BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 1

[Visualiza]

I have to admit that I'm not seeing the allegedly huge problem of people defending this thing. The vibe of this board seems predominantly negative. Most of the folks who liked it have left. Sure, there's a few outliers here and there, but for the most part, this place seems to be the site of a very prolonged autopsy.

There's also some people who make reasonable defenses because they genuinely liked the film and think it's been dealt a raw deal, not because of some slavish commitment.

The problem isn't the defense of the movie per se, it's how it's been defended in some cases.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

They would have been better served to make a World's Finest film in which Batman and Superman have some conflicts before forming a complex friendship. There likely would have been far less bending, if any, of the characters to achieve that.

The Odd Couple of superhero films?

 

[Deserana]

The problem isn't the defense of the movie per se, it's how it's been defended in some cases.

Some of the defences have been bad.

Some of the holes people are actively trying to poke into the film are also just as bad. In fact there was actual proof a week or two ago on this board of clear bandwagoning.

Each side needs to stop acting like the other is being unfair and both need to realise there just simply is people who do and don't like it.

 

[MrsKent26]

The problem isn't the defense of the movie per se, it's how it's been defended in some cases.

I agree that there's been some shoddy defenses, but I don't find it that prolific. Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention to the guilty parties.

The Odd Couple of superhero films?

Yeah. The batman and superman friendship is complex and entertaining enough to not only warrant a film of its own, but I think it'd be a real crowd pleaser.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Yeah. The batman and superman friendship is complex and entertaining enough to not only warrant a film of its own, but I think it'd be a real crowd pleaser.

It's been awhile since I saw it but I remember the animated Batman- Superman hour meeting being really good. They keep antagonizing each other.

 

[Visualiza]

I'm actually starting to think that maybe there really isn't anyway you could have done this concept at this stage. Without any history between Batman and Superman the concept has no meaning to it. This story about someone hating on Superman for what happened in MoS really is a Lex Luthor story, not a Batman one. It was never going to work with Batman for the simple reason that had the two of them actually talked Batman would have seen who Superman really was. If you replace Batman with Lex it's different because Batman isn't going to hate Superman once he knows who he is, but Lex is going to continue hating him no matter what. That's the fundamental flaw of this concept happening now. Had the two of them just talked this situation would never have happened.

Very good points all around.

Some of the defences have been bad.

Some of the holes people are actively trying to poke into the film are also just as bad. In fact there was actual proof a week or two ago on this board of clear bandwagoning.

Each side needs to stop acting like the other is being unfair and both need to realise there just simply is people who do and don't like it.

Ditto for this as well, although I am curious to see the evidence of bandwagoning. Wasn't aware of anything like that going on.

In any case, I agree; both sides could do with a lot more civility in general.

 

[Deserana]

Very good points all around.



Ditto for this as well, although I am curious to see the evidence of bandwagoning. Wasn't aware of anything like that going on.

In any case, I agree; both sides could do with a lot more civility in general.

It'll be difficult for me to look up as it was in the last 10 threads or so I guess but it was just a poster saying about "wait if Diana had the drive already why did she not see the files and give it back to Bruce after stealing it from him? This film gets worse everytime!" Pretty much exactly like that. Then for the next three or four pages posters, both new and old, were commenting saying things like "oh my god that's right! WTF!?" or "OMG Snyder u *******!", this was even though a poster had come in and proved that it was clearly explained in the movie what happened.

This movie has affected the boards post-release far worse than both TDKR and MoS. After TDKR it was more just dying and whoever was left was depressed that the movie didn't live up to the hype. MoS was mixed but way more positive than this. Here everyone who seemed to have liked it seems to have got so annoyed with the bashing that they left!

 

[MrsKent26]

It'll be difficult for me to look up as it was in the last 10 threads or so I guess but it was just a poster saying about "wait if Diana had the drive already why did she not see the files and give it back to Bruce after stealing it from him? This film gets worse everytime!" Pretty much exactly like that. Then for the next three or four pages posters, both new and old, were commenting saying things like "oh my god that's right! WTF!?" or "OMG Snyder u *******!", this was even though a poster had come in and proved that it was clearly explained in the movie what happened.

This movie has affected the boards post-release far worse than both TDKR and MoS.

Interesting. Some odd behavior on both sides.

I think the (largely justified) expectations for this movie and its audacity to be mediocre are the cause of the increased looniness. This was the first DC team-up starring arguably the world's foremost superman heroes, it had a huge budget, a new writer, it was coming out in the same general time frame as another huge film from the competition, and it had much to prove. It was a situation in which success was almost mandatory and yet...that didn't happen. It wasn't a total failure, but it was not the juggernaut it needed to be given the stakes. The fact that it wasn't a total failure just breeds more discontent because it allows a contingent of defenders to contrast with the deeply disappointed detractors. Truly a recipe for a bubbling cauldron of fan-rage

 

[Deserana]

Interesting. Some odd behavior on both sides.

I think the (largely justified) expectations for this movie and its audacity to be mediocre are the cause of the increased looniness. This was the first DC team-up starring arguably the world's foremost superman heroes, it had a huge budget, a new writer, it was coming out in the same general time frame as another huge film from the competition, and it had much to prove. It was a situation in which success was almost mandatory and yet...that didn't happen. It wasn't a total failure, but it was not the juggernaut it needed to be given the stakes. The fact that it wasn't a total failure just breeds more discontent because it allows a contingent of defenders to contrast with the deeply disappointed detractors. Truly a recipe for a bubbling cauldron of fan-rage

Yeah that I all completely agree with. Even us defenders of the film can't admit that the movie is launchpad WB wanted. No matter what happens with Suicide Squad there will be a huge looming doubt on Justice League.

I guess the Martha scene really is the focal point for how I see haters and lovers on this film. Some use it and actually explain why it hit them emotionally or how it left them cold, they use actual arguments and articulate it well. Then you have the people who try and defend it with some over artsy BS that Snyder clearly wasn't going for.

But then you also have, and this is by far the most annoying and peculiar group, the people who are just seemingly intentionally pretending to not understand the movie. What I mean by that is, look at the Martha scene, there's memes galore about how stupid it is that you just have to say Martha to make Batman nutty. Even though it's clear as day that is symbolising Bruce seeing Clark as human. Whether you like how they done it is an entirely different argument. I personally don't like how they did it but I'm not gonna be a ******** about it and pretend that it was a dumb scene that made no sense when it makes absolute sense but just didn't sit right.

It's like when a rumour went round about you at school that was completely false. People just ignore the fact it's not true and laugh at you anyway.

 

[shauner111]

I'm actually starting to think that maybe there really isn't anyway you could have done this concept at this stage. Without any history between Batman and Superman the concept has no meaning to it. This story about someone hating on Superman for what happened in MoS really is a Lex Luthor story, not a Batman one. It was never going to work with Batman for the simple reason that had the two of them actually talked Batman would have seen who Superman really was. If you replace Batman with Lex it's different because Batman isn't going to hate Superman once he knows who he is, but Lex is going to continue hating him no matter what. That's the fundamental flaw of this concept happening now. Had the two of them just talked this situation would never have happened.

You're so right about that. It's a dumb concept as a second movie in a franchise, first meeting between the characters.

 

[MrsKent26]

Yeah that I all completely agree with. Even us defenders of the film can't admit that the movie is launchpad WB wanted. No matter what happens with Suicide Squad there will be a huge looming doubt on Justice League.

I guess the Martha scene really is the focal point for how I see haters and lovers on this film. Some use it and actually explain why it hit them emotionally or how it left them cold, they use actual arguments and articulate it well. Then you have the people who try and defend it with some over artsy BS that Snyder clearly wasn't going for.

But then you also have, and this is by far the most annoying and peculiar group, the people who are just seemingly intentionally pretending to not understand the movie. What I mean by that is, look at the Martha scene, there's memes galore about how stupid it is that you just have to say Martha to make Batman nutty. Even though it's clear as day that is symbolising Bruce seeing Clark as human. Whether you like how they done it is an entirely different argument. I personally don't like how they did it but I'm not gonna be a ******** about it and pretend that it was a dumb scene that made no sense when it makes absolute sense but just didn't sit right.

It's like when a rumour went round about you at school that was completely false. People just ignore the fact it's not true and laugh at you anyway.

Interesting observations. I've seen some of this myself.

My understanding of the Martha scene was the same; it made Bruce see him on an equal plane, as a human. I liked the scene itself, but found batman's turnabout to being on team Clark too sudden (but feeling "crammed in" was a problem for this film in general).

Sometimes it seems like some people (in general, not calling out anyone in specific) take the mentality that if they don't like a film (especially if others around them don't like it as well), that must mean everything about it is pure crap or doesn't make sense.

 

[RLAAMJR.]

I didn't enjoy the movie. When I heard the negative reviews and financial constraint, I was having second thoughts ad was thinking of not watching it. But I enjoyed MoS. I only smiled a few times in this movie. Usually when Superman shows up. Love his costume.

1. How can bats carry young Bruce? Not even 20 of them grabbed his clothes so the bats could carry him up. Make it at least believable. They could have shown more bats grabbing him.

2. It goes to different scenes/locations. It kinda annoyed me.

3. They could have kept Doomsday a threat without any lots of energies going in and out f his body. Make it simple because it looked messy.

4. They make Superman being hit while WW usually blocks Dommsdays attacks. Also WW always uses her sword. We don't really get to see her fly. Superman and Wonder Woman can definitely keep Doomsday busy.

5. Snyder wants to put a lot of things in the movie, showing different locations, persons having connections to Superman, politics, and even made Superman defeated and killed thinking it will make the movie great. Unfortunately, it wasn't.

6. The Batman vs Superman fight should have ended with Lois Lane stopping them in the middle of their fight, and that we can't say whether Batman won nor Superman won, to be fair to the fans. instead of seeing Superman beaten.

7. it was dark. It shouldn't be because it's not a Batman movie.

 

[shauner111]

I didn't enjoy the movie. When I heard the negative reviews and financial constraint, I was having second thoughts ad was thinking of not watching it. But I enjoyed MoS. I only smiled a few times in this movie. Usually when Superman shows up. Love his costume.

1. How can bats carry young Bruce? Not even 20 of them grabbed his clothes so the bats could carry him up. Make it at least believable. They could have shown more bats grabbing him.

2. It goes to different scenes/locations. It kinda annoyed me.

3. They could have kept Doomsday a threat without any lots of energies going in and out f his body. Make it simple because it looked messy.

4. They make Superman being hit while WW usually blocks Dommsdays attacks. Also WW always uses her sword. We don't really get to see her fly. Superman and Wonder Woman can definitely keep Doomsday busy.

5. Snyder wants to put a lot of things in the movie, showing different locations, persons having connections to Superman, politics, and even made Superman defeated and killed thinking it will make the movie great. Unfortunately, it wasn't.

6. The Batman vs Superman fight should have ended with Lois Lane stopping them in the middle of their fight, and that we can't say whether Batman won nor Superman won, to be fair to the fans. instead of seeing Superman beaten.

7. it was dark. It shouldn't be because it's not a Batman movie.

1- It's a dream. There are no rules in dreams.

2- Piss poor editing.

3- I agree. Even though i wouldn't have used Doomsday at all.

4- She does fly at one point. She does these flying leaps. Wonder Woman should have taken the spear and tossed it into Doomsday since she's an amazon for crying out loud. Instead of Superman holding a kryptonite spear, sacrificing his life for nothing. Bad writing. They were looking too hard for an excuse to do the Death of Superman, all because Snyder was obsessed with the idea that Bruce had to be the one to gather the Justice League. And he needed Supes gone to do that. His words, not mine.

5 - Got that right!

6- That does sound better. Even though the fight shouldn't have happened in the first place. But hey, the concept is to sell a Batman vs Superman fight night, so let's do what we can to make that happen!

7- It should be balanced between dark and light/fun since Superman is also involved.

Interesting observations. I've seen some of this myself.

My understanding of the Martha scene was the same; it made Bruce see him on an equal plane, as a human. I liked the scene itself, but found batman's turnabout to being on team Clark too sudden (but feeling "crammed in" was a problem for this film in general).

But he already assumed that Superman had parents who taught him positive life lessons, like any good human parent would. He assumed this while he dragged his body on the floor, just 30 seconds or so before trying to plunge a death spear into his face.

 

[MrsKent26]

But he already assumed that Superman had parents who taught him positive life lessons, like any good human parent would. He assumed this while he dragged his body on the floor, just 30 seconds or so before trying to plunge a death spear into his face.

I gave my answer for this in the review thread.

 

[Maximum_Maximus]

I knew this film was going to be bad when we got that clip from Snyder:

"next time they shine your light in the sky, don't go to it. The bat is dead. Bury it."
Add in an obnoxious score and a corny tracking shot on Batman's face, followed by:
"Do you bleed? You will."

And you have a terrible scene in a terrible film.

Who knew that scene can be so cringeworthy? I was rolling my eyes at the awful lines and terrible delivery by both actors. I guess the fault lies with the screenwriters, but a bad scene nevertheless.

 

[DarkVictory]

I'm actually starting to think that maybe there really isn't anyway you could have done this concept at this stage. Without any history between Batman and Superman the concept has no meaning to it. This story about someone hating on Superman for what happened in MoS really is a Lex Luthor story, not a Batman one. It was never going to work with Batman for the simple reason that had the two of them actually talked Batman would have seen who Superman really was. If you replace Batman with Lex it's different because Batman isn't going to hate Superman once he knows who he is, but Lex is going to continue hating him no matter what. That's the fundamental flaw of this concept happening now. Had the two of them just talked this situation would never have happened.

I mostly agree with this. (There was no need for this movie to be about Batman 'vs' Superman when it should have really just been about Batman and Superman coming together, World's Finest style). However, I think it could have been done if the film stayed at least somewhat true to the two characters.

If the movie didn't have Batman as a 'quasi' bad guy (I say quasi because the film has him doing nothing but planning to kill Superman but never actually treats him like the actual bad guy as the film's plot really demanded that they do), there is basis to Batman's comic character feeling a need to check the power of someone like Superman. If they would have taken inspiration from something like JLA Tower of Babel and had more of their conflict derive from their differing approaches to crime fighting, it could work.

Instead, it really did focus on a singular issue that is not resolved at any point during the film but we move on anyway.

That scene would have been fine if it didn't feel so out of place and the characters had more scenes together.

It still would have been poorly written and also terri-bad for both characters in context.

Yeah that I all completely agree with. Even us defenders of the film can't admit that the movie is launchpad WB wanted. No matter what happens with Suicide Squad there will be a huge looming doubt on Justice League.

I guess the Martha scene really is the focal point for how I see haters and lovers on this film. Some use it and actually explain why it hit them emotionally or how it left them cold, they use actual arguments and articulate it well. Then you have the people who try and defend it with some over artsy BS that Snyder clearly wasn't going for.

But then you also have, and this is by far the most annoying and peculiar group, the people who are just seemingly intentionally pretending to not understand the movie. What I mean by that is, look at the Martha scene, there's memes galore about how stupid it is that you just have to say Martha to make Batman nutty. Even though it's clear as day that is symbolising Bruce seeing Clark as human. Whether you like how they done it is an entirely different argument. I personally don't like how they did it but I'm not gonna be a ******** about it and pretend that it was a dumb scene that made no sense when it makes absolute sense but just didn't sit right.

It's like when a rumour went round about you at school that was completely false. People just ignore the fact it's not true and laugh at you anyway.

But it is still a dumb scene that made no sense because Bruce seeing Clark as human or not really was not established as Bruce's issue with Superman. Bruce's issue with Superman is that he thinks he's an existential threat to humanity. The one thoroughly done well scene in the film is the prologue that establishes this.

This is the central conflict of the title and it simply is not addressed by the Martha business whatsoever.

Yes, the memes and some characterizations reduce it down even more, but it has nothing to do with people not getting what the 'intention' of the moment is.

It's because this is the context for launching the entire DC Cinematic Universe. Batman and Superman's break through moment. The foundation stone for the creation of the Justice League... and what we get is a dumb, poorly written and executed deus ex machina that fails to address the only understandable premise the entire film has developed.

And you think it's peculiar that it's so mercilessly mocked...?

 

[doobie]

One little gripe here. The superman montage felt very similar to returns to me, solemn religious tone. I think it would have been better if superman had flown down to the people on the roof and started patting their shoulder to show friendliness, instead of standing there godlike. Or shook hands and smiled with the Mexicans who wanted to touch him. It bothered me that the journalist narrator seemed to be rejecting the returns style with the "he's not a messiah, just a regular guy doing good" while the images on screen were contradicting that by having him act like a returns style messiah and not a regular hero. Like the writer of the words and the creator of the images were at odds.

 

[Jaxon]

Interesting observations. I've seen some of this myself.

My understanding of the Martha scene was the same; it made Bruce see him on an equal plane, as a human. I liked the scene itself, but found batman's turnabout to being on team Clark too sudden (but feeling "crammed in" was a problem for this film in general).

The reason Batman could turn around to Supermanso quickly is that deep down he was never against him. Batmam was against himself. He had come to a point where he saw his entire life as achieving nothing and directed his anger towards Superman. Alfred was trying to turn him around, he heard but didn't listen. So once he stopped and realised Superman was a man he realised it was he that was the problem all along and was basically apologising to him through his actions.

 

[samsnee]

It kills me that you have Snyder saying he doesn't know how to film a scene with two heroes discussing philosophical differences while in costume without looking silly, and yet it appears Civil War has done just that. I'm not trying to start a DC/Marvel thing, but if a director can't take his characters seriously, why should we? It really just appears Snyder just wanted to make a Dark Knight Returns movie and ignore all the other qualities that have defined these characters over the years.

 

[matt47]

Who knew that scene can be so cringeworthy? I was rolling my eyes at the awful lines and terrible delivery by both actors. I guess the fault lies with the screenwriters, but a bad scene nevertheless.

Yeah I wasn't feeling it when the clip was released but it was even worse in context.
I mean, Supes is telling Batman basically, "I'm the crime fighter now, you go away now." and in doing so lets henchmen with bazookas get away!

 

[Deserana]

And you think it's peculiar that it's so mercilessly mocked...?

Yep. Like I said there are posters like you who can actually convey their thoughts in to decent sentences. I get what your saying but for me personally it didn't hit me like that.

I thought the idea was good in theory with piss poor execution. The way they edited it between Batman on the throat of Superman and his mother was stupid as it did just make Batman seem wacko who heard his trigger word and went off.

Yet I still got what they were going for. I'm talking more about the posters who are just being so hyperbolic about that scene. Decent idea, bad execution yet again from Snyder but some are literally acting like that scene is the worst in CBM history.

 

[djsunyc]

that whole flash stuff should really have been an end credit scene. having it in the middle there made no sense whatsoever.

and some really poor story telling making him say it's about lois but the end climax scene wasn't about trying to save lois, but his mom instead.

 

[Cobblepot]

If they would have done an after credits scene, everybody would be saying "they should have put it in the movie, now they are just ripping off Marvel.".

 

[shauner111]

Nothing in the final battle makes that much sense. Lois goes back to get the spear after she threw it away. OK fine. But she starts drowning because the plot needs Superman to use the spear on Doomsday. Which is dumb to begin with because Wonder Woman is an amazon with this experience. She could have used the spear (you know, Kryptonite doesn't affect her). But the plot needs Superman to do it. After the Lois drowning fiasco, Supes goes under water to get it, even though Lois is fine now and could dip back in to get it with Clark watching over her to make sure she doesn't drown. Nope this makes both characters look embarrassingly dumb. He starts drowning because it's kryptonite. What a moron. What did he think was gonna happen? So Lois has to dive in to save his dumb ass. It's sooo idiotic that it makes me laugh. Superman almost drowned from just looking at the damn thing in the water, yet he has the ability to carry it in flight towards Doomsday without much effort. He doesn't launch it either, he uses the spear like a knife. Sacrifices himself cuz Zack wants Superman dead in order for Bruce to look smart as the leader. But none of this needed to happen. Lois could have taken the spear to Wonder Woman, who would use it, killing Doomsday. The trinity would be standing there ready to form the Justice League. Bruce and Clark could have had a great scene to talk things out, and a brighter ending where the heroes prevail to form the League.

Zack Snyder ladies and gentlemen!

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Lois goes back to get the spear after she threw it away. OK fine.

The Kent couple have stunning mental capability under pressure. Lois figured out the monster was Kryptonian just by hearing its roars. Superman figured out that if he called out his mother's name Batman will stop trying to kill him and become insta friends.