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Discussion in 'The Dark Knight' started by batman1, Jun 2, 2014.
The fantastic villains, great soundtrack, directing, cinematography, characters, messages, story and the fact even Marvel fans who think it's "overrated (and then nitpick flaws about their films)" would give the movie an 8, even if there is more than Joker in the film, like "Christopher Nolan" name himself.
Just for me it's one of the greatest cinematic experiences I've ever had.
I saw it with a friend who is not into comics (or the genre) at all, and he thought it was incredible.
I find myself thinking about many quotes and scenes quite a bit just randomly. I watch the film probably 2 or 3 times a month and have for a while now. Not necessarily always sitting down and watching it, but I find myself putting it on while doing other things. I do the same with Batman Begins and a couple other films, but not as much as I do with TDK. It's truly a film I never get tired of.
Just watched the last 30 minutes f TDK while babysitting our dogs. This film is puremagic...
and earlier I watched a little of Batman Forever ( now on Netflix). Wow, that makes TDK look even better. I'm still impressed by the effects for Dent's disfigurement- they hold up even 12 years later, along with pretty much everything else.
Love this film, definitely in my top 3 of all time.
I don't really get why some internet batman stans, at least the ones on twitter, try to tear this film and the trilogy as a whole down by trying to rewrite the enormous impact it had. I'm seeing this trend happen with not just TDK trilogy. don't get me wrong, I still see this trilogy getting a ton of praise, but there's always gotta be sections of the internet that try to tear down the iconic status all 3 films have rightfully achieved.
It's just being contrarian for the sake of it. I firmly believe specific things in music and entertainment, whether you like them or not, deserve a certain level of respect and admiration.
For the comic book genre, TDK trilogy as a whole, and TDK specifically, is one of those. It's not without faults but taking everything into consideration, what it did for the image of the comic book movie (for better and worse), for Batman as a character, globally in terms of success and impact...there's no question it deserves a revered, rarefied air. IMO, only Infinity War has earned a seat at that table since...
I think I'm just getting old, but I realize I can't stand 95% of Twitter fandom. It just dumbs down the conversation to a painful degree. Boards like this were and are a better venue to engage with fans. You can have in-depth conversations, and I feel like it's coming from a more genuine place most of the time.
Twitter rewards people posting hot takes for attention, profile clicks and followers. It's a toxic platform, IMO.
Agreed. I mean, I'm sure some of the Twitter fandom is cool and all, but I've noticed lots of them are on the young side, being in their very early 20s or late teens. The same people who ignore the Nolan trilogy or think it's overrated also call BVS a masterpiece. It's not the difference of opinion that gets me, but rather that, as you said, everything is a hot take. I always appreciate a different view on things, but I don't appreciate the "rewriting of the past" when it comes to certain things.
I find my Twitter experience to be really good and clean but then I would stop following anyone who put out things I didn’t like and I also switch off as soon as I see a comment I don’t like. I probably don’t see that darker 95% a whole lot as a result. The remaining 5% has been quite pleasant since I joined.
Yup, age is definitely a factor. I suspect a lot of some of these younger fans, whether they're Snyder/Batfleck stans, or people who are devoting their entire online presence to hype for The Batman just don't want the thing they love to be in the shadow of something that made such a cultural impact and had so much widespread acclaim. So it's probably just a way of rebelling against the "status quo". I still would prefer an actual conversation with opposing viewpoints rather than something like..."Batman Forever is better than The Dark Knight. Fight me." It's just like....ugh, ok. This is what we're doing now?
At the same time, it's not unique to now. You got back to Batman '89, and dumping on the Adam West series was the cool thing to do, and then same thing happened to Burton's Batman when Batman Begins came out.
Absolutely. I mean, those same people I see bring up Andrew Garfields Spider-Man, so it's pretty easy to estimate that back in 2012 they were at least 10, while I was 19 haha. Age is certainly a big factor, but as you said, it's always been this way. As you know, I'm incredibly hyped for The Batman, more than any other CBM. I truly believe The Batman has the potential to be something very very special. And I was also there for TDK trilogy and I remember very very vividly the pop culture impact it had online, in the media, and even among students and teachers at my high school. there's still yet to be a movie since TDK to hit me at the cinema like that one did. So It'll always feel jarring to see people do a 180 on those movies, TDK in particular. But it's also part of the effect of different generations. when TDK came out, I really felt it made Batman 1989 look very weak in comparison, even though I'm still a fan of the Burton movies.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that different opinions are fine, but whenever i hear "TDK trilogy wasn't an accurate Batman adaption" from the same people who act like the Snyder stuff is gold just makes me wince. and then to be told I should read a comic, even though I've read hundreds of Batman stories, it just makes me feel slightly annoyed haha. like, I'm not saying the Nolan stuff was 110% accurate, but it's far more accurate than any of the live action adaptions that came before or since. Matt Reeves vision seems to be respecting the source material very much while also doing it's own thing, which is also fantastic to hear. Whether or not The Batman matches, or exceeds the Nolan trilogy remains to be seen, but regardless, I don't think people should downplay the impact the trilogy had as a whole.
The important thing to keep in mind is that no version of Batman exists in a vacuum.
TDK Trilogy could have never existed without Burton (and Schumacher for that matter). Similarly Reeves' version could have never happened without TDK Trilogy laying the groundwork. All the depictions influence one another in terms of the choices they make-- either because something has already been done well, or something hasn't been tackled yet, etc. One version feeds into the next in that way. It also raised the bar for what people expect out of a Batman film, it was the first (and one of the only) times the genre had legit Oscar-cred, to the point that it was credited for getting more Best Picture nominees added post-2009.
Its legacy is pretty clear, regardless of how anyone might want to try to rewrite history. Eventually, these kids will wisen up and see the bigger picture if they truly want to be a fan that appreciates a character with a rich cinematic history, rather than just a stan for the latest version. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a favorite...but yeah, certain things just deserve respect.
Well said, my friend, like always. I couldn't have articulated that any better haha.
I think it's important to always acknowledge what came before in all circumstances, good or bad. As we head into Reeves vision, I will continue to do the same for my boy Nolan while also looking ahead. It's a good time to be a Batman fan.
In 10 years when a new Batman reboot is on the horizon, there will be people who went to the cinema to see Batman for the first time via Robert Pattinson. Some of them (and our generation & older) will reject the newer supernatural horror Batman (lets just say that’s the direction). Some will rep it as THE Batman they’ve always wanted to see on the big screen. Folks get triggered because Batman means different things to ppl.
It goes in cycles. It’s never gonna stop. Snyder fans are now hating on the Reeves movie. Everything becomes a competition because society (I’m not Jared I swear!) has brainwashed us into thinking art is a sport. I’ve done my share of pitting one against the other too. So I’m not innocent either.
At the end of the day we gotta accept that there will be a 2030’s reboot (maybe two for all we know). Then we’ll have the 2040’s etc. In 20 or 30 years we’ll look back and see the bigger picture again like some of us do now in this post-TDK Trilogy era. Each version is valid and offers something new. One makes way for the other like Batlobster said. Quality dips back and forth but at least we’ll have variety. Pattinson will be in his 50’s and his Batman will be old news just like Bale’s Batman is now.
It also goes back to what Guillermo Del Toro said. Paraphrasing but “we all have our Jesus, yours can be loving and understanding but mine can be vengeful & unforgiving. It’s the same with Batman. We all have our Batman”. So that’s another reason why we see online wars about Burton, Schumacher, Nolan, Snyder, Reeves. Fans instigate each other because the different genres and eras are reflected in each new movie iteration. Golden age, silver, bronze, modern, whatever you want to call each era, you see it every time a new director takes charge.
The problem right now is most ppl online can’t accept multiple things at once. It’s weird AF. It’s the generation of ABSOLUTES. It’s one way or nothing. “My way or the highway”.
I agree with you guys but then I look at myself.
Without question, I've seen B89 more times than any other film in my life. It's the only film my whole family went to see during my childhood, it was our first VHS tape, it was one of the few things me and my father would do together religiously. From then, to DVD, to Blu ray to 4k I've seen and owned every iteration. I can quote it almost verbatim, I never thought anything would top it!
Then TDK came out. It wasn't anything I had to think about or mull over either. As soon as I left the theater I understood what I had just seen. Different strokes, different folks and all that but true classics and cultural phenomenons can exist in the same stratosphere without occupying the same space. I know what B89 has meant to me throughout my life, and to the genre as a whole. And while I still prefer Keaton in the cowl, I also recognize the better film between the two.
If somehow The Batman usurps both TDK and B89 I would hope even keeled individuals can call it for what it is, but also appreciate yet another awesome take on the character. I never understood the problem with enjoying multiple versions of something, if nothing else there's just more to enjoy. I like things about MCU Hulk, Tv show Hulk, TIH and Ang Lee's Hulk. I'm still shocked he's had that many opportunities in tv and film. It's the exact opposite of a problem...
Oh no doubt. I'm not discounting the possibility that The Batman could come along and become the new definitive. Or at least rival what came before and be in that same stratosphere.
But yeah, it's a walk and chew bubblegum at the same time type of thing. That could happen, but it wouldn't make TDK retroactively suck in the same way TDK didn't make Batman 89 retroactively suck. I don't think the world was ready for something like TDK in 1989 personally, anyway. Batman represented something completely different in pop culture outside of the comics world until Batman 89 fundamentally changed that perspective. That's what I mean about the no version exists in a vacuum thing. I think Nolan's trilogy took that a step further and showed that these films could be treated like "real" film genres and engage the audience on that level. Now we've already seen films like Logan and Joker walk through that door. The Batman seems to be doing the same, and taking the character into the realm of a gritty detective/noir film, which is basically the equivalent of putting butter on bread. The potential there is obvious.
However, that won't change the fact that I think the 'Star Wars/007', classic 70s/80s blockbuster approach to the character that told a fleshed out origin story was every bit as valid a way to approach the character and extremely satisfying to see laid out by a director with a strong vision that committed to selling the reality of what you were seeing on screen. Essentially the modern version of Denny O'Neil Batman through the lens of the golden age of blockbusters.
I guess I'm just at a place in my fandom where I'm happy to embrace all (well, most) of it and thankful that I latched onto the character who's had some of the most varied and interesting depictions. I've become a firm believer that this is the secret sauce that has allowed Batman to thrive in way some characters haven't over the years.
All of you make fantastic points. I definitely think there's a tribal mindset with these things, and a lot of it has to do with feeling very personal about a specific version that meant a lot to you. when TDK released, I honestly was at a loss for words for how blown away I was. I hadn't seen anything like it prior, and it totally exceeded my expectations, as much as I had LOVED Batman Begins. once that trilogy ended, and Affleck was announced as Batman in 2013, I actually wasn't totally against it and kept an open mind. That obviously ended up being a train wreck for me, but I remember being excited seeing him in the suit for the first time despite end up hating the movie haha.
I think a lot of times, as I said, we just hold onto the specific experience that had an enormous impact on us. TDK trilogy did that for me, as did the Raimi Spider-Man trilogy, which I still think by far and away the best live action adaption of Spider-Man. And it's totally okay to accept if a new version surpasses those, and while that hasn't happened yet for either series, It definitely seems like the potential for Reeves vision to rival Nolans is there if all the cards line up. And I'll gladly admit it if it does, while still loving the Nolan films for the impact they had, for the respect it showed the characters, and what they accomplished as a whole. TDK was just added to the library of congress, and I think that right there signifies the impact the film has had as a whole and will last the test of time.
In some ways you can look at Burton’s Batman like a golden age Batman. Of course it’s decked out with Burton’s fairytale style. But it was like they were going back to 1939 in how everyone dresses. Gordon & Alfred are surface level, Batman might even be killing criminals in the shadows.
The silver age seems to be represented in the Schumacher movies. More sci fi ideas, brighter, goofier approach. They even try to remake the 60’s series once Joel gets to George. Of course the 90’s wasn’t the time and it falls flat compared to Adam West.
Nolan then comes in with his cherry picking approach, granted you see comics from many decades used as an influence (Frank Miller included) but there’s a stronger Bronze Age vibe going on. Globetrotting, foreign Bond villains & Lucius Fox used as Bruce Wayne’s Q providing ridiculous technology. It’s back to dark, grittier stories but with more fleshed out supporting characters. Denny O’Neill is a huge influence.
Snyder comes in with the 80’s Frank Miller approach. Full on. He makes some adjustments to fit his Batman into a Justice League but Zack is obsessed with DKR so it spills all over his shared universe. Of course he brings that modern video game style into the visual as well, which goes over well with that crowd.
So what is Reeves gonna do? Is he diving into the Johns/Bermejo/Snyder comics from the last decade? Batman: The Animated Series from the 90’s? The Loeb/Cooke/Brubaker comics from the late 90’s/early 2000’s?
It definitely feels likes Reeves is combining elements from the Bermejo/Snyder parts of the comics along with Batman TAS, Cooke, and Loeb stuff. The design aesthetic seems to be a combo of Bermejo/Cooke, and Batmans youthful appearance has been giving me strong Scott Snyder vibes. I can even feel a bit of Batman Earth One in some things.
Yup. I think there may be traces of Year One in the tv shows. Like Gotham P.D and Catwoman. But for the most part I see Matt Reeves getting away from the Frank Miller books.
With The Batman I see Earth One & Zero Year playing into it until they leave it behind in sequels. There’s no doubt that Matt and Mattson are huge BTAS fans too so that’s gonna be fresh. None of the past directors gave that show any thought.
The Ego and Long Halloween/Dark Victory influence is pretty much confirmed at this point. I think those Cooke/Loeb stories are here to stay. Design wise, I can see Bermejo’s art casting a larger & larger shadow over that trilogy.
But yeah my point is every new Batman reboot is a chance to follow the evolution of the source material. And that’s probably why fans become so divided. It’s a long history with many changes.
Agreed, and I've always said Batman had the luxury nobody else in DC (or most of Marvel) had, which is the best artists and writers doing their best work on him, through multiple generations. Each iteration you spoke about, some of the greatest talent of that time contributed to this single character. It certainly lends itself to various interpretations, now with the gloves off for moviemaking in this genre, we're seeing the same thing in film.
I guess my main point is something new isn't automatically better, but it's not necessarily worse either, for some reason fans of this medium can't seem to grasp that. TBH, if we're talking strictly faithfulness, Batman Forever has always been the strongest depiction of Bruce Wayne in that first series, certainly more than BR, and because of that I've always stood by that movie. I never thought it was as horrible as the masses did, it's nowhere near as bad to me as B&R. Ditto for Spiderman 3. And again, as much as I love B89, seeing TDK didn't make me like it any less, but I was still able to differentiate between them and recognize TDK for what it was. With the internet, everything from politics to movies apparently, has to create this divide like we're all rooting for "our team" at a sporting event. My only team is excellent work.
By the way, great and civil discussion guys. I was born here in the ashes of "permawhite" and all that ridiculous nonsense when TDK was being made. That same mentality, that fear of something new, is just as prevalent today as it was then. And just like then, I'll take the wait and see approach but make NO mistake, B89 and TDK will always be the gold standard in my eyes, I just want The Batman to pull up a seat at the table...
Looking back at this review for TDK. The push to get it a best pic nomination is something I really wish succeeded because it was, without question, the best film that year and easily a masterpiece. There really hasn't been a film like it since.
Dude, I was obsessed with this movie for nearly seven years - between 2008 and 2015 I would watch it nearly once a week ( while doing other things usually) sometimes when my wife was working night shifts I'd put it on repeat and fall asleep with it on. Probably saw it 300+ times at least ( every week, 52 times a year x 7 years, ouch ). I still watch it a couple of times a year at least, and if it's on tv and I start watching, I can't
stop. Yeah, it's weird but I own it.
To me TDK is the Godfather of cbms.
How do ppl watch any movie that often? That’s crazy. Props to you but...wowzers.
I think if I watched a movie that many times I would eventually start to hate it, even a movie that I loved.