The Dark Knight What makes TDK so special?

[BatLobster]

So having watched The Snyder Cut and the fact that we finally saw the DCEU Batman and Joker meet for the first time and it's their first on-screen interaction since TDK, I thought of a fitting analogy for TDK/the trilogy vs. the DCEU Batman.

With TDK, the very first scene (besides the prologue) that they shot, was Bale and Ledger in that interrogation room. It completely set the tone for the whole shoot and will go down as one of the most iconic comic book scenes of all time. The trilogy wasn't all planned out to the letter, it evolved over time, and obviously we were tragically denied getting any more of Ledger's Joker. But we still got a Batman/Joker story for the ages with one of their most iconic interactions in any medium.

With the DCEU, after all this planning and plotting out of Batman and Joker's history...what we ultimately get is a tacked-on, weird scene where Joker talks about giving Batman a reach around and Batman uses the F word. It might be the very last scene that Snyder shoots for his universe and it's this afterthought. Affleck and Leto aren't even really together and Leto is green screened in. Also, Leto is still an awful Joker.

That's where we were, and this is where we are. It really makes my head hurt that people actually want more of this, lol.

 

[Gothamsknight]

So having watched The Snyder Cut and the fact that we finally saw the DCEU Batman and Joker meet for the first time and it's their first on-screen interaction since TDK, I thought of a fitting analogy for TDK/the trilogy vs. the DCEU Batman.

With TDK, the very first scene (besides the prologue) that they shot, was Bale and Ledger in that interrogation room. It completely set the tone for the whole shoot and will go down as one of the most iconic comic book scenes of all time. The trilogy wasn't all planned out to the letter, it evolved over time, and obviously we were tragically denied getting any more of Ledger's Joker. But we still got a Batman/Joker story for the ages with one of their most iconic interactions in any medium.

With the DCEU, after all this planning and plotting out of Batman and Joker's history...what we ultimately get is a tacked-on, weird scene where Joker talks about giving Batman a reach around and Batman uses the F word. It might be the very last scene that Snyder shoots for his universe and it's this afterthought. Affleck and Leto aren't even really together and Leto is green screened in. Also, Leto is still an awful Joker.

That's where we were, and this is where we are. It really makes my head hurt that people actually want more of this, lol.

You and me both. The rivalry between both icons became even more iconic after TDK, and now, years later, it's treated as nothing special. As if it's there just to be there, with no purpose or meaning. I miss the TDK era, man. It was such a different time, and it was so special to witness how groundbreaking TDK was.

 

[CocoReturns]

^ TDK is a good crime drama in a world where 90 percent of superhero movies are franchise-based, campy, thinly scripted, and emotionally simplistic. While not perfect (just saying this goes into controversial territory) it is decently paced and showcases amazing performances, a memorable score, high stakes, rich characterization, and a mostly functional plot.

It packs weightiness to its tone (unlike BvS) and physicality to its action (unlike many MCU movies). It's a great film, which has been more tainted by fan reactions (number 4 on IMDB) than its actual flaws (a cinemasins video with TDK is less than 5 minutes long)

I think it's a masterpiece by blockbuster standards, but I find it lacking in GOAT standards (Seven Samurai, The Good the Bad and the Ugly, the Shawshank Redemption, etc )

So if I say it's overrated, it's only because it's higher ranked by fans than many better non-superhero movies. As a genre entry, it's probably the "definitive real-world" superhero movie.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

 

[CocoReturns]

^ I feel like the handheld Leto footage is "if I move the camera will people forget it's Leto?" and the answer is a resounding no. It's ironic that Batman's "I'm gonna kill you" feels more line with what the green Goblin would say than Batman

 

[shauner111]

I think you guys are being a little hard on it and I sense some bias. That scene wasn’t just about reacharound comments and f bombs. It’s about Robin and loss just as much as it is about making crude jokes. Yes it’s green screen. Yes, Leto is still the worst Joker (but an improved look and performance compared to 2016). But if you told me they were together in that shoot I would have believed you.

Would I like to see more? I don’t really care tbh. I’m good. But I would be looking forward to seeing Batman and Joker telling their side of the Robin death story (Zack confirmed this was the plan). And then showing us their perspective through flashback. So yeah I understand why ppl want to see more of those two. I just rather see Battinson and a new Joker.

Heath and Christian scenes were obviously better. But it’s not a fair comparison at all.

 

[BatLobster]

I just thought it was a bad scene, being totally honest here. I enjoyed the movie for the most part up until then. That nightmare scene was unnecessary, and only served to undercut everything that came before.

Batman saying "I will f**king kill you" is just the epitome of laughably cringe edgelord stuff that I might think was cool if I was 15. It's no different than the stupid "F*** Batman" moment on Titans.

I'm sorry, I can't give that a pass haha. Batman and Joker's first cinematic meetup since 2008 deserved better. I'm not saying it's fair to compare, but this scene just had so many things working against it for me. It felt inorganic and forced in every way. Both within the context of the film and within the scene itself.

Not to mention, we haven't seen Dick Grayson in live action in decades, arguably have never had a truly great version. And we'd only see him here to watch him get murdered. Hard pass! Power to anybody who loved his vision, congrats to Zack for getting to make his movie against all odds, but I'm so ready to move on and close this chapter of DC films.

 

[shauner111]

Although I agree that the final Knightmare scene (and the Lex/Deathstroke scene) were unnecessary, I did enjoy it as a dream sequence aka possible premonition. Which is why I’m ok with the F word. Bruce is dreaming so it’s really what he wants to say to Joker lol. Of course it’s edgy Snyder s**t but as a one-off and post-apocalyptic scene, I’m good with it.

I would have ended the whole movie on that Superman shirt rip towards the camera from the epilogue.

But I will say this, no B.S: I’ve seen ZSJL twice now, and it’s my favourite comic book movie I’ve seen since the Nolan films. As far as being both enjoyable & supplying the darkness that I crave in movies like this. Yes I even prefer it over Logan, Joker, Endgame and Winter Soldier. I genuinely think ZSJL is a good movie with expected flaws. I had a blast both times. Literally the best CBM I’ve seen in about 10 years. Zack’s best work. I get the complaints but I also understand the hype.

 

[BatLobster]

Although I agree that the final Knightmare scene (and the Lex/Deathstroke scene) were unnecessary, I did enjoy it as a dream sequence aka possible premonition. Which is why I’m ok with the F word. Bruce is dreaming so it’s really what he wants to say to Joker lol. Of course it’s edgy Snyder s**t but as a one-off and post-apocalyptic scene, I’m good with it.

I would have ended the whole movie on that Superman shirt rip towards the camera from the epilogue.

But I will say this, no B.S: I’ve seen ZSJL twice now, and it’s my favourite comic book movie I’ve seen since the Nolan films. As far as being both enjoyable & supplying the darkness that I crave in movies like this. Yes I even prefer it over Logan, Joker, Endgame and Winter Soldier. I genuinely think ZSJL is a good movie with expected flaws. I had a blast both times. Literally the best CBM I’ve seen in about 10 years. Zack’s best work. I get the complaints but I also understand the hype.

I'm glad you enjoyed it so much, man.

I'll say it's probably my favorite out of his trilogy and it's a shame we weren't just able to see that on an IMAX screen as intended. I still think Zack has 0 clue what to do with Superman, but he handled all of the other characters just fine here. There is a lot of entertainment value packed in, it's a lot of movie. Batman fares much better in this version and for that I am happy.

At the same time, that whole epilogue just left such a sour taste in my mouth and kind of served as a heavy-handed reminder of why I have not enjoyed his take on these characters for the most part and I'm just ready for it to be over. It was like he just couldn't quit while he was ahead and had to remind us "I was totes gonna get so edgy with this....if only they'd let me...". That really irks me, not gonna lie.

But, Nightmare aside, I agree with you that the movie achieved an enjoyable balance of weight/epic-ness and levity/entertainment.

 

[CondimentKing]

I didn't absolutely dislike the scene (I really like the way the camera goes into focus with the boy wonder line + whenever Leto gives off that creepy 2049 Wallace vibe works for me) but it is sort of crazy to think it's the first time the characters have properly met since TDK. I'm fine with the scene's existence although Leto's laugh is pretty annoying and it is definitely on brand for Snyder. The Knightmare stuff is sort of the only thing about Snyder's world I care about because it's so ridiculous I feel it fits his over the top dumb but fun style. The Knightmare scene in the middle of the movie was pretty wild. I'd definitely buy a comic that continued the Knightmare storyline. The f-bomb is edgy but I'm fine with it in that context too, like shauner.

I enjoyed ZSJL but mostly because I thought it was fun shlock. It was a surprisingly normal comic book movie but with over the top visuals, it makes sense why it's so much better received than the previous films. Was definitely surprised all the humour wasn't Whedon lol

Really happy for Snyder on an artistic and personal level regardless of my feelings on his recent work. It's a great story.

Anyways, TDK still my goat CBM although here's hoping The Batman surpasses it.

Edit: also, I sort of enjoy the unintentional idea that this Joker is just obnoxiously annoying - no wonder Batman went off the deep end dealing with that guy for 20 years lol

 

[Herofan]

With TDK, the very first scene (besides the prologue) that they shot, was Bale and Ledger in that interrogation room. It completely set the tone for the whole shoot and will go down as one of the most iconic comic book scenes of all time.

I did love the line "You have NOTHING to threaten me with."

 

[BatLobster]

I enjoyed ZSJL but mostly because I thought it was fun shlock. It was a surprisingly normal comic book movie but with over the top visuals, it makes sense why it's so much better received than the previous films. Was definitely surprised all the humour wasn't Whedon lol

Really happy for Snyder on an artistic and personal level regardless of my feelings on his recent work. It's a great story.

Anyways, TDK still my goat CBM although here's hoping The Batman surpasses it.

I can get on board with this take. Fun shlock, that's a great way to put it.

Ironically, the theatrical cut that was going out of its way to be *more* fun, ends up being less fun. Because it's so clearly forced and awkward. ZSJL is just the big bombastic superhero film it was always trying to be. The humor actually plays better because it's not crammed down your throat as much.

 

[CondimentKing]

100% agree. I was surprised by the humour, it def works way better than the theatrical. It was genuinely a fun watch, especially considering we've been lacking in comic book movies recently. Snyder goes all out, sometimes it's for good and sometimes it's for bad - here I think it mostly worked, although maybe not in the way he intended. It's been so long and since we're moving on with Pattinson the creative decisions didn't bother me as much as they did a couple of years ago.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The Snyder Cut was better than the theatrical version without question, and I was happy to see Snyder be able to release the version he intended and fulfill his version. The film was enjoyable to an extent, and I said it before, but I really liked Flash, Cyborg, Wonder Woman and Aquaman in it. It's probably Snyders best DC work overall. However, I still don't think the film was great, and for me, that's a problem. it's a good movie, but the Justice League should be so much more than that.

I see people say "it got the job done", but Justice League should be bigger than what it was. At it's core, right now, it's an enjoyable Comic Book flick with some fun banter and action scenes. For me, all of Snyders movies are ugly to look at. They just are, and the lack of color is off putting. Also, people bring up how interesting the Knightmare sequence is. Here's my thing, the Knightmare sequence is intended to show an alternate dream like future where Superman is evil, Batman straight up doesn't give a **** anymore, Lois is dead, Harley is killed by Batman, and Bats throws F bombs like it's nothing. the F bomb thing wouldn't bother me nearly as much if everything else with Snyders interpretation of the character hadn't felt so forced to be a certain way for the sake of it. I don't get why I'm supposed to care about about future movies that involve an alternate future with an evil Superman and darker Batman when both have pretty much already been that in the present. The knightmare seen, out of context is cool to look at it, but the scene itself with Joker doesn't really serve a purpose other than to give Snyder excuse to push the "edge" even further without being dogged on. The Batfleck/Joker interaction itself is cool when you look at it, but what does it mean exactly? Why should I care what history these 2 have had, or the "killing threats" when, the way this Batman has been written, he should've killed the Joker years ago. There's a lot of people who don't mind that, and seem to enjoy indulging in that, which is fine.

Snyder clearly has a fanbase that wants more of that, but there really is no interesting Batman/Joker relationship when it comes to those 2 versions of the characters. I feel like people forget that Batman/Jokers relationship was so interesting because even after the horrible things Joker did, Batman still wouldn't kill him. Joker is a force of nature, a force that keeps coming no matter what and with a person like Batman, who is the other side of that theatrical coin that adheres to his ideals so strongly, it's a battle for eternity.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit haha. It's just I've seen people call their confrontation the best scene between the two in CBM history, and I literally can't fathom how. The interrogation scene from TDK is still my favorite scene in a comic book movie ever. It's iconic and perfectly establishes who/what these 2 forces of nature are. The Knightmare sequence is just intended to feel cool.

Overall, I'm happy Snyder got to finish his cut, as I said, and I enjoyed it for what it was even if I'm not really on board with Snyders vision. I think I gave it a 6.5/10? I'm looking forward to The Flash movie, and it would be cool to see more Cyborg at some point.

TDK is easily still my favorite comic book movie of all time, and with Matt Reeves The Batman on the horizon, I hope we all can finally move on. The movie is shaping up to be something special, and has the potential to be on the level of Nolan, and maybe, just maybe, surpass even TDK. That remains to be seen, and it's no easy feat, but regardless, I'm incredibly hyped.

 

[The Lazarus Pit]

ZSJL is the first superhero movie in a long time that has the same spark that TDK had. There’s something intangible about that X factor that makes superhero movies special. This one feels like almost a sequel to TDK.

The Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Daredevil are 3 Marvel properties that have traces of that X factor, but not to the degree of ZSJL or TDK. Those two are up there for me at the top.

 

[shauner111]

I think the Martian Manhunter scenes were awkward. I’d love to see the original scene with Bruce (different scene altogether) and Green Lantern at the end instead. But besides the nice character shots in the epilogue with Victor’s dad doing voiceover, the rest of the epilogue was too “setup-y” for me.

People want Manganiello to lead a Deathstroke movie? They want him to also be a main Batman villain? What did he do to convince ppl that he can handle that?

Do I want to see more of that Mad Max world? Yes. As long as they use Mandalorian tech because that green screen isn’t gonna cut it for 3 hours. But the reason I like the Knightmare stuff is 1) it’s a what-if scenario, not a set in stone story where evil Superman lurks around for 4 hours and Batman is walking around with a shotgun/duster. 2) we get Leto’s Joker in small doses. Otherwise it’ll just be annoying as hell watching Leto and Heard as “main characters”.

@BatLobster i get what you’re saying with the edginess of Zack’s prologue being a eye roller. But I can accept it in that context. His plans for a third Justice League was to have Superman leading the League against Darkseid. Which is nice. But it would take several years to get to that point, and many hours of storyline later. The way ZSJL ended, you’d think they would just go & do that next. Everyone had an arc. Besides Bruce’s dream, it was quite the happy ending. Why take 3 steps backwards by bringing Batman back to his BvS days, and worse for Superman? They arrived at this inspiring place finally, so run with it! Give us a uplifting Superman movie and a send off for Batfleck in Flash that isn’t so grim. A Wonder Woman movie where Diana travels back to Themyscira.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The Desthstroke movie is another thing. I read yesterday that afflecks film would have had him and Deathstroke going at it with the help of Batgirl. But aside from a well choreographed fight scene, how good would it have been? I feel like we're at a point where people just wants stuff that looks cool instead of an interesting story. Not saying it wouldn't have been cool, because it may have, but it seems like people just want a live action version of the CGI arkham game trailers haha.

Btw, regarding the DCEU, I've liked/loved the majority of the movies in the DCEU that Snyder hasn't directed. Loved Wonder Woman, loved Shazam, loved Joker, really really liked Aquaman, really liked Birds of Prey, etc. All of those I found really awesome.

 

[CondimentKing]

Deathstroke as a main Batman movie villain is unbelievably boring to me. I feel like a lot of people love this iteration of Batman so much because he looks cool and was going to fight against Big Macho Mercenary Man who kills everyone he loves. Wow, page turning stuff right there, no thanks. I get the appeal of having a hardened Batman but the potential was so wasted that I have zero interest in more of it

 

[BatLobster]

The Snyder Cut was better than the theatrical version without question, and I was happy to see Snyder be able to release the version he intended and fulfill his version. The film was enjoyable to an extent, and I said it before, but I really liked Flash, Cyborg, Wonder Woman and Aquaman in it. It's probably Snyders best DC work overall. However, I still don't think the film was great, and for me, that's a problem. it's a good movie, but the Justice League should be so much more than that.

I see people say "it got the job done", but Justice League should be bigger than what it was. At it's core, right now, it's an enjoyable Comic Book flick with some fun banter and action scenes. For me, all of Snyders movies are ugly to look at. They just are, and the lack of color is off putting. Also, people bring up how interesting the Knightmare sequence is. Here's my thing, the Knightmare sequence is intended to show an alternate dream like future where Superman is evil, Batman straight up doesn't give a **** anymore, Lois is dead, Harley is killed by Batman, and Bats throws F bombs like it's nothing. the F bomb thing wouldn't bother me nearly as much if everything else with Snyders interpretation of the character hadn't felt so forced to be a certain way for the sake of it. I don't get why I'm supposed to care about about future movies that involve an alternate future with an evil Superman and darker Batman when both have pretty much already been that in the present. The knightmare seen, out of context is cool to look at it, but the scene itself with Joker doesn't really serve a purpose other than to give Snyder excuse to push the "edge" even further without being dogged on. The Batfleck/Joker interaction itself is cool when you look at it, but what does it mean exactly? Why should I care what history these 2 have had, or the "killing threats" when, the way this Batman has been written, he should've killed the Joker years ago. There's a lot of people who don't mind that, and seem to enjoy indulging in that, which is fine.

Snyder clearly has a fanbase that wants more of that, but there really is no interesting Batman/Joker relationship when it comes to those 2 versions of the characters. I feel like people forget that Batman/Jokers relationship was so interesting because even after the horrible things Joker did, Batman still wouldn't kill him. Joker is a force of nature, a force that keeps coming no matter what and with a person like Batman, who is the other side of that theatrical coin that adheres to his ideals so strongly, it's a battle for eternity.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit haha. It's just I've seen people call their confrontation the best scene between the two in CBM history, and I literally can't fathom how. The interrogation scene from TDK is still my favorite scene in a comic book movie ever. It's iconic and perfectly establishes who/what these 2 forces of nature are. The Knightmare sequence is just intended to feel cool.

Overall, I'm happy Snyder got to finish his cut, as I said, and I enjoyed it for what it was even if I'm not really on board with Snyders vision. I think I gave it a 6.5/10? I'm looking forward to The Flash movie, and it would be cool to see more Cyborg at some point.

TDK is easily still my favorite comic book movie of all time, and with Matt Reeves The Batman on the horizon, I hope we all can finally move on. The movie is shaping up to be something special, and has the potential to be on the level of Nolan, and maybe, just maybe, surpass even TDK. That remains to be seen, and it's no easy feat, but regardless, I'm incredibly hyped.

Yup. I'm with you man. Maybe I'd be a bit more generous and give it a 7.5.

That's the thing, for all the hype, for all the buildup...I think the movie is...fine? "Pretty good", even?

But like, take away the fact that the movie is 4 hours long and what exactly is special about it? I'm not trying to take a dump on it or take away anyone's enjoyment, but I really just don't understand the hype other than the fact that this is a significant upgrade from the theatrical and people are excited about getting to see a director's true vision realized after studio shenanigans. That part I fully understand and am on board with. But then when I take a step back and try to look at it objectively, as its own film...

It has the same exact issue I have with first Avengers film. It's just going through all the inevitable motions to assemble the team and deal with an alien invasion. There are 0 surprises along the way, and the only surprises that are there feel awkward and weird, like the Martha Manhunter thing. Every beat just feels like, "OK yeah now this has to happen." For 4 friggin' hours!

There are also some things I actually think the theatrical cut had the right idea on. Interjecting a bit of drama between Bruce and Diana made sense. The obvious nature of the reshoots made it distracting, but I think it helped spice things up a bit. Once Bruce brings the team together, it just feels a bit eh. I never really buy into the stakes that there's any chance the team may not be able to work together or prevail. Even the first Avengers manages to get that part right. And the first Avengers film, for all the faults I have with it, at least feels like it's own self-contained film and not an advertisement for future movies.

I am willing to give it points for being ambitious, for having some artsy elements, for allowing the characters room to breathe, for striking a solid tonal balance and essentially not making any major missteps (until the epilogue) most of the way through. That's why I think it's fine/solid and a step up for Zack. But personally, I think he needs to take a break from superheroes. Stuff like Army of the Dead seems to be so much better suited to his sensibilities.

I would be more focusing on the positive if the conversation didn't immediately shift to #RestoreTheSnyderVerse as I feared it would. The combo of the gratuitous epilogue along with all the talk of reviving this whole thing, that's what's tainting it all for me. And Snyder is 100% leaning into it.

Deathstroke as a main Batman movie villain is unbelievably boring to me. I feel like a lot of people love this iteration of Batman so much because he looks cool and was going to fight against Big Macho Mercenary Man who kills everyone he loves. Wow, page turning stuff right there, no thanks. I get the appeal of having a hardened Batman but the potential was so wasted that I have zero interest in more of it

There's really no nice way to say it, but there is a distinct meat head-ish sort of approach to a lot of Snyder's DC stuff. And I get there's an audience for that. I'm not saying I don't like some mindless meat-head action movies, cause I do. I love me some 80s and 90s action movies. But after nearly a decade, I am ready to move on and explore some more interesting stories with these characters.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Yup. I'm with you man. Maybe I'd be a bit more generous and give it a 7.5.

That's the thing, for all the hype, for all the buildup...I think the movie is...fine? "Pretty good", even?

But like, take away the fact that the movie is 4 hours long and what exactly is special about it? I'm not trying to take a dump on it or take away anyone's enjoyment, but I really just don't understand the hype other than the fact that this is a significant upgrade from the theatrical and people are excited about getting to see a director's true vision realized after studio shenanigans. That part I fully understand and am on board with. But then when I take a step back and try to look at it objectively, as its own film...

It has the same exact issue I have with first Avengers film. It's just going through all the inevitable motions to assemble the team and deal with an alien invasion. There are 0 surprises along the way, and the only surprises that are there feel awkward and weird, like the Martha Manhunter thing. Every beat just feels like, "OK yeah now this has to happen." For 4 friggin' hours!

There are also some things I actually think the theatrical cut had the right idea on. Interjecting a bit of drama between Bruce and Diana made sense. The obvious nature of the reshoots made it distracting, but I think it helped spice things up a bit. Once Bruce brings the team together, it just feels a bit eh. I never really buy into the stakes that there's any chance the team may not be able to work together or prevail. Even the first Avengers manages to get that part right. And the first Avengers film, for all the faults I have with it, at least feels like it's own self-contained film and not an advertisement for future movies.

I am willing to give it points for being ambitious, for having some artsy elements, for allowing the characters room to breathe, for striking a solid tonal balance and essentially not making any major missteps (until the epilogue) most of the way through. That's why I think it's fine/solid and a step up for Zack. But personally, I think he needs to take a break from superheroes. Stuff like Army of the Dead seems to be so much better suited to his sensibilities.

I would be more focusing on the positive if the conversation didn't immediately shift to #RestoreTheSnyderVerse as I feared it would. The combo of the gratuitous epilogue along with all the talk of reviving this whole thing, that's what's tainting it all for me. And Snyder is 100% leaning into it.



There's really no nice way to say it, but there is a distinct meat head-ish sort of approach to a lot of Snyder's DC stuff. And I get there's an audience for that. I'm not saying I don't like some mindless meat-head action movies, cause I do. But after nearly a decade, I am ready to move on and explore some more interesting stories with these characters.

I may bump my score up to a 7/10, we'll see haha. But yeah, I feel like the only thing the 4 hours did was allow certain things to breathe better, but that isn't entirely a good thing. I mean, it makes me wonder how bad this may have been if it released in theaters with a shorter run time. And the first Avengers film, to me, still works overall and I never really found it boring, while at times I did with this, which surprisingly was some of the action scenes. I mean, I did enjoy the action, but the most "stakes" I felt in any of them was the really cool speed force sequence, which is probably my favorite in the film.

Also, I'm in total agreement of the Diana/Bruce dynamic. I remember only seeing Whedons cut once and it was at the cinema, but that scene of Bruce of Diana is something I liked and they could've built off of that.

The character development for Cyborg and Flash are my favorite parts of the movie without question. I said it before, but I was honestly shocked at how much I was impressed with Cyborg in Snyders cut. Which makes it even more of a shame that Snyders Batman and Superman are so bland and forgettable.

I don't think Snyder fans will ever stop asking for more. it's what I feared when this was announced, and it seems to be continuing. Wheres the end point? When is it enough? If Snyder gets JL2 and 3, next they'll want a Batfleck series. lol I've seen some make a mockup title for it called "The Batman" for afflecks series, completely disregarding Reeves film. And it's not about feeling "threatened" by more of that stuff, but I do think it's slightly disrespectful to what Reeves is trying to do considering he's literally trying to start a new trilogy. Watch, when the next trailer drops, so will the hashtags in the comments. From the same people who preach about "creative freedom".

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, the speed force sequences were genuinely cool. I can say that with no reservations. Highlight of the film action-wise, and Cyborg was the highlight of the film character-wise.

I appreciated that it felt like a truly balanced ensemble, and not just a "Batman and his superfriends" film that the theatrical cut sometimes felt like.

See, I have some nice things to say too!

But yeah, I mean I agree, after a certain point I do feel it's disrespectful to Reeves. Imagine how the Snyderbros would've felt during the buildup to BvS, a bunch of Nolanites made #RestoretheNolanverse trend and it built enough pressure for WB to bring back Nolan and Bale/JGL for a totally separate movie that had nothing to do with what Snyder was building?

Obviously, this would've never happened for many obvious reasons. But just imagine the shoe was on the other foot. They would feel threatened that this would be overshadowing Batfleck and the DC Universe. You can't convince me they wouldn't. They'd be complaining that Nolan has a stranglehold on DC, he had his chance, tired of realism, time to make room for the new, etc.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Yeah, the speed force sequences were genuinely cool. I can say that with no reservations. Highlight of the film action-wise, and Cyborg was the highlight of the film character-wise.

I appreciated that it felt like a truly balanced ensemble, and not just a "Batman and his superfriends" film that the theatrical cut sometimes felt like.

See, I have some things to say too!

But yeah, I mean I agree, after a certain point I do feel it's disrespectful to Reeves. Imagine how the Snyderbros would've felt during the buildup to BvS, a bunch of Nolanites made #RestoretheNolanverse trend and it built enough pressure for WB to bring back Nolan and Bale for a totally separate movie that had nothing to do with what Snyder was building?

Obviously, this would've never happened for many obvious reasons. But just imagine the shoe was on the other foot. They would feel threatened that this would be overshadowing Batfleck and the DC Universe. You can't convince me they wouldn't. They'd be complaining that Nolan has a stranglehold on DC, he had his chance, tired of realism, time to make room for the new, etc.

exactly lol. And I have to hear the "multiverse" excuse, but let's be real, this isn't the comics. This isn't the comics where you can have 5 different versions at once. Some of them will only accept the Reeves film if Affleck gets his own and that it's deemed the "definitive" version. The amount of entitlement I'm seeing this days is sickening. And nobody can tell me different, honestly. I've seen a number of them who have said they'd cancel Reeves film in favor of a Batfleck one.

Luckily, those people aren't the GA.

 

[Brother Jack]

Do I want to see more of that Mad Max world? Yes. As long as they use Mandalorian tech because that green screen isn’t gonna cut it for 3 hours. But the reason I like the Knightmare stuff is 1) it’s a what-if scenario, not a set in stone story where evil Superman lurks around for 4 hours and Batman is walking around with a shotgun/duster. 2) we get Leto’s Joker in small doses. Otherwise it’ll just be annoying as hell watching Leto and Heard as “main characters”.

I actually agree with this. The Knightmare scenes in both BVS and JL were egregious within the films they were in, but conceptually I thought they were honestly really interesting. A post-apocalyptic superhero movie hasn't really been done before (Logan comes close) and the whole thing was so aesthetically crazy and disturbing that I wanted to see more. It felt even more like pure, undiluted Snyder, and it was much easier for me to accept seeing Batman gun down people in that context than it was in the "main" continuity of BVS. It can be this clearly else-worlds sandbox where Snyder can just go off without messing with the mainline characterizations and storylines.

 

[shauner111]

Absolutely. But at the same time I don’t want to see Heard, Leto, constipated Cavill leading an entire movie while Gal/Jason only get 20 minutes of screentime. Imagine hash tagging for about 4 more years to get...that? And then you have to wait another few years just to see Zack bring back normie Supes, Wonder Woman and Aquaman. I’d rather move on to a Superman movie.

I feel like I’m crazy because I’m one of the only ppl who really enjoyed ZSJL but who is also satisfied with having this movie as the end of their team-ups.

 

[BatLobster]

Absolutely. But at the same time I don’t want to see Heard, Leto, constipated Cavill leading an entire movie while Gal/Jason only get 20 minutes of screentime. Imagine hash tagging for about 4 more years to get...that? And then you have to wait another few years just to see Zack bring back normie Supes, Wonder Woman and Aquaman. I’d rather move on to a Superman movie.

I feel like I’m crazy because I’m one of the only ppl who really enjoyed ZSJL but who is also satisfied with having this movie as the end of their team-ups.

Gosh, I really, really wanted to like Cavill, I thought he had moments of promise in MoS, but I'll be damned if you don't have a huge point there. I'll still wonder what another director could've brought out of him in a solo movie though. The guy wasn't given much to work with in his sequels, to be fair.

I say if we MUST do something more with this universe, throw $30-$50 million at Snyder and let him go crazy with an animated version that finishes his story. It could be a giant 2 part movie, or a miniseries. Throw the fans a bone, and we can all scratch that curiosity itch (if we want). Base it entirely on his drawings and storyboards and make it exactly the way he would've shot it if it were live action, only it's animated and you don't have to drag poor tired Ben back into the Bat-suit or plunge hundreds of millions more dollars into it. Or better yet do a comic run that maybe eventually becomes an animated film. There are ways to scratch "Elseword" itches that don't blatantly suck oxygen out of what they are trying to do with DC now. I just think there has to be a limit. It can't just be a free-for-all where the studio just cowers at every last fan demand. That's chaos.