The Dark Knight What the sides and filming point to as plot/JOKER

[Silver Souper]

After looking at our spy's photos and reports from chicago, we know that a school bus will crash through the gotham national bank. we also know goons in clown masks will raid the joint. as for ledger- darkest knight says he was in all black, without any makeup, white skin, green hair or lipstick.

miranda and I were chatting and I have this idea: when you compare this data to the first two pages of the sides (at http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11410652&postcount=571) you find that these guys are thinking about offing the J man to get a bigger cut of the money.

i think it's possible that joker will be a theatrical robber with a calling card/goons who gets dunked in acid by his goons AFTER this robbery, either because they want his money or he steals theirs. they would dunk him in acid INTENTIONALLY to make the vain robber look like a clown- only to their surprise he survives, adds lipstick to his white skin and green hair, embraces his horrifying look, and goes on a five way revenge-ish rampage to kill the men.

this also syncs with the sides about the bank manager calling joker a "freak." this scene could be a FOLLOWUP robbery by the now iconic joker- only he'd be in mask as his former henchman, and would REVEAL his true face to the shock of the manager.

what do you guys think? Cool idea? possible? inconsistant with the character? i think it works well and is possible. or ledger was just in rehearsal.

 

[regwec]

It's difficult to say much for sure, but the indication seem to be that The Joker's appearance is striking (hence the bank manager's reaction), that his smile is impressive (stunned policeman), that he "has a taste for theatrics" (Batman Begins, ram-raid with school bus, escape by zipline), that he has a sardonic wit (sides, as "prisoner"), that he works with others, though he is happy to murder them (sides).

All in all, it seems to indicate rather a classical approach, which pleases me.

 

[SilentType]

I think the non-made-up Ledger was for a rehearsal.

If not, the only alternative that would be satisfying to me would be a purposeful disfigurement by the mob.

 

[StorminNorman]

I hope we dont see a pre-Joker Joker

 

[Silver Souper]

I think the non-made-up Ledger was for a rehearsal.

If not, the only alternative that would be satisfying to me would be a purposeful disfigurement by the mob.

What about a purposeful disfigurement by his own goons? Elevates them above the typical bumbling dork that you typically see as henchmen.

It's difficult to say much for sure, but the indication seem to be that The Joker's appearance is striking (hence the bank manager's reaction), that his smile is impressive (stunned policeman), that he "has a taste for theatrics" (Batman Begins, ram-raid with school bus, escape by zipline), that he has a sardonic wit (sides, as "prisoner"), that he works with others, though he is happy to murder them (sides).

All in all, it seems to indicate rather a classical approach, which pleases me.

true, all points aim at classic joker. do you think the currently filming scene, if it is an origin piece (or flashback) works to build the joker's persona or hurt it? many people don't like the backstory for him period.

 

[regwec]

Hard to say. Chris often entirely scrambles the chronology of his films, to great effect. I would be disappointed to see a three-act narrative with a "Jack Napier" figure deformed, then rising to criminal heights, then being overthrown at the conclusion. But such a scene could exist anywhere, even as one of many possible "reconstructive" scenes of the past. It may even be the last scene of the film, after the (still anonymous) Joker has been presumed dead. I would actually really enjoy that.

 

[itsthebatman]

After looking at our spy's photos and reports from chicago, we know that a school bus will crash through the gotham national bank. we also know goons in clown masks will raid the joint. as for ledger- darkest knight says he was in all black, without any makeup, white skin, green hair or lipstick.

miranda and I were chatting and I have this idea: when you compare this data to the first two pages of the sides (at http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11410652&postcount=571) you find that these guys are thinking about offing the J man to get a bigger cut of the money.

i think it's possible that joker will be a theatrical robber with a calling card/goons who gets dunked in acid by his goons AFTER this robbery, either because they want his money or he steals theirs. they would dunk him in acid INTENTIONALLY to make the vain robber look like a clown- only to their surprise he survives, adds lipstick to his white skin and green hair, embraces his horrifying look, and goes on a five way revenge-ish rampage to kill the men.

this also syncs with the sides about the bank manager calling joker a "freak." this scene could be a FOLLOWUP robbery by the now iconic joker- only he'd be in mask as his former henchman, and would REVEAL his true face to the shock of the manager.

what do you guys think? Cool idea? possible? inconsistant with the character? i think it works well and is possible. or ledger was just in rehearsal.

I like the way you put this together, Souper. However, I think it's a bit contrived to have the pre-Joker Joker be a career criminal with a taste for thaetrics and clown imagery. I prefer the idea of a petty criminal who is truly transformed by his dunk in the vat of magic insane-o-acid. B89 and TAS have both taken the route of a mobster who is already a major criminal before becoming Mistah J - if we are to have backstory in TDK (which I'd rather not), I would prefer an exploration of the 'one bad day' theory from Killing Joke.
Still, having said that, if they go that road, it could work.

 

[Bond]

As much of a Joker fan that I am, I really don't want to see a backstory for him. I want this film to be about Batman. Not the Joker.

 

[Nepenthes]

It's just bad storytelling. It's convoluted and convenient at the same.

 

[DieSmiling]

I hope we dont see a pre-Joker Joker

Agreed. I don't really want any kind of Joker origin.

 

[Lucius Cipher]

Wow, I had never been able to find these so-called "sides" that everyone was talkin' about until now (thanks, btw). After reading that, I think I'm even more excited than I ever was before, which I pretty much deemed impossible...

This part gave me the chills....so well written:

INT. BANK - DAY

The MASK-WEARING THUG stuffs cash into his bag as the wounded BANK MANAGER watches him.

BANK MANAGER
You have any idea who you're stealing from? You and your friends are dead.

The thug isn't bothered

BANK MANAGER (CONT'D)
You idiot. What makes you think the guy who hired you isn't going to kill you, too?

The Thug STOPS. Crouches over him. In the distance: SIRENS.

GENTLE VOICE
Call it a hunch.

The man PULLS off his MASK. The Bank Manager GASPS, horrified at the face staring back at him.

GENTLE VOICE (CONT'D)
It's rude to stare.

The bank manager summons his nerve, gritting his teeth.

BANK MANAGER
What are you? You freak. Criminals in this town used to believe in things. Honor. Respect. What do you believe in, huh? What do you bel-

BANG...the THUG puts a bullet into the MANAGER's head.


Anyways, this part is great too if you understand/speculate a bit:

PROSECUTOR
I've got a sworn statement from you that this man, Salvatore Maroni, is the new head of the Falcone crime family.

ROSSI
Maroni? He's a fall guy. I'm the brains of the organization.

LAUGHS from the gallery. The PROSECUTOR turns to the JUDGE.

PROSECUTOR
Permission to treat the witness as hostile?

ROSSI
Hostile? I'll show you hostile...

Being that the "PROSECUTOR," is definitely Dent, I think we all know what probably follows that line, which would mean, presumably, that The Joker isn't the one who does the deed as previously reported....

 

[Nepenthes]

^ there's alot of little clues in the sides. look for a thread called 'Stuff that's been confirmed by the sides' or something like that.

 

[Silver Souper]

I like the way you put this together, Souper. However, I think it's a bit contrived to have the pre-Joker Joker be a career criminal with a taste for thaetrics and clown imagery. I prefer the idea of a petty criminal who is truly transformed by his dunk in the vat of magic insane-o-acid. B89 and TAS have both taken the route of a mobster who is already a major criminal before becoming Mistah J - if we are to have backstory in TDK (which I'd rather not), I would prefer an exploration of the 'one bad day' theory from Killing Joke.
Still, having said that, if they go that road, it could work.

thanks- and i actually agree with you guys- no joker origin is better for the character, or just brief hints at one. that's more mysterious. and funny you should mention B89 because i was reminded of it while writing my explanation.

what i was trying to do is make sense of a joker-less ledger in the scene being filmed in chicago, as i'm a little nervous that he is clearly not the joker we know based on the set report. so i was trying to make sense of the scene IF in a few days of filming he still does not look like joker.

katsuro also had a great idea that the joker is masked too and that when (as in the side) he reveals his face to the manager- only the manager sees his face.

i like the killing joke motivation the best, too. i don't want the joker to be too sympathetic and an origin gives him some leverage that way. if they decide to go with an origin- i do like what I've come up with for that.

 

[wikum]

I hope we dont see a pre-Joker Joker

i couldn't agree more my friend.

 

[The Batman UK]

if he's supposed to be pitting gangs against each other? is he? i think i heard that, then could this be a flashback or as previously mentioned pre-joker, n who ever he's workin for double crosses him, falcone? maroni? calls cops, batman turns up, im not sure what would happen here as im in two minds as to whether i want a joker origin or not, but this could set up the jokers revenge against both batman and crime boss? bosses? which ever one double crosses him?

 

[Nepenthes]

I have an idea that's very Nolan-esque. During the course of TDK Batman pieces together an origin and we see flashbacks to pre-Joker days and the acid bath. Then in a suprise twist the origin we had come to believe is proved questionable. Just like in the Killing Joke. Pleases everybody.


For example, we witness that the Joker has a vendetta against the mob. Then we learn that the mob has been stashing bodies in a chemical plant. We also learn that a once-notorious mobster has recently 'gone missing'. Then, we actually see one of the Jokers mob victims RECOGNISE him as the person they once knew.....thus confirming the theory Batman has put together. Case solved.

But then in the end of the movie, police find the body of the missing mobster hidden in the chemical dump. He wasn't the Joker after all. Of course the body may be a clever ruse planted there by the Joker, but we don't know.

???

 

[Lucius Cipher]

I seriously doubt that there will be an origin story. More than likely, the reason why Ledger didn't have any makeup is because we don't see the Joker's face in this scene. He's wearing that mask, and when he takes it off and turns to the Bank Manager, its presumed that his back is to the audience. This would make sense being that it doesn't look like the crew have finalized what Mr. J will actually look like....

 

[itsthebatman]

I've heard that scenario put forward before in. Is that your idea from a while back, Nepenthes?

 

[Anjow1060]

I've decided from the newest news on SHH main page = this is not part of the movie. I'm betting this is a trailer/teaser. a "Pre-shoot"? The only reason something of the sorts would take pace is for CGI. And we know that Nolan hates it. I also don't think we're gonna get a flashback explaining the Joker. Remembered he was going to be "dark, mysterious, and in the shadows"?

 

[itsthebatman]

I seriously doubt that there will be an origin story. More than likely, the reason why Ledger didn't have any makeup is because we don't see the Joker's face in this scene. He's wearing that mask, and when he takes it off and turns to the Bank Manager, its presumed that his back is to the audience. This would make sense being that it doesn't look like the crew have finalized what Mr. J will actually look like....[/quote]
Oh, I'd say they have it finalised at this stage, they just haven't revealed it and want to keep it under wraps as much as possible.

 

[The Batman UK]

i agree with cipher, if he's wearin a mask no need to waste makeup, specially if there is no certain look yet, maybe they will shoot the scene with the joker in the coming days, if so, would the do any official photography to release a promo pic of the joker? would be an ideal time i think, especially if they dont wana chance a pic leaked on the net

 

[Rynan]

The only reason something of the sorts would take pace is for CGI. And we know that Nolan hates it.

Lies. Nolan just doesn't want to rely too heavily on CGI, preferring use real effects when possible. Like with the train crash stunt in BB. That used both CGI AND Model effects to create an amazing scene. I don't see why the same can't be used here.

 

[Nepenthes]

I've heard that scenario put forward before in. Is that your idea from a while back, Nepenthes?

Yep when then sides first appeared. I think a (hypothetical) origin is needed for the story AND the audience, and it fits the Joker perfectly because it's still mysterious. Batman would naturally want to know who this guy is, and so do we. Uncovering clues drives the story quite well as Batman moves through Gotham and the underworld and the reasons for Jokers vendetta is made clear. Otherwise the narrative is just him reacting to crimes.

Most importantly, the audience needs *something*. You don't just present a guy like the Joker with no explanation for his actions. It won't look mysterious, just very very cheap. But if you put a huge question mark at the end in typical Nolan style, it would keep us guessing, and set-up well for movie three.

 

[itsthebatman]

It would have to be done well. There has been no definitive Joker origin (excluding the forthcoming Confidential storyline) so far in the comics, and I do like the idea of no backstory. While not suggesting I want the Joker to be like either of the, Hannibal Lecter (Silence of the Lambs era) and John Doe are two of the best screen villains of recent times, and neither had an extensive backstory, indeed Doe had none at all, while giving Hannibal one inf the following movies cheapened the character, IMO.

 

[Stringer]

I hope we dont see a pre-Joker Joker

Me neither