What can the DCEU learn from Wonder Woman?

[FunkMiller]

Make the main character likeable and little else matters

Thats been the key ingredient to Marvel films and Wonder Woman nailed it, thus the praise it got.

What? You're suggesting that for a movie based on the most popular superheroes in history, you should actually make them likeable for the film to be successful?

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Miller did sacrifice Superman on the alter of Batman and it sux that so many people worship at that alter. I credit Zack with at least trying to call a little bs to this notion.

 

[metaphysician]

And more recent stories have pretty much drowned that kitten in the river. Later stories had her as just using that as con to rob the johns.
Batman Returns gave Catwoman a different origin that the average Joe is a lot more familiar with. The Catwoman movie gave her some bizarre magical origin.
The animated series never really gave her an origin. In TDKR Catwoman show up fully formed. And now on Gotham Selina is just a street kid who from the
looks of the Gotham season finale is already about to be Catwoman.
So I say everyone but the hard core Frank Miller fans have either forgotten all about it or never knew about it in the first place.

I give credit to the Adam West Batman TV show, actually. It established an Iconic Catwoman in the general audience mind, which has helped keep anything too direly divergent from gaining much foothold.

 

[Silly Cat]

I think the best lesson the DCEU can learn from this is that simplicity can sometimes make more of a statement then complexity. I just got the feeling with Wonder Woman the studio said "ok time to go back to he basics, let's just tell a great story" and by doing that they got a great movie.

I think they were trying to be too philosophical with MOS and BVS, and by doing so they lost track of the characters by focusing too much on making a statement.

And I say that as someone who loves MOS and likes BVS, but acknowledges that they have their problems...especially BVS which I feel had a good story buried underneath too much philosophical mumbo jumbo.

Most of the time it's the little things that can say the most...like Diana's walk across No Mans Land. That scene said more about what it means to be a hero, then any grandiose speech ever could.

So my message to the studio is this...don't focus so much on making a statement, focus on your characters and trust me the philosophical moments will come, but they won't be forced and they won't overwhelm your characters journey.

 

[Iceman]

Yes. It's also get the basics totally right first with an enjoyable film and a great story and relationships between your major characters before spending too much time shooting for the stars with heavy themes, commentary, symbolism, philosophy etc.

 

[DeadPresident]

As much as I like BvS for its ambition I have to agree, simpler story-telling is a far safer approach for these movies. Snyder effectively attempted a Freudian deconstruction of the behavioral manifestations of three men and their parental relationships wrapped in a Christ/Moses allegory with sprinkles of fan service and world building - it's an almost unachievable balance to try and strike.

Having a simple and endearing story is crucial and I hope JL manages that, and above all else the story needs to at some stage return Supes to his rightful place in the DCEU after his passive exploration in BvS.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

As much as I like BvS for its ambition I have to agree, simpler story-telling is a far safer approach for these movies. Snyder effectively attempted a Freudian deconstruction of the behavioral manifestations of three men and their parental relationships wrapped in a Christ/Moses allegory with sprinkles of fan service and world building - it's an almost unachievable balance to try and strike.

Having a simple and endearing story is crucial and I hope JL manages that, and above all else the story needs to at some stage return Supes to his rightful place in the DCEU after his passive exploration in BvS.

I think the difference is that Zack Snyder had a story first and tried to fit the characters into his story, whether they were a good fit or not.
While Patty Jenkins had a character first and built a story around the character. If you don't like the characters, no one cares about the story.

 

[DeadPresident]

I think the difference is that Zack Snyder had a story first and tried to fit the characters into his story, whether they were a good fit or not.
While Patty Jenkins had a character first and built a story around the character. If you don't like the characters, no one cares about the story.

Sure, that's a fair assessment. IMO there were too many balls being juggled in BvS that meant it was incredibly unlikely to be possible to do a "simple" linear story. I could see the attempted character analysis working if Bruce/Clark were the focal points of the story, but there was too much noise in regard to other aspects of the story to achieve that. I also think origins stories are easier to pull off in general from a narrative perspective, BvS was a different animal entirely.

While it's a movie I enjoy, upon subsequent viewings the shortfalls become a lot clearer to me. At the end of the day I think there was way too much pressure on BvS to achieve so many different things that it attempted a few of them but didn't adequately achieve any. It was supposed to be an MoS2, it was supposed to be a World's Finest movie, it was supposed a Trinity movie, supposed to be a soft intro into JL, etc, etc.

But as you mentioned about the characters, I think the biggest criticism I have of the story is the lack of agency regarding Supes. The audience is supposed to care about him and Batman, and I'm not sure that came across well until far too late in the movie.

 

[Silly Cat]

Sure, that's a fair assessment. IMO there were too many balls being juggled in BvS that meant it was incredibly unlikely to be possible to do a "simple" linear story. I could see the attempted character analysis working if Bruce/Clark were the focal points of the story, but there was too much noise in regard to other aspects of the story to achieve that. I also think origins stories are easier to pull off in general from a narrative perspective, BvS was a different animal entirely.

While it's a movie I enjoy, upon subsequent viewings the shortfalls become a lot clearer to me. At the end of the day I think there was way too much pressure on BvS to achieve so many different things that it attempted a few of them but didn't adequately achieve any. It was supposed to be an MoS2, it was supposed to be a World's Finest movie, it was supposed a Trinity movie, supposed to be a soft intro into JL, etc, etc.

But as you mentioned about the characters, I think the biggest criticism I have of the story is the lack of agency regarding Supes. The audience is supposed to care about him and Batman, and I'm not sure that came across well until far too late in the movie.

I cared about Supes, I may be in the minority but MOS was the film that made me love Superman, whom I never cared about before. So despite being a Batman fan since childhood I actually found myself rooting for Supes throughout the movie.

My problem with BVS was not so much the characters, it was just the whole film felt like it was trying too hard to be everything at once, trying too hard to make some philosophical statement about what it means to be a hero... that it lost its direction. Too many ingredients spoiled the soup, so to speak, I felt their was a good film buried somewhere underneath their.

But anyway I'm hopeful now for the future of the DCEU, so long as they take a page from the success of Wonder Woman and keep things simple. Let Superman be Superman, let Batman be Batman, and let the film be a Superhero film, etc. And we all know you can tell a Superhero film without becoming Marvel, Wonder Woman was the perfect balance of darkness and light, keep that tone and I see nothing but great films in the future for the DCEU.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I'm not saying simple is necessarily better, but I find that some of the best movies
tend to have simple plots and great characters.

The Great Escape-A group plans an escape attempt on a high security compound designed to monitor such potential escapists.

Bridge on the River Kwai-A man debates whether or not to cooperate with the Japanese to build a bridge during WWII.

Jaws-Sheriff Brody has a great white problem.

Seven Samurai-A bunch of samurai must protect villagers from bandits. Remade as the Magnificent 7.
Which was also remade and parodied.

Point is, I think characters are what make people remember movies, and plots are responsible for the "forward motion."
Which is important, but not as important as creating great characters.

 

[-Arya-]

I don't have high hopes for Justice League but if they can just let these characters be themselves in the movie, that can go a long way. And with Whedon in charge of the final editing, we can hopefully avoid a Suicide Squad situation.

 

[DeadPresident]

I don't have high hopes for Justice League but if they can just let these characters be themselves in the movie, that can go a long way. And with Whedon in charge of the final editing, we can hopefully avoid a Suicide Squad situation.

I'm struggling to see what correlation those two have with each other…?

 

[DeadPresident]

I cared about Supes, I may be in the minority but MOS was the film that made me love Superman, whom I never cared about before. So despite being a Batman fan since childhood I actually found myself rooting for Supes throughout the movie.

My problem with BVS was not so much the characters, it was just the whole film felt like it was trying too hard to be everything at once, trying too hard to make some philosophical statement about what it means to be a hero... that it lost its direction. Too many ingredients spoiled the soup, so to speak, I felt their was a good film buried somewhere underneath their.

But anyway I'm hopeful now for the future of the DCEU, so long as they take a page from the success of Wonder Woman and keep things simple. Let Superman be Superman, let Batman be Batman, and let the film be a Superhero film, etc. And we all know you can tell a Superhero film without becoming Marvel, Wonder Woman was the perfect balance of darkness and light, keep that tone and I see nothing but great films in the future for the DCEU.

For sure, I cared about Supes as well - I just feel like he should've been more of an active participant in the movie rather than (what it felt like to me at times) a subject of study.

But yeah, I'd agree, the movie was thematically heavy and while certain parts landed I feel like some didn't. IMO simplicity is better, all this meta-meta-meta storytelling is getting a bit old, just good conventionally enjoyable stories with compelling characters is fine.

 

[-Arya-]

I'm struggling to see what correlation those two have with each other…?

Whedon is doing the editing and not a movie trailer company.

 

[DeadPresident]

Whedon is doing the editing and not a movie trailer company.

Riiiiiight…And the movies also have almost none of the same creative team behind them…? You could've gone with "The editing will be better"…but, alas…This forum is going to get all the mileage out of the Whedon thing it possibly can.

 

[jmc]

Sure, that's a fair assessment. IMO there were too many balls being juggled in BvS that meant it was incredibly unlikely to be possible to do a "simple" linear story. I could see the attempted character analysis working if Bruce/Clark were the focal points of the story, but there was too much noise in regard to other aspects of the story to achieve that. I also think origins stories are easier to pull off in general from a narrative perspective, BvS was a different animal entirely.

While it's a movie I enjoy, upon subsequent viewings the shortfalls become a lot clearer to me. At the end of the day I think there was way too much pressure on BvS to achieve so many different things that it attempted a few of them but didn't adequately achieve any. It was supposed to be an MoS2, it was supposed to be a World's Finest movie, it was supposed a Trinity movie, supposed to be a soft intro into JL, etc, etc.

But as you mentioned about the characters, I think the biggest criticism I have of the story is the lack of agency regarding Supes. The audience is supposed to care about him and Batman, and I'm not sure that came across well until far too late in the movie.

And the worst thing about it was there was no discernible difference between the two characters, zero contrast. I still believe BvS was a film that was never going to work regardless of who was in charge because it needed the characters to have a history together to make it meaningful. Wonder Woman worked because you didn't need to know who she was.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

And the worst thing about it was there was no discernible difference between the two characters, zero contrast. I still believe BvS was a film that was never going to work regardless of who was in charge because it needed the characters to have a history together to make it meaningful. Wonder Woman worked because you didn't need to know who she was.

Maybe it could have been
like a Superman/Batman movie and deal with them meeting and learning about each other. As opposed to having them meet then fight.

 

[Dark Raven]

BvS was the Dark Knight v the Dark Man of Steel.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

***cough***

I'll just leave this here...

[YT]w-QhdzQo66o[/YT]

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I'm not saying simple is necessarily better, but I find that some of the best movies
tend to have simple plots and great characters.

The Great Escape-A group plans an escape attempt on a high security compound designed to monitor such potential escapists.

Bridge on the River Kwai-A man debates whether or not to cooperate with the Japanese to build a bridge during WWII.

Jaws-Sheriff Brody has a great white problem.

Seven Samurai-A bunch of samurai must protect villagers from bandits. Remade as the Magnificent 7.
Which was also remade and parodied.

Point is, I think characters are what make people remember movies, and plots are responsible for the "forward motion."
Which is important, but not as important as creating great characters.

Even with a movie like Suicide Squad, which had a plot that made no sense other than a team is formed, they go to some place for no particular reason and kill a bunch of spider men, go to another place for no reason
and kill more spider men, and then go somewhere else and kill some CGI thing, it was still fun to watch because Deadshot and Harley Quinn were fun to watch.

 

[FunkMiller]

***cough***

I'll just leave this here...

[YT]w-QhdzQo66o[/YT]

That's quite brilliant. Absolutely nails on the head where the difference between the DCEU and the MCU should be. The MCU movies lack sincerity. With WW and onwards, maybe the DCEU can be different. I hope Whedon appreciates this, and listens to Patty Jenkins!

 

[Silly Cat]

That's quite brilliant. Absolutely nails on the head where the difference between the DCEU and the MCU should be. The MCU movies lack sincerity. With WW and onwards, maybe the DCEU can be different. I hope Whedon appreciates this, and listens to Patty Jenkins!

While I enjoy the MCU films, my biggest problem with them is that they over-do it on the jokes. I agree with that video 100%, undercutting your dramatic moments with jokes does nothing but pull the audience out of the film, instead of letting them FEEL the moment with the character suddenly we are reminded we are watching a movie again.

That's a problem with the MCU that I feel has gotten worse in recent years ever since Guardians of the Galaxy came out and now every film feels like it needs to have these *wink at the audience* moments. While the DCEU has struggled with trying to find the right balance of darkness/humor (and I think has finally nailed it with Wonder Woman) I respect them for playing things straight and letting the epic heroic moments be epic and heroic without any character having to turn to the audience and wink.

Good video.

 

[BestGirl]

I've been down on the MCU since IM2 for the exact reason that the video gave. Only TWS has managed to avoid the bathos trap, and it's up there with IM as my favorite Marvel movie.

ETA: Actually, I think the first Cap movie also mostly managed to avoid bathos, but it was too rushed for me. It seems Captain America is the only character Marvel isn't afraid to explore pathos with for some reason. Anyway, here's hoping WB doesn't make the mistake of taking what worked for WW (its humor) and turning it up to eleven.