What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

Discussion in 'Marvel's The Avengers' started by Thread Manager, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. ObakeTora

    ObakeTora vThe "real" Ghost-Tiger!v

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    HAHAHA!!!!! YEA ME TOO!! Avengers spoke to me!!!!!
     
    #26
  2. CoolCadaver49

    CoolCadaver49 Not a Hero...

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    Thank you, kindly. Guess the other guy didn't care to explain.
     
    #27
  3. Polux

    Polux Just some nut

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    As I said, I paid REAL CLOSE attention; found nothing...anyways, it doesn't change the fact that the movie is one of my all-time favorites and can't stop watching it repeatedly :woot:


    Polux
     
    #28
  4. pr0xyt0xin

    pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    Ironmans is no real question. He probably just hacked into their radio frequency anyway. Hulk didnt speak to anyone via radio comm. I dont remember if Thor did.

    But the rest, Cap, Hawkeye, Widow it could very well have been attached to their suits. Like movie set mics often are anyway.

    [​IMG]
     
    #29
  5. BullMcGiveny

    BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    I didn't like Captain America was this.

    I love Cap in the comics. I loved Cap in his own movie. The Avengers makes me think Whedon hates Cap or something.

    I also didn't like the fact that, if you think about it, the Avengers won by luck. Iron Man knocks out Selvig, by accident, before the Avengers have all gathered. Thor disarms Loki, by accident, before the Avengers have all gathered. Those two things are actually what saves the day.
     
    #30
  6. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    Actually, according to the extra scenes, the Avenger with most screentime was Captain America, the whole sequence of "Man out of Time" being taken out of the film
     
    #31
  7. BullMcGiveny

    BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    I know, but it isn't how long you're on, its what you do while you're on.

    His action, compared with Tony or Natasha, are underwhelming.
     
    #32
  8. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    You said that you thought Whedon hated Captain America, whereas I think it's completely the opposite.
     
    #33
  9. pr0xyt0xin

    pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    I think Cap was done well. And without the Thor v Hulk scene I think Thor wouldve been underwhelming. He needs some solid action screen-time in Thor 2 and Avengers 2
     
    #34
  10. BullMcGiveny

    BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Well, when he goes up against Loki, he makes a huge show, but ends up getting beaten silly. I understand that Cap has no chance against Loki, but there has to be a way for him to at least look good and put up a decent fight rather than getting knocked to the ground three times and having Black Widow comment "that guy's all over the place"

    Then there's the Hellicarier sequence. Thor and Hulk are having an epic battle, Natasha and Barton have a very tense fight, Tony uses his ingenuity to fix the Hellicarier and saved everyone's lives, and Steve... Does what Tony tells him... pulling levers.... gets into a fight with some mooks and loose, despite being a legendary soldier.

    And in the end, his battle orders prove to be irrelevant. Natasha is the one who thinks of closing the portal to stop the invasion. So much for being a tactical mastermind. And according to the commentary, they're all about to loose before the portal was closed.

    There's a bunch of other stuff in between as well.

    So to sum up, Cap needs to be saved three times, two of them from guys who are just random henchmen. He is also very nearly killed in the bank scene. So as a fighter, he isn't shown to be particularly competent. Certainly less than Black Widow.

    As a leader, he doesn't figure out what is needed to save the day, and Black Widow does that instead.

    He isn't the compassionate, inspirational mentor. Somehow, that falls to Tony, of all people.

    And he's no longer the self-sacrificing type.

    So what makes him one of Earth's mightiest heros? According to Whedon, what is it about Cap that makes him special?
     
    #35
  11. pr0xyt0xin

    pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    But... He told Hulk to smash. :( lol.

    Wow that is certainly a disheartening analysis. The way I see it, he stood up to Loki when no one else could (IM was en route), saved a bank full of people, ordered the police to protect the citizens rather than try to be heroes, By getting the people off the streets, and setting up a perimeter he probably directly saved the most lives. While (the other Avengers) defeating the army saved the world (indirectly saving a few billion lives).

    Despite what you say, he gave fast and effective orders to the team for containment "until we can close that portal." And wasn't about to send Widow on a fool's errand that she realistically wouldn't survive in order to attempt to close a portal that no one (not even her) was sure she could close.
     
    #36
  12. BullMcGiveny

    BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    That bit makes me laugh. Like Hulk needs to be told to smash, or is capable of anything but smashing.

    "And Hulk! Arrange and oversee CASEVAC."

    Well the thing is, and I'm kind of a sociopath for saying it, I don't have that much an attachment to the people of New York in this film. If Pepper was one of the people in the bank, it'd have worked better.

    So the end result that Steve rescues some people doesn't wow me because he doesn't do it in a wowing manner.

    We also don't see a corelation between Cap's orders and the situation getting better. We don't see what happens to the cops and if Cap's orders made anything bettern.

    Not to mention that ultimately, those people would've still been dead without the actions of Natasha and Tony.

    It's just not enough.
     
    #37
  13. Obi-Ron

    Obi-Ron Deal with it

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    Nothing. He's just a kid from Brooklyn :oldrazz:
     
    #38
  14. terry78

    terry78 I'm gonna need more rope

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    In the books, Civil War notwithstanding, everyone respects Cap, even Hulk. The fact that he's one of the less powerful Marvel heroes but command such awe is the thing. When he says shut up, you listen.
     
    #39
  15. BullMcGiveny

    BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    In the comics, he commands respect.

    In the movie, he does nothing to prove he should command respect. They all just fall in line.
     
    #40
  16. pr0xyt0xin

    pr0xyt0xin Shaper Savant

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    Maybe you had to be there.
     
    #41
  17. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    You also have to take into account that this film is also about the origins of the Avengers. Perhaps in the second film, Cap will be more to your likings.
     
    #42
  18. BullMcGiveny

    BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Well, that's the thing. In an Avengers origin movie, you really need to show why the leader of the Avengers is the leader of the Avengers. Where else are you going to do that?
     
    #43
  19. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    Maybe I need to watch the film again, but I didn't get the vibe that he wasn't playing his role as should be. It gets downplayed somehow because of the clashing personalities of the whole team. After all, only Nick Fury, and the S.H.I.E.L.D staff knows Steve better than anyone. Thorough the film, he is the one giving orders and making the tough decisions, he was fine in my book.
     
    #44
  20. BullMcGiveny

    BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    He tries to reel-in Stark a couple of times, when Thor first shows up, and then when he's trying to hack SHIELD. Stark rebuffs him both times.

    And fair enough, he should be met with resistance. He should then proceed to prove why he should be in charge.

    But no one aside from Stark seems to have any opinion one way or the other about the guy.

    And how does he end up being in charge? He just does. And everyone is okay with that.

    Stark goes from saying "Following orders isn't my style" and "everything special about you came out of a bottle" to "A living legend who kind of lives up to the legend" and is the one to ask him to call the battle.

    What brought that change of heart?

    Well, they fixed the Hellicarier together. During which Steve was doing as Tony said. And almost got killed after getting in a fight with three henchmen and needed Tony to save him.

    Nothing about that proves Steve lives up to any sort of legend. Certainly doesn't prove that Cap is a leader.
     
    #45
  21. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    First of all, he is Tony Stark. If there is one personality that was going to clash with Cap's was Tony's. And he tells Tony something that is true, that he's never done the sacrifice play, from which I agree. In previous films, Stark never had to prove himself in the way Captain America, or Thor, or even Hulk/Banner had done in their previous adventures. And in the end he does finally "the sacrifice play". I'll say Cap influenced this too.

    And yes, Steve realized that he doesn't know about machines and modern stuff, it was wise to follow Tony's orders. That's also the quality of a leader.
     
    #46
  22. BullMcGiveny

    BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    I'm not saying that Tony shouldn't clash with Steve, because he should. But no one else did, so the arc of Steve earning his leadership is limited to his interactions with Tony.

    Steve doesn't say that Tony has never performed the sacrifice play. He says that Tony isn't the type of person to sacrifice himself. That he doesn't have it in him.

    And the end of the movie proves that Cap was wrong. Tony is capable of self-sacrifice.

    Not really. A good leader listens to people who know more than they do, but not all people who listen to people who know more than they do are leaders.
     
    #47
  23. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    So, because the only one who opposed Captain America was Tony, and everyone followed suit, that doesn't make him a leader?


    And the end of the movie proves that Cap was wrong. Tony is capable of self-sacrifice.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, Tony is capable, but he haven't had a chance to prove himself. He would rather find a better solution "I think I'll just cut the wire." The battle of quips on the helicarrier must have stung Tony more than Steve. Steve has heard it before, it doesn't affect him. Tony haven't, and at the end he proves himself, which is great.

    Also there are many other moments. He stands up against Loki, he stops the fight between Iron Man and Thor, he gives instructions to the police in the final battle, and makes the tough call of closing the portal. Also he saves those people on the end too.

    You answered yourself that one.
     
    #48
  24. BullMcGiveny

    BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    It makes it a pretty poor character arc.

    He was wrong. He said Tony wasn't a hero, and he meant it in a disparaging way.

    And fails to back it up, getting so thoroughly beaten, and in the end needs Iron Man's help.

    Old German dude also stood up to Loki. As does Tony in the end.

    You highlighted the wrong portion.

    You can listen to other people without being a good leader.

    Not everyone who listens to other people is a leader.

    At the end of Iron Man 1, Pepper listens to what Tony has to say about the tech stuff. Does that mean Pepper should lead the Avengers?
     
    #49
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  25. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    The thing is, that wasn't his character arc main asset. The main point was lost into the cut scenes. The problem Captain America was facing in the film was that he was a "fish out of water", and all the emotional consequences he had to face. But I agree, that those scenes not being in the film, hurts Captain America character.

    Of course he was wrong! After all, he didn't really know Tony, the same way Tony didn't know Steve. He was also wrong about him. We must take Thor's line "You people are so petty and tiny" in the same way?. They were being influenced by Loki's scepter. However, Steve does make a point about Tony.

    That only elevates that old german dude, not undermines Captain America in any way.


    That doesn't exclude Captain America from being a leader is what I'm getting at.
     
    #50

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