What can DC/WB do now to move forward? Is there hope? - Part 1

UltimatePyro9 said:
I just realized a problem the DCEU has and it sorta competing with the DCCWU or "Arrowverse" as it were.

Because the DCEU and the Arrowverse are two different entities, they can tell stories with the same character played by different actors. However, the DCEU has to have movies strong enough where the general public would be willing to go to the movie theater and spend money. It has to be very different from the 'Arrowverse' where it doesn't feel like the movie is retreading old plots from the TV shows. And they have to do that with a Hollywood blockbuster budget.

I mean, why should I watch a possible Man of Steel 2, when there's a Supergirl show that has a, well, more 'characterized' Superman in it?
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This is why I still fear for the future of the Arrowverse, albeit less so than before. Because that is a plausible, if horrible, argument for why the movie division should want to get rid of those shows.
 
metaphysician said:
This is why I still fear for the future of the Arrowverse, albeit less so than before. Because that is a plausible, if horrible, argument for why the movie division should want to get rid of those shows.
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I genuinely don't see this happening. All those comic shows on CW will burst on their own with that amount of saturation.
 
Luke234 said:
A lot of people don't bother to watch the tv shows because they're a little young jokey and cheesy. But some people really love them so it's good there's both for different tastes.
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True. I guess, to me, it just seems redundant to announce a Flash film when a Flash TV show is airing. Again, what can the film do different than what the TV show is doing?
 
UltimatePyro9 said:
True. I guess, to me, it just seems redundant to announce a Flash film when a Flash TV show is airing. Again, what can the film do different than what the TV show is doing?
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Well, it can introduce Ezra Miller's Flash, who is not part of the Flash TV show. It can have connective tissue to the rest of the DCEU, which is not related to the Flash TV show. It can also just tell a good Flash story, which we can never have enough of.
 
metaphysician said:
This is why I still fear for the future of the Arrowverse, albeit less so than before. Because that is a plausible, if horrible, argument for why the movie division should want to get rid of those shows.
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Well, we've seen some meddling with the shows because of that since Arrow has already killed off Deadshot and Amanda Waller due to the characters being in Suicide Squad.
 
I still believe if you gave WB truth serum they would have decided to go with the flash in movies only. I think they never anticipated the show blowing up as quickly as it did and really messed up when they casted ezra at the same time. But hey if we wind up with 2 awesome versions of barry allen at the same time which I think we are then its icing on the cake.
 
So far I'm not a fan of Ezra Miller's Bally, but I realize I've only seen like 30 seconds of his performance (and that bit from SS).
 
metaphysician said:
This is why I still fear for the future of the Arrowverse, albeit less so than before. Because that is a plausible, if horrible, argument for why the movie division should want to get rid of those shows.
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The DC TV shows bring in over $1 billion for Warner Bros. When you consider BvS and SS combined brought in only $1.6 billion, I doubt that WB would sacrifice that cash cow for the sake of the movies.

Source:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/dc-universe-movies-heading-tnt-tbs-943361?utm_source=twitter
 
Here is the official Razzie pre-nomination ballot/shortlist. The nominations will be revealed on January 23.

WORST PREQUEL, REMAKE, RIPOFF OR SEQUEL
Alice Through the Looking Glass
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Blair Witch
The Divergent Series: Allegiant
Fifty Shades of Black (rip-off of Fifty Shades of Grey)
Independence Day: Resurgence
The Legend of Tarzan
London Has Fallen
My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2
Ride Along 2
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows
Zoolander 2

WORST SCREENPLAY
Assassin’s Creed
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Dirty Grandpa
The Divergent Series: Allegiant
Fifty Shades of Black
Ghostbusters
Gods of Egypt
Hillary’s America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party
Independence Day: Resurgence
Mother’s Day
Suicide Squad
Zoolander 2

WORST SUPPORTING ACTRESS
Cassi Davis – Boo! A Madea Halloween
Julianne Hough – Dirty Grandpa
Kate Hudson – Mother’s Day
Keira Knightley – Collateral Beauty
Helen Mirren – Collateral Beauty
Aubrey Plaza – Dirty Grandpa
Jane Seymour – Fifty Shades of Black
Octavia Spencer – The Divergent Series: Allegiant
Sela Ward – Independence Day: Resurgence
Kristen Wiig – Masterminds / Zoolander 2
Kate Winslet – Collateral Beauty

WORST SUPPORTING ACTOR
Nicolas Cage – Snowden
Benedict Cumberbatch – Zoolander 2
Johnny Depp – Alice Through the Looking Glass
Jesse Eisenberg – Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Will Ferrell – Zoolander 2
Jeff Goldblum – Independence Day: Resurgence
Jeremy Irons – Assassin’s Creed / Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Jared Leto – Suicide Squad
T.J. Miller – Office Christmas Party
Geoffrey Rush – Gods of Egypt
Brenton Thwaites – Gods of Egypt
Owen Wilson – Masterminds / Zoolander 2

WORST DIRECTOR
Dinesh D’Souza – Hillary’s America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party
Roland Emmerich – Independence Day: Resurgence
Justin Kurzel – Assassin’s Creed
Dan Mazer – Dirty Grandpa
Greg McLean – The Darkness
Babak Najafi – London Has Fallen
Tyler Perry – Boo! A Madea Halloween
Alex Proyas – Gods of Egypt
Zack Snyder – Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Ben Stiller – Zoolander 2
Michael Tiddes – Fifty Shades of Black

WORST ACTRESS
Jennifer Aniston – Mother’s Day / Office Christmas Party
Marion Cotillard – Allied / Assassin’s Creed
Megan Fox – Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows
Radha Mitchell – The Darkness
Tyler Perry (as Madea) – Boo! A Madea Halloween
Margot Robbie – The Legend of Tarzan / Suicide Squad
Julia Roberts – Mother’s Day
Becky Turner (as Hillary Clinton) – Hillary’s America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party
Naomi Watts – The Divergent Series: Allegiant / Shut In
Shailene Woodley – The Divergent Series: Allegiant

WORST ACTOR
Ben Affleck – Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Kevin Bacon – The Darkness
Gerard Butler – Gods of Egypt / London Has Fallen
Henry Cavill – Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Dinesh D’Souza (as himself) – Hillary’s America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party
Robert De Niro – Dirty Grandpa
Zac Efron – Dirty Grandpa / Mike and Dave Need Wedding Dates
Liam Hemsworth – Independence Day: Resurgence
Brad Pitt – Allied
Will Smith – Collateral Beauty / Suicide Squad
Ben Stiller – Zoolander 2
Marlon Wayans – Fifty Shades of Black

WORST PICTURE
Assassin’s Creed
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Collateral Beauty
The Darkness
Dirty Grandpa
The Divergent Series: Allegiant
Fifty Shades of Black
Gods of Egypt
Hillary’s America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party
Independence Day: Resurgence
London Has Fallen
Mother’s Day
Suicide Squad
Zoolander 2

http://www.goldderby.com/forum/movies/razzie-awards-2016-predictions/page/12/
 
I already said it, the damage done by BvS is unfixable, the only solution is a REBOOT.
 
Snyder and Eisenberg for the Razzie wins.
 
NHawk19 said:
That's basically what the entire discussion is. Did the movie make enough money, and create enough good will to warrant a sequel? But it's on a much larger scale because this was supposed to launch a franchise.

BvS was WB's second step in trying to create a larger DCCU. The movie itself had all the characters it should have needed to launch a franchise. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc and yet the movie didn't cross into an area that saw it generate the kind of profit the studious were anticipating. So the next step is lets look for some kind of ancillary wins for WB that might signal long term this is still a really good idea.

DCCU is late to the game. Marvel is established. WB needs to evaluate the following: Maybe it was some fatigue that set in. Maybe the fans loved it and we'll sell toys, and DVD's and we can use the positive momentum to justify moving forward. Unfortunately though this is not the case for BvS. The movie took a really enthusiastic fanbase and left them divided.

Now you're left with the following: An average profitable movie, with a divided fanbase. This now means half may decide it's not worth going to see the next film in the theaters, or spend their money on the ancillaries. That leaves a studio must evaluating whether or not to continue down the same path or find a way to course correct. It also puts them in a situation where now not only are the competing with a direct competitor but they are also forced to make-up for the "bad-will" they generated in half of the fan base.

To further complicate matters WB/DC announced a full slate and commitment to their DCCU. Now the question becomes how far down that rabbit hole are they willing to go?
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But if it made a billion, like i heard it did not, would we be having this discussion? I just don't think falling short by less than 200 grand will stop them from making movies or rebooting.
I could be wrong. We'll see. But if it was more kid friendly that alone probably would have got the movie to a billion if they missed by only that much. I'm not even debating the divisiveness but if people didn't pay attention to Rotten Timatoes that put it on par with Mortal Kombat 3 or 4 or whichever sequel it was, way more people would have gone.
So many people I work with wanted to see it but still have not because of that silly score. Again, who freakin cares? I don't. I still enjoyed them but I'm not beholden to how I want a certain character portrayed.
 
Luke234 said:
But if it made a billion, like i heard it did not, would we be having this discussion? I just don't think falling short by less than 200 grand will stop them from making movies or rebooting.
I could be wrong. We'll see. But if it was more kid friendly that alone probably would have got the movie to a billion if they missed by only that much. I'm not even debating the divisiveness but if people didn't pay attention to Rotten Timatoes that put it on par with Mortal Kombat 3 or 4 or whichever sequel it was, way more people would have gone.
So many people I work with wanted to see it but still have not because of that silly score. Again, who freakin cares? I don't. I still enjoyed them but I'm not beholden to how I want a certain character portrayed.
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Rotten tomatoes scores are correlated with film quality.

Highest-rated recent CBMs: Snowpiercer, The Dark Knight, Spider Man 2, Iron Man
Lowest-rated recent CBMs: Elektra, F4ntastic, Catwoman

People as such value the meaningful input. If a family of 4 goes to BvS, and buy popcorn and drinks for the kids, and pays for parking, it's not just 3 to 4 hours of time including viewing and previews and driving, etc ... it's about $75 in expenses including tickets, food, parking, and gas. Given that, they want it be for good movies only.

My old boss took his kids to see Batman v Superman. They did not enjoy the movie, in part as they had absolutely no idea what was going on with the plot.
 
Luke234 said:
But if it made a billion, like i heard it did not, would we be having this discussion? I just don't think falling short by less than 200 grand will stop them from making movies or rebooting.
I could be wrong. We'll see. But if it was more kid friendly that alone probably would have got the movie to a billion if they missed by only that much. I'm not even debating the divisiveness but if people didn't pay attention to Rotten Timatoes that put it on par with Mortal Kombat 3 or 4 or whichever sequel it was, way more people would have gone.
So many people I work with wanted to see it but still have not because of that silly score. Again, who freakin cares? I don't. I still enjoyed them but I'm not beholden to how I want a certain character portrayed.
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That's part of the interesting thing that is the whole BvS package. Despite having arguably the 3 biggest comics icons in it, it didn't make a billion. The other interesting question people are trying to figure out is; how can a movie that made that much money and had that much hype have alienated that much of the fan base? (And it wasn't 200 grand short it was 200 million short.)

If you liked it great, I sincerely hope you got your money's worth out of it. However more than a lot of people went and saw it because "yay the big three" and then came out feeling like they didn't enjoy it. The movie made it's bank on huge turnout opening weekend because of the demand for the product. But repeat viewings didn't take it further. This was indicated by the huge 2nd week drop in box office receipts for the movie. So that translates to a question for execs about whether or not the audience will even show up to a sequel, or related movie. The old fool me once shame on you foll me twice shame on me.

If this movie would've made a billion dollars, and left the fan base feeling the way it does we'd still be having this discussion. Because this wasn't about just one sequel to a film this is about 7-8 (Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman, Batman, Justice League, Wonder woman, Superman 2, etc.), and at a cost of +/- 300 million each (incl marketing) you're talking just an investment of 2.1-2.4 billion dollars.

It's not just rotten tomatoes, but it does exist as a gauge and something studios have to contend with. However like DA said that speaks to quality, and at $15 per person per viewing it lets people gauge if that's where they want to spend their time and money. In this day and age people have more options than ever to choose from. If they aren't willing to spend it on, and embrace the DCCU as it currently stands then WB may have to make adjustments, including but limited to reboots, or like you even pointed out becoming a little less dark.
 
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Looking back...

As for DC movies, I say WB, in 2016, took their general DC fan-base for granted. I'm not against DC movies at all. However, when I get that feeling of sloppy film-making being thrown at our faces with no regards to the character or story, that's when I stop seeing their movies in the theaters. Should WB continue down that path of film-making, as its only motivation to continue these movies is solely due to the franchise value and brand it brings for it's stockholders, then they'll hit a wall when reaching audience members like me.
 
Limonade said:
Looking back...

As for DC movies, I say WB, in 2016, took their general DC fan-base for granted. I'm not against DC movies at all. However, when I get that feeling of sloppy film-making being thrown at our faces with no regards to the character or story, that's when I stop seeing their movies in the theaters. Should WB continue down that path of film-making, as its only motivation to continue these movies is solely due to the franchise value and brand it brings for it's stockholders, then they'll hit a wall when reaching audience members like me.
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The only Comic Book movies Im supporting this year is GOTG 2 & Thor 3 Im in no hurry in seeing the rest right away. Id rather save money & support movies I normally wouldnt see if I only saw Superhero Movies all year round & the DC movies are pretty much not worth it anymore at least in regards to DC movies. With Logan Im just not crazy about the direction they took with that movie & Im iffy enough as is with Homecoming & its the 6th Spider-Man movie & we have already seen Michael Keaton in a bird like costume so Im not really in a rush there
 
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And I'm not saying this to cause any additional MCU vs. DCEU debate but if GOTG2 grosses more than JL, there's a problem and not with the MCU.
 
Erzengel said:
And I'm not saying this to cause any additional MCU vs. DCEU debate but if GOTG2 grosses more than JL, there's a problem and not with the MCU.
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That would be like a bigger upset than the latest election :woot: & Thor 3 can just as easily out gross JL now that Doctor Strange & Hulk has a fan base :cwink:
 
Look, while I'm not the biggest fan of BvS, I don't hate it by any means. Poorly written? Sure, and quite boring as well. But I enjoy the hell out of the action sequences, and that final battle scene, Lordy!

I, too, am excited to see Justice League, and really don't want a reboot of the franchise anytime soon
 
I imagine if any MCU movie can dethrone Justice League its Homecoming but good lord if either GOTG 2 or Thor 3 pulls it off that would be icing on the cake
 
Godzillasaurus said:
Look, while I'm not the biggest fan of BvS, I don't hate it by any means. Poorly written? Sure, and quite boring as well. But I enjoy the hell out of the action sequences, and that final battle scene, Lordy
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A two hour boring movie with a decent 8 minute fight that ends horribly yeah bring on the reboot
 
& can we all agree that it is a fact that Star Wars: Episode 8 will absolutely dethrone Justice League ?
 
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