flashbacks that last several minutes at a time of set piece after set piece of Clark already seemingly having a grasp and knowledge of all his powers with no contemplation of what they mean and how best to utilize them for humanity.

    When he learns who he is at the fortress somehow Lois finds her way there!?!? What!?!? Shouldnt superman be the only to be able to get there let alone be able to find it? And not only that but it disrupts what should be a monumental moment between birth father and son and the costume reveal.

    When he finally reveals himself to humanity its at the whim of an alien terrorist demand... its not because he feels an intrinsic heroic need to save people as Superman... its simply to go see what Zod wants and subsequently... to beat his ass down... that doesnt scream Superman to me sorry.

    When superman shows up in S:TM he saves lois and lifts a helicopter "I'm a friend" and even in returns when he saves the plane... he is SAVING people as his introduction and thats his quintessential purpose... to SAVE people.

    Again some of these ideas are hinted at early in the film but never fully explored the way the TDK trilogy explores the psyche and inner workings of what makes Bruce... Batman.

    Again scenes of actual character interaction such as Clark interacting with his ship mates or with Lana or even extended conversations with his parents would have all helped to serve the narrative as far as relating to Clark as a man.

    I could keep going but im gonna stop there for now.

    Im watching it again tonight but i doubt my concerns will change if not worsen! I suspect the honeymoon stage for this movie will be pretty short for fans as bad storytelling can never be compensated for by heaps of action.

    As an action movie Begins sorta sucked but as a drama it excelled and thats why we ended up with the best superhero trilogy ever comitted to film...because emphasis was on the characters and their arcs and the story.

    MOS: 6/10

    BB 8/10
    TDK 10/10
    TDKR 8.5/10
     
  19. DrMylesOBoogie Registered

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    1. Jor El's death. Being killed by Zod didn't really add anything to the story but it sacrificed the strong visual of him and Lara standing together when Krypton perishes.

    2. Pa Kent's death. It's mainly a problem with the edit. It cuts to Clark too many times which makes him look like an idiot for staying rooted. I wish he'd been busy getting other people away and upon turning to see Pa only having a split second to react.

    3. Zod's death. I'd have shown Superman and least trying to fly Zod away but being unable to move him from the spot. it would have sold killing as a last resort better. His reaction to his actions was brilliant though.
     
  20. Reel Registered

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    I would've opened the film with Clark on the boat going into Oil Rig save as the big opening action sequence.
    Would've had all the 'origin' part the same' up to arriving in the Fortress. Then have Jor-El flashback for Krypton scenes leading up to Zod being inprisoned. This way we are learning about Krypton same time as Clark is. We also believe that Zod is in Phantom Zone.

    Then when Zod shows up Clark and the audience are like "say whaat?". When Clark goes aboard Black Zero he can tell Clark how he escaped.

    Wouldn't have Kal-El kill Zod either. I would've have them both sucked into the black hole which I would have as a temporary Phantom Zone portal and have the two grapple/fight without their abilities on the other side of the portal and Kal-El just manages to jump back through in time. Lois runs over hugs him and then the "what are you going to do when your saving the world". Return to Smallville and have Martha say little things like "your father wouldn't be happy" then tips on going unnoticed.

    Keep the ending how it is. Nobody has really seen him as Superman except military guys and lois so nobody at the planet or in metropolis are going to suspect Clark.

    Change Jonathan's death a bit as well so its more heroic and so Clark is off saving other people at the same time as Jonathan and because Jonathan doesn't have powers dies. Something like that.
     
  21. Autonet What?

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    This isn't a thread to debate the points, but I have no idea what you're saying for 3/4 of what you wrote in response. And #2 has nothing to do with #3. You remember he saved the Oil Rig guys by opening the door and saying "hello." Secret not kept. I won't go further. :whatever:
     
  22. Visiting Arkham Registered

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    These reminded me of a bunch of things that tore me out of the movie, so I'm going to throw in the first 10 nitpicks that come to mind:

    1. The CGI during many of the fights look very gummy. I was reminded of the Matrix sequels multiple times looking at the character models, giving everything an unreal quality.

    2. To piggyback on the Lois Lane investigation montage, it took away from our appreciation of the character by having her track down Clark in 3 minutes using mostly voiceover by Amy Adams. It takes away from the accomplishment of it, that this woman is the ONLY person in years to track down this all powerful alien.

    3. Diane Lane was a watered down Sally Field who was a watered down Rosemary Harris. She was about the equivalent to Harry's butler in Spider-Man 3.

    4. The non-reaction to making first contact with alien life. Alien life in blue spandex, a red cape, who can fly. Almost no reaction.

    5. The gentle death by tornado.

    6. Not enough Clark Kent scenes. I'm just talking about Clark out in the wild, like when he's working at that pub. Scenes showing who exactly this guy is without millions of dollars of explosions on the screen. Simple conversations to give you a sense of how he interacts with the common man.

    7. I'd like to have seen a sympathetic relationship between Zod and Clark. Both of them have compelling point of view, but it would have been nice to have seen some understanding between them, making the end that much more tragic. So not only does he kill the last of his kind, he kills someone who could have been another father figure to him.

    8. Perry White, Jenny Olsen and the rest of the gang pretty much had nothing to do. An energetic newsroom environment could have added a much needed dynamic to the otherworldly aspects of Man of Steel.

    9. "You carry this girl, I'll get the dog. I don't care if the tornado presents no danger to you whatsoever, I'M GETTING THE DOG."

    10. The super grounded take on Superman, still with unbelievable Clark Kent disguise! Seriously, his face would be on EVERY NEWSPAPER, MAGAZINE, AND WEBSITE ON THE PLANET. NO ONE IS FOOLED CLARK.
     
  23. pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    No huge complaints with the film. (solid 9/10)

    I would have probably given some sort of tease at the end. Lex or something.

    And I'm also very excited to see a Zack Snyder signature extended directors cut. As there is room for more in this already 2.25 hour movie.
     
  24. Iron_Madrigal Registered

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    1. Pa Kent's death. It seemed too forced and unrealistic. He basically chose to abandon his family instead of let Clark help him.

    2. No acknowledgement about the death toll in Metropolis. Superman had multiple chances to limit the destruction (they fly into space at one point, but Supes slams Zod back down and into a building).
     
  25. Iron_Madrigal Registered

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    Nah, everyone who got close to him probably died during the fight scenes. LOL.
     
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