BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 1

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]511451[/split]

 

[Jordanstine]

SPOILERS abound so beware!

***************************************

Any suggestions and what improvements could've been made for those who've seen the movie?

Please take this thread as "constructive criticism" and not as another thread to bash the movie (coz we all know the sensitivity level here can get out of hand, literally). Some thoughts:

1) Death of Superman

Probably the biggest issue I had was when they shoehorned the Death of Superman in the last 10 mins of the film. The execution was poorly done. They tried the Lois/Clark love angle but there was just not a strong enough emotional attachment to it at least for me and my friends. Felt like I nor any of my friends believed Superman was going to die, I mean this was only Cavill's 2nd movie, and of course they did a fake out in the end with his casket moving. I felt they really ruined a perfectly good storyline that could've been it's own standalone Man of Steel 2 or 3 movie.


2) Finch and Wallace

Another storyline cut too short was the Senator Finch and Wallace Keefe story. They build up the first hour to be about people's fear of Superman, giving Finch and Keefe a lot of screen time to build up to the Superman hearing. Then when the court room explosion happened, except for a brief Nancy Grace cameo, it was like the movie had almost forgotten about it. That scene was the scene that gave me goose bumps but felt wasted with the aftermath. It just seemed like it was forgotten. People's fear against Superman was no longer being talked about because he now had to fight Batman and Doomsday. This story also could've been made into another standalone movie and executed much better.


3) Dawn of Justice

This movie felt more like "Dawn of Justice" than it did "Batman V Superman". Their fight was shorter than I had thought. It felt more just like a setup to Justice League with all the dream sequences, the cameos of the 3 heroes, all of which weirdly placed in the movie and broke up some of the flow. Cyborg's cameo was too long and basically showed his whole origin story. Would've been perfect if they had used this as an after credits scene instead.


4) Man of Steel

One of the silliest moments in the film was when the kept reminding us, the audience, at least twice that innocents were being killed whenever a big action sequence took place. There was a line in the movie about people not being inside those blown up office buildings because "they had gone home for the day". And then another line when Doomsday crashed and exploded, that where he landed was "uninhabited" so all those buildings being destroyed were empty. It just made the movie a little silly. I was half joking that the actors who said those lines was just gong to look into the camera and give us a wink or something. The director or story writer had so much fear about the critics of Man of Steel that they had to do this.

Others?

 

[batmop]

Need to watch it a few more times, but my only real gripe was that the movie was too short.

Maybe if I want to be picky, I can also point out inconsistent CGI/visual effects.

 

[jokesonm3]

Q: What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

A:

That is all.

 

[matt47]

SPOILERS abound so beware!

***************************************

Any suggestions and what improvements could've been made for those who've seen the movie?

Please take this thread as "constructive criticism" and not as another thread to bash the movie (coz we all know the sensitivity level here can get out of hand, literally). Some thoughts:

1) Death of Superman

Probably the biggest issue I had was when they shoehorned the Death of Superman in the last 10 mins of the film. The execution was poorly done. They tried the Lois/Clark love angle but there was just not a strong enough emotional attachment to it at least for me and my friends. Felt like I nor any of my friends believed Superman was going to die, I mean this was only Cavill's 2nd movie, and of course they did a fake out in the end with his casket moving. I felt they really ruined a perfectly good storyline that could've been it's own standalone Man of Steel 2 or 3 movie.


2) Finch and Wallace

Another storyline cut too short was the Senator Finch and Wallace Keefe story. They build up the first hour to be about people's fear of Superman, giving Finch and Keefe a lot of screen time to build up to the Superman hearing. Then when the court room explosion happened, except for a brief Nancy Grace cameo, it was like the movie had almost forgotten about it. That scene was the scene that gave me goose bumps but felt wasted with the aftermath. It just seemed like it was forgotten. People's fear against Superman was no longer being talked about because he now had to fight Batman and Doomsday. This story also could've been made into another standalone movie and executed much better.


3) Dawn of Justice

This movie felt more like "Dawn of Justice" than it did "Batman V Superman". Their fight was shorter than I had thought. It felt more just like a setup to Justice League with all the dream sequences, the cameos of the 3 heroes, all of which weirdly placed in the movie and broke up some of the flow. Cyborg's cameo was too long and basically showed his whole origin story. Would've been perfect if they had used this as an after credits scene instead.


4) Man of Steel

One of the silliest moments in the film was when the kept reminding us, the audience, at least twice that innocents were being killed whenever a big action sequence took place. There was a line in the movie about people not being inside those blown up office buildings because "they had gone home for the day". And then another line when Doomsday crashed and exploded, that where he landed was "uninhabited" so all those buildings being destroyed were empty. It just made the movie a little silly. I was half joking that the actors who said those lines was just gong to look into the camera and give us a wink or something. The director or story writer had so much fear about the critics of Man of Steel that they had to do this.

Others?

Dear Zod yes.

 

[gdw]

The push for a 2.5 hr cut.

 

[DA_Champion]

A really dumb scene is when Superman destroys the Batmobile.

- Superman lets a bunch of criminals get away;
- "The bat is dead. Consider this mercy" is a truly-dim line of dialogue that misses the point of the character.

 

[Logan0327]

A really dumb scene is when Superman destroys the Batmobile.

- Superman lets a bunch of criminals get away;
- "The bat is dead. Consider this mercy" is a truly-dim line of dialogue that misses the point of the character.

all that scene did was make superman look like a jerk

 

[DA_Champion]

all that scene did was make superman look like a jerk

A hypocritical jerk.

Superman's stated reason for hating Batman is that Batman is a vigilante.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

It's gonna be unpopular, but I think Wonder Woman was what went wrong.

Don't get me wrong, Wonder Woman was probably the best part of the film, but without her, we wouldn't have needed something for the three of them to team up against. Without Wonder Woman we can lop out Doomsday and the other metahuman subplot entirely. We can go from "BvS: DoJ" to just BvS. With the extra half hour we saved we can further develop Bruce/Alfred, Lois/Clark, Lex/Supes, The Daily Planet, etc.

If they still insisted upon killing off Supes, Batman could've done it. He almost did anyway. The "Save Martha" couldve come after the killing blow had been struck. And then once Batman goes to save her, he has a conversation with her, where she explains how good her son really was. Upon watching a video replay of the battle, he sees Superman showing restraint and trying to talk Batman down. Batman sees how his rage took over. Killing Superman mirrors Zod's death from Man of Steel. Fans are obviously unhappy about this, but at least its a thematic parallel. And it would've been a surprise. Pretty risky move.

Then he goes after Lex, who he realizes was the catalyst for the entire battle. He stops him before he completes Doomsday. Sends him to prison. He then reviews the metahuman data recovered from Lex's archives (during the end credits) and decides to unite the JL. He also sees the Zod resurrection project (a nod to superman's revival).

Maybe, idk. I'm high.

 

[Predator jp]

pretty much this.

 

[matt47]

It's gonna be unpopular, but I think Wonder Woman was what went wrong.

Don't get me wrong, Wonder Woman was probably the best part of the film, but without her, we wouldn't have needed something for the three of them to team up against. Without Wonder Woman we can lop out Doomsday and the other metahuman subplot entirely. We can go from "BvS: DoJ" to just BvS. With the extra half hour we saved we can further develop Bruce/Alfred, Lois/Clark, Lex/Supes, The Daily Planet, etc.

If they still insisted upon killing off Supes, Batman could've done it. He almost did anyway. The "Save Martha" couldve come after the killing blow had been struck. And then once Batman goes to save her, he has a conversation with her, where she explains how good her son really was. Upon watching a video replay of the battle, he sees Superman showing restraint and trying to talk Batman down. Batman sees how his rage took over. Killing Superman mirrors Zod's death from Man of Steel. Fans are obviously unhappy about this, but at least its a thematic parallel. And it would've been a surprise. Pretty risky move.

Then he goes after Lex, who he realizes was the catalyst for the entire battle. He stops him before he completes Doomsday. Sends him to prison. He then reviews the metahuman data recovered from Lex's archives (during the end credits) and decides to unite the JL. He also sees the Zod resurrection project (a nod to superman's revival).

Maybe, idk. I'm high.

That's...that's pretty ****in good.

 

[matt47]

Q: What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice

A:

That is all.

lol while he isn't the only one responsible, he was the catalyst for many of by bugaboos with the film.
Jesse cast as Lex, Batman killing, Superman dying, Knightmare scene(s), unnecessary cgi etc.

 

[jokesonm3]

lol while he isn't the only one responsible, he was the catalyst for many of by bugaboos with the film.
Jesse cast as Lex, Batman killing, Superman dying, Knightmare scene(s), unnecessary cgi etc.

Dude i gave him a free pass for Man of Steel and blamed all the problems it had on Goyer, and with an Oscar Winners script that was highly praised by the cast i expected Snyder to deliver his best work yet.

Then this happens... a more hated film the Man of Steel.

This time he's the one who brought the war. to. us.

And we have to stop him.

 

[Batsfan1]

Open the movie with the end of MOS, show Bruce arriving, running into the rubbel, basically the same thing.

OPENING TITLE.

Batman is a reckless, vicious vigilante. He pummels criminals like rapists and murderers into near comas. Alfred is deeply concerned about Bruce's growing viciousness, fearful that he'll cross the line. Have the scene where Alfred says that everything's changed also have him glance at Jason's costume just as he says it. Jason's death caused him to shut down as a superhero, but after the events of MOS, he's retaken his mission harder than ever. He has nightmares about his parents deaths and Jason's death intermingling into the same event.

Superman is very much playing with kid gloves. After the events of MOS, he's afraid of his powers, the destructive force he has. He doesn't break bones, he tries to avoid destroying property. He doesn't want anyone else to get hurt. He has ptsd-esque flashbacks about the events of MOS. He still works, he's begun a relationship with Lois, which is struggling because of his disconnected attitude. Clark is obsessed with keeping himself from being something that frightens people, so much so that he's formed a partnership with Metropolis' hometown billionaire to help the city...

Lex is paranoid, rich, ruthless and fearful. As a former abused child, he's grown and constructed his entire life around being powerful, great and untouchable. And then comes Superman, a powerful creature that is better than him, more special than and more powerful than him, something that he can't control, that he can't protect himself from and he can't stand it. He's basically Batman on steroids. The Bruce Wayne worst case scenario. Only in a more self-involved way. He views Superman as a threat in waiting to him personally, not just really the world. Keep Jesse Eisenberg if you must. But make him more physically fit, not overly muscular though. Maybe he trains in some form or multiple forms of karate. He finds any form of inability as inherent weakness.

Side threats Metallo and Bizarro. When Lex will reveal this to Superman he will say, "Aliens, metahumans, magic, it's truly bizarre times we live in. Only fair that we make something just as bizarre to combat it."

Lex uses the kryptonian ship and a sample of Superman's DNA to create a clone, a mentally deficient clone, even a decaying one, something that he can control. He uses it to frame Superman for attacks. This shakes Superman. He sees the public and understands that no matter what he does, he won't be trust by them. He nearly quits because of this. It's really all about Superman's sense of inferiority. He's afraid that he can't help people now that they know he's out there. He's afraid that even though he knows the attacks happening aren't his fault he still fears that it's something he could be capable of. He doesn't see himself as helpful to the world, but as a negative force in it.

There's a running theme of a feeling of inferiority in this story. Lex feels inferior, because Superman's existence makes him feel powerless and inadequate. Batman feels helpless as ever to do good, to help people, because of such a destructive creature like Superman being around. This feeds into his already intense powerlessness at the loss of Jason Todd at the hands of the Joker due to his, as far as Batman's concerned, inaction.

Batman and Superman cross paths twice before the fight. Once during a bank robbery and another during an altercation where Superman does x-ray through Batman's cowl and tells him to stop his vigilantism. Batman rejects this and begins building his suit to combat Superman after he sees the stories about Superman's attacks that are really Bizarro. Superman does some digging on Bruce Wayne, finding out about his parents deaths and the death of his ward, Jason Todd.

Meanwhile Lex has been keeping tabs on Superman and kidnaps Lois Lane or his mom, framing Batman for it, placing a batarang at the scene.

Superman is basically winning the fight, until he stops himself and begins to realize that he and Batman have been manipulated by Lex. Batman capitalizes on Superman's stopping and uses his kryptonite weapons. And Batman begins beating Superman brutally, mercilessly, and we see flashes before Batman's eyes of Jason Todd being beaten half to death by the Joker with the crowbar. He would tell Superman that he's let too much death happen because he wouldn't do what was necessary and that he won't let that happen again. But Superman would convince Batman that he doesn't have to do this, to cross this line, that he understands how he feels.

They would defeat Bizarro and Metallo together. Maybe Wonder Woman could be involved, but she's not really a real problem in the movie, so i didn't think about her character.

Lex would lose his hair when Bizarro unleashes a hit of fire breath onto him after he's been defeated by Superman, burning his head.

Have a very great day everyone!

God bless everyone!

 

[craigdbfan]

It's gonna be unpopular, but I think Wonder Woman was what went wrong.

Don't get me wrong, Wonder Woman was probably the best part of the film, but without her, we wouldn't have needed something for the three of them to team up against. Without Wonder Woman we can lop out Doomsday and the other metahuman subplot entirely. We can go from "BvS: DoJ" to just BvS. With the extra half hour we saved we can further develop Bruce/Alfred, Lois/Clark, Lex/Supes, The Daily Planet, etc.

If they still insisted upon killing off Supes, Batman could've done it. He almost did anyway. The "Save Martha" couldve come after the killing blow had been struck. And then once Batman goes to save her, he has a conversation with her, where she explains how good her son really was. Upon watching a video replay of the battle, he sees Superman showing restraint and trying to talk Batman down. Batman sees how his rage took over. Killing Superman mirrors Zod's death from Man of Steel. Fans are obviously unhappy about this, but at least its a thematic parallel. And it would've been a surprise. Pretty risky move.

Then he goes after Lex, who he realizes was the catalyst for the entire battle. He stops him before he completes Doomsday. Sends him to prison. He then reviews the metahuman data recovered from Lex's archives (during the end credits) and decides to unite the JL. He also sees the Zod resurrection project (a nod to superman's revival).

Maybe, idk. I'm high.

Damn that's some ****ing good editing there. That probably would have structurally made the movie leagues better.

I still love this weirdo movie but that structure you proposed is way more sound.

 

[Lily Adler]

Stoners are good for something after all.

 

[craigdbfan]

It takes a true stoner to navigate BvS and make sense of all it Au potato gratin layers.

I don't just mean smoking/vaping/dabbing it. I mean eating half of a 10 dose medical grade fudge.

Only then will one unlock the hidden treasures of BvS.

 

[jokesonm3]

Wonder if studio interference forced the Wonder Woman and Doomsday plot, in order to expand the DCEU.

 

[spider-neil]

Damn that's some ****ing good editing there. That probably would have structurally made the movie leagues better.

I still love this weirdo movie but that structure you proposed is way more sound.

Everything that happens after the warehouse fight could have cut and either you release the movie a half hour shorter or you devote the half hour to Superman/Clark because when it comes to character development I think he got lost in the shuffle. I loved WW but I would have preferred a tighter movie then a glorified cameo.

 

[jokesonm3]

This is why i'm worried about the Justice League film.

Instead of Snyder telling a great story, how many sub plots is he going to stuff into the Justice League film like BvS in order to further expand the DCEU?

 

[InspecktahDeck]

People would go even more bat**** if they made a movie with Batman outrightkilling Superman. No offense, but that's an awful idea and would have been a terrible movie.

 

[Micromind]

pretty much this.

Well, Superman has a strict code then even Captain America.

Cap America can get away by killing someone in the fight, as he is a trained Solider, but if Superman does that he will be criticized.


If Captain America fails to save someone, it would be justified as he has "human" limitations, not so with Supes, people will hold him responsible.

Do fans really take all this into consideration, while making convenient comparisons between the two ? I'm tired of people comparing the two.

 

[Logan0327]

Dude i gave him a free pass for Man of Steel and blamed all the problems it had on Goyer, and with an Oscar Winners script that was highly praised by the cast i expected Snyder to deliver his best work yet.

Then this happens... a more hated film the Man of Steel.

This time he's the one who brought the war. to. us.

And we have to stop him.

well blame terrio too the script was awful and snyder didn't write it

the reason we have no development,motivation,etc is because of terrio

 

[InspecktahDeck]

pretty much this.

Unfortunately plenty of people criticize Cap for being too idealistic, even Captain America fans. I constantly see people say Cap should kill more often and carry a gun because he's a soldier (not sure how many comics they've read, they get mad that for decades Cap never used a gun in the war or that the Hulk never killed anyone in a rampage.) Tons of people who saw Winter Soldier said the Bucky thing was too corny that he tried to save him.

Some people are just idiotic and don't get superheroes.