BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 2

[idiot09]

And, they think saying it aloud will stop Batman every time, under all circumstances.

I see many people having a problem with him having that PTSD kind of thing where a mention of Martha gives him a pause.And I relate to that,and I believe Affleck really sold it.But the hypocrisy is when people target that and then turn a blind eye when the same thing happened when crossbones says bucky's name and that stopped Steve.And you know what?I liked it that too.It made sense,it makes a character more human.What I dont like is the hypocrisy.[and yes I know those two scenes are different but the context of hearing a word which triggers a PTSD in them is the same].

 

[BrollySupersj]

The scene is a layer scene, as you said, Batman is paranoid and convinced that he has to kill Superman, to eliminate the 1 % chance that he will become another Zod. It's all there in Bruce's mind, the feeling of rage, powerlessness.

But when he first hears Superman say save Martha, Batman is broken out of his rage as he is surprised why on Earth will Superman take the that name.. why ?

It has been established earlier in the movie itself, the scenes at Wayne family Crypt, the Crypt demon Bat haunting Bruce in his mind, indication of how Bruce was reminded of how he felt helpless and powerless to save his mother and blamed himself (on some level) for that.

So, Batman is taken out of fight for a moment and he questions Superman "Why do you say that Name ?", it worth noting that even then, Batman is Not aware of Superman';s secret identity, Bats considers him to be alien who does not have any secret identity.

Now, the next part, when Lois Lane explains that it is his mother's name he starts to think, same things as I have posted before -



He also realizes that Superman is experiencing the same feeling of powerlessness as he is unable to save his mother, which is why Superman was taking her name.

Apart from that he also realizes that he and Supes both have been played as puppets by Lex Luthor, which means, his fears about Superman going the Zod way were in fact driven by the manipulations conducted by Lex Luthor, it was clear Batman has not thought everything and investigated the matter (for example, he was not even aware of Superman's secret identity and his life as reporter Clark Kent.) in depth before reaching the conclusion to kill the Alien.

He abandons his stupid plan.

Hm...fair enough.

 

[The Joker]

That doesn't organically work the way they set up ultra paranoid Batman in this movie.

Even when Justice Lords Batman taunted him with the knowledge of a little kid wanting his parents get killed, Batman put on an act and turned it into a long on game. If he's that convinced Superman has to be killed and undone and dangerous, why is the mention of Martha going to undue Batman? He was even mocking Superman about his parents and how his parents raised him earlier.

Exactly.

 

[TeeKay]

Then you are an exception.There are people,lots of them,who actually think they stopped fighting because their mothers have the same name.The posts are addressed to them.

Because that's way it comes across in the film hence why it's become such a laughing stock. Poor execution leads to that. I just didn't like it. It was not believeable to me. No one calls their mother by their first name. If I did I'd wouldn't be here to type this right now.

 

[idiot09]

Well,its pretty obvious why Clark mentions her by the first name,so that its easier for Bruce to find her.Also it maybe because Bruce hates him,he might not be too eager to save Superman's mother.Its not that hard to believe.

Then again,I bought it.Many people did.Many people didnt.Some did,but still like to joke about it,since thats cool nowadays.So whatever I guess.

 

[Greens]

Well,its pretty obvious why Clark mentions her by the first name,so that its easier for Bruce to find her.Also it maybe because Bruce hates him,he might not be too eager to save Superman's mother.Its not that hard to believe.

Then again,I bought it.Many people did.Many people didnt.Some did,but still like to joke about it,since thats cool nowadays.So whatever I guess.

How would having her name make it easier to find her? Is he gonna scream "MARTHA, WHERE ARE YOU" through a megaphone? I really liked the UC but the Martha thing is still something that bugs me a little. It's contrived.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Superman uses his mother's first name to illustrate that all he cares about in his dying moments is that a human life be saved. Martha is a human name, obviously, this can not be lost on Batman even in the state that he was in.

 

[Micromind]

Because that's way it comes across in the film hence why it's become such a laughing stock. Poor execution leads to that. I just didn't like it. It was not believeable to me. No one calls their mother by their first name. If I did I'd wouldn't be here to type this right now.

Batman wasn't aware who Superman's mother was (initially, Lois was not with them), so if he said something like " Save my mother", it wouldn't work, Superman has to say her name so that Batman could find her.

 

[Micromind]

How would having her name make it easier to find her? Is he gonna scream "MARTHA, WHERE ARE YOU" through a megaphone? I really liked the UC but the Martha thing is still something that bugs me a little. It's contrived.

It was Superman's desperate attempt, to try everything he can to save her, even if that meant asking for help from a (Bat)man who was trying to kill him.

 

[idiot09]

Also maybe Clark didnt want Bruce to know its his mother,since this is a guy with a deadly vendetta against him,who is to say he wouldnt kill his mother too.It might not have the best execution(if it had so many people wouldnt be in the dark) but I dont think its stupid,because its clearly not.

 

[ApophènX]

Actuzlly it could be more and twisted up a little. In the first dream sequence Bruce is lifted by the bat like a dark jesus, something really reminescent of Superman. As when he brings flowers to his mother grave it replicates Clark bringing flowers to Lois (when clark calls his mom there is flowers on the paint and the wall). Then Bruce dreams of the desert and thein again he put himself in the skin of Superman going to find the weakness of Superman, Superman weakness is also Lois/Martha (mother figure), kryptonite. Then he gets the vortex things that speaks about Lois.

All those dreams could be totally ****ed up and Martha could not even be his mother's name. He could be getting information from god knows where, because we knows his visions are in a sens prophetic, past and future melted. They could say he already knows who is Superman, a man like him, but doesn't want to accept it. They also shows his inferiority complex toward Superman when he replicates his action, the little boy doesn't want to share his cape and crusades. When he understand that Superman is just like him, plain sight, shadows to light in his face, it vanishes, they have the same mother, the same earth on a larger extent. Lex will betray his earth.

I thought the scene was flawed a bit, the flashback a bit heavy handed. I still have the emotion and understand why it works, in different ways. When Lois come by he also see himself in front of the man who killed his parents, he became the man who kills innocent people. This scene at the beggining was there for that reason i believe.

We could argue all those dreams of him and repressed memory come back in his face progressively, in the movie he feels powerless and let the rage lead him. That is why he replicates the action of his dream (stealing kryptonite the first) then attending to peoples live. Batman is not responding to reason but to something else, repressed memory or, if the knowledge come from elswhere, a higher power. So he acted like a madman religious in some ways, a devil.

 

[Greens]

Superman uses his mother's first name to illustrate that all he cares about in his dying moments is that a human life be saved. Martha is a human name, obviously, this can not be lost on Batman even in the state that he was in.

Batman wasn't aware who Superman's mother was (initially, Lois was not with them), so if he said something like " Save my mother", it wouldn't work, Superman has to say her name so that Batman could find her.

It was Superman's desperate attempt, to try everything he can to save her, even if that meant asking for help from a (Bat)man who was trying to kill him.

The first explanation sounds semi-plausible, but it still begs the question of why Superman didn't say anything before Batman beat the **** out of him.

 

[ApophènX]

The first explanation sounds semi-plausible, but it still begs the question of why Superman didn't say anything before Batman beat the **** out of him.

Because the film is about little boy only get to talk when a woman is there to calm there rage. "Democracy work when people talk to each other" "it is true what they say about little boy, they don't want to share" this underline perfectly why, plus Batman being in a blind rage let's not forget the obvious reason, there is no talk and only when Lois, a woman!, gzt there things begin to calm down. It's a man's world but a woman's word and sword to stop the childish and get together.

 

[idiot09]

Also Superman tried to talk,Batman just kept attacking him.Then Superman gave up and tried to subdue him,and thats when the kryptonite came into play.

 

[kalhawj]

What went wrong? The Ultimate cut was not release as the theatrical version. It's ashamed, although still not perfect it was far better movie and fix the story telling that most critics and GA complained about. I will not only watch the ultimate cut going forward.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

The first explanation sounds semi-plausible, but it still begs the question of why Superman didn't say anything before Batman beat the **** out of him.

I said this in another thread, so I'll just repeat it here:

Superman went in to talk to Batman and reason with him and right away Batman wanted nothing to do with it. So, Superman realizes he would just need to subdue him and should be able to do so easily, Batman is still just a man after all, but Superman underestimates him and we see what ends up happening.

The UC has the quote by the woman that Clark is interviewing saying Batman only understands fists. So that plays even more into that confrontation with Batman at the end where Superman tries to talk to him then realizes he is forced to having to subdue him.

 

[ApophènX]

Infind it is also interesting to see that Batman follow what happened in his dream like a religious person would do, a fanatic. And when he finally faces a god figure he is desperate in rage because it's not him. I think Batman idealize himself and Superman, only when he get to see it's just a man his rage and repressed memory vanish and he recover a more clear sight. Begin to talk again and listen the other. Because we come from the same place, and that is a strong message in a movie where Superman is still looking for his home, and most people don't accept him or in a god way. it will be interesting to see how the worlds accept him in the future, after he is reborn. More god or more man. Both?

 

[kalhawj]

I said this in another thread, so I'll just repeat it here:

Superman went in to talk to Batman and reason with him and right away Batman wanted nothing to do with it. So, Superman realizes he would just need to subdue him and should be able to do so easily, Batman is still just a man after all, but Superman underestimates him and we see what ends up happening.

The UC has the quote by the woman that Clark is interviewing saying Batman only understands fists. So that plays even more into that confrontation with Batman at the end where Superman tries to talk to him then realizes he is forced to having to subdue him.

Reason why the UC was the version that should have been release. That version a lone is better than the version release. We got to fully understand why Superman did what he did and had to resort to fighting. Sure it doesn't resolve the darker Batman and Superman, but the story telling is so much batter that it made the movie all that much better.

 

[Greens]

I said this in another thread, so I'll just repeat it here:

Superman went in to talk to Batman and reason with him and right away Batman wanted nothing to do with it. So, Superman realizes he would just need to subdue him and should be able to do so easily, Batman is still just a man after all, but Superman underestimates him and we see what ends up happening.

The UC has the quote by the woman that Clark is interviewing saying Batman only understands fists. So that plays even more into that confrontation with Batman at the end where Superman tries to talk to him then realizes he is forced to having to subdue him.

But he did utter about three sentences. Those three sentences could have contained essential information instrumental to his mother's survival. Instead, they were cliché lines like "there is no time". That's why it's so annoying.

I do agree that Superman underestimates Batman and couldn't predict what was about to happen. I just wish the screenwriter (whoever wrote this part, Terrio or Goyer) had been a bit more original.

 

[Limonade]

I see many people having a problem with him having that PTSD kind of thing where a mention of Martha gives him a pause.And I relate to that,and I believe Affleck really sold it.But the hypocrisy is when people target that and then turn a blind eye when the same thing happened when crossbones says bucky's name and that stopped Steve.And you know what?I liked it that too.It made sense,it makes a character more human.What I dont like is the hypocrisy.[and yes I know those two scenes are different but the context of hearing a word which triggers a PTSD in them is the same].

Interesting.

I don't believe Cap has PTSD associated with Bucky. At least, they never made that clear in any of his movies. He's simply looking for Bucky, and any information about him is worthy of a pause in battle.

But you know who does have a known PTSD condition? Iron Man.

 

[The Joker]

Ladies and germs, I'd leave any MCU talk out of this thread. C. Lee will bulldoze in here and dish out the probations.

 

[Flint Marko]

But he did utter about three sentences. Those three sentences could have contained essential information instrumental to his mother's survival. Instead, they were cliché lines like "there is no time". That's why it's so annoying.

I do agree that Superman underestimates Batman and couldn't predict what was about to happen. I just wish the screenwriter (whoever wrote this part, Terrio or Goyer) had been a bit more original.

Exactly. Superman only puts forth generic, vague lines that obviously won't deter Batman and instead resorts to shoving and punching him without communicating any pertinent details regarding the situation. None.

I can't decide who is portrayed as dumber, Batman for wanting to kill someone who saved the entire human race, or Superman for wasting time wrestling with Batman while his mom's life was on the line. Either way, this scene should appear in the dictionary next to the word "contrived".

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Exactly. Superman only puts forth generic, vague lines that obviously won't deter Batman and instead resorts to shoving and punching him.

I can't decide who is portrayed as dumber, Batman for wanting to kill someone who saved the entire human race, or Superman for wasting time wrestling with Batman while his mom's life was on the line. Either way, a picture of this scene should appear next to the word "contrived" in the dictionary.

For Batman, it was a case of good men fall. He was jaded and cynical at this point. He had experienced good people turning bad. Difference here now though is that if Superman goes bad he can wipe out the entire planet. Not the same as Harvey Dent going bad. He can watch Superman doing heroic deeds all day, again, Dent was a good man who turned bad. In his mind, if that possibility was there with someone like Superman, he felt like he had to act on it.

Superman had no other options. His super hearing would not have picked up anything, her mouth was gagged at one point and at other times she never uttered a word. She was captive in an area where Batman was by far the best resource to use. He thought he could get through to him, first by talking, then by needing to subdue him but he was overtaken.

 

[Flint Marko]

For Batman, it was a case of good men fall. He was jaded and cynical at this point. He had experienced good people turning bad. Difference here now though is that if Superman goes bad he can wipe out the entire planet. Not the same as Harvey Dent going bad. He can watch Superman doing heroic deeds all day, again, Dent was a good man who turned bad. In his mind, if that possibility was there with someone like Superman, he felt like he had to act on it.

Spending 18 months devising a way to kill someone who protected the entire planet and who regularly flies around the world saving people from natural disasters and burning buildings is stupidity, especially when you consider that the movie opens up on this conflict by showing Bruce in anguish over people in his office building dying as if Superman is to blame. He didn't have a conversation with the guy, he didn't do any research, he just decided that Superman must be stopped. Again, it isn't "cynicism". The way that the movie presented it is best described as "stupidity".

Superman had no other options. His super hearing would not have picked up anything, her mouth was gagged at one point and at other times she never uttered a word. She was captive in an area where Batman was by far the best resource to use. He thought he could get through to him, first by talking, then by needing to subdue him but he was overtaken.

On two separate occasions Superman flew from around the planet to save Lois, so I don't buy for a second that he is unable pinpoint where his mother was. It's especially ridiculous when you consider that his mother is supposedly the one who helped him hone his powers of perception, yet apparently Lois is the only person in his life who benefits from this ability. Again, another contrivance.

Secondly, he put very little effort into actually talking to Batman. He has a total of one or two lines before he started hitting and threatening him, and again, none of those lines (as usual with this Superman) contained anything of value which would calm down Batman or make him come around to Superman's side, and the clock was ticking. So why Superman decided that shoving and threatening this guy would be the best way to convince him defies explanation.

 

[idiot09]

Interesting.

I don't believe Cap has PTSD associated with Bucky. At least, they never made that clear in any of his movies. He's simply looking for Bucky, and any information about him is worthy of a pause in battle.

But you know who does have a known PTSD condition? Iron Man.

Maybe not exactly PTSD but more of an emotional pull and all that baggage that comes with that.And as a Cap fan I empathized with that.Like he said,as soon as he heard Bucky's name he was back in Brooklyn as a kid.I loved it.Similarly I also loved how as soon as Bruce heard Martha he was a helpless kid who couldnt save his parents,and that resonated with him,cause Superman was in the same position.Idk man,I liked them both,and I find it sad fans cant appreciate that.