BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 2

[Batmannerism]

none of that contradicts what I was saying.
being so-so isn't necessarily negative. Mad max has a simple plot and you acknowledge that but still enjoy the overall product.

My thing is that you can't like a certain aspect of something, but then think it was "bad". Like a certain performance.
"I really liked this actor's performance, but I think it was a pretty bad performance" This will never not sound completely dumb to me.

Okay, I get you now. Kind of like, I can't say that I hate the taste of Mars bars, and then in the next breath say I love the taste of Mars bars.

Yeah, that's logical - but I suspect a lot of the opinions around this film are more nuanced (as in there were aspects of the plot that people liked, but they hated the pacing, or perhaps hated the way that some elements got emphasized over others ). Also, liking-not liking can sometimes be a pretty nebulous distinction, as in sometimes you don't like something initially, but grow to love it or you can enjoy a thing when you're in a certain mood.

Kind of like what Obi-Wan said about Truth.

Cheers.

 

[Batmannerism]

Just thought of another "guilty pleasure" film....Lara Croft:Tomb Raider.

It is a spectacularly dumb movie, but great fun to watch.

Pacific Rim somehow elevates the guilty pleasure to get some critical acclaim - it was awesome.

 

[Manofplastic]

Just thought of another "guilty pleasure" film....Lara Croft:Tomb Raider.

It is a spectacularly dumb movie, but great fun to watch.

true. it saddens me that somehow this dumb brainless movie - which is really just done back then for the amount of people wanting to stare during a movie-time at the boobs of angelina jolie - is mentioned in a BvS topic.

Pacific Rim somehow elevates the guilty pleasure to get some critical acclaim - it was awesome.

errr no. pacific rim was bloodsucking stupid and a total waste of time.
it was worse then tomb raider, it only contained more special effects.

either way, i am still letdown with BvS. i havent seen it twice, and that really says it all. i went 2 times to Jurassic World, and seen the Blu-ray twice also. I went 2 times to The Dark Knight Rises, seen the Dark Knight 3 times in the cinema, and Batman Begins just once though it was great.
I've seen the Nolan trilogy about 4 times in 1 run. Matter of fact, i could sit back and enjoy the trilogy once again as we speak, it doesn't wear down - atleast to me.

The thing is, MoS was pretty great, it was different and it had a cool factor. The ending still is pretty unsuperman - the kill - and it's like it just 'ended' at a certain point without knowing why it ended, why it ended, and whether this was what the movie was going for. Either way, it was acceptable.

now, BvS, i had extremely high expectations.Not just because the I Am Legend poster legendary comes to life, but because of all the potential, and surely the hype.
I still believe Affleck is absolutely great as Batman but somehow i feel like he was 'nurtured' just a tad for the movie. I had expected a grimmer and grittier Batman. The fact that Batman kills in this movie absolutely destroys the persona and specialism about batman. It was highly unneccesary, batman would have been darker and grittier if he just really really really hurt the 'bad guys'. Broken bones, broken legs, a bat-blade planted straight through a hand or arm.

for me, this movie lost its potential and spirit completely when superman yelled 'martha will die' and batman changed 180 degrees from him. I could imagine him being surprised, it wasnt even that bad of a 'snap' to pauze his intention from terminating supes.
but the wrong is twofold here ; batman should not been 'wishing' to terminate superman there. he should have hammered hard into him to show him he's not invincible.
but batman then appearing @ martha's location and telling her 'i'm a friend of your son'.....that was just unforgivable bad scripting. really?

and the obvious: Doomsday. i actually wasn't even that disappoint with the execution, just that he was rendered quite bad, and in the end - the rushed in death of superman.

personally, i think this movie should have been cut in 2 like the storie it was based off. Like the way for example the Matrix:Reloaded left a cliffhanger for the quickly-following Matrix:Revolutions - which was effectively part 2 of Reloaded.

It would have given a grand opportunity for more character building, and the 'pauze' in between the movies would have created a certain satisfaction in that the movie wasn't rushed in all together.
They could have shortened the movie by half an hour atleast, figure an hour, and then they'd have that final hour available to be extened by another hour which would give them the opportunity to bring a little less pace to both and add some elements.

For example the possibility of Jimmy Olsen to be more then just a 'traitor' that got a headshot point blank. CIA, really? they would have done a lot better to have superman discovering jimmy was not dead by the gunshot and have him saved.

and the bomb incident could have been handled better that way too. not to mention the rushed and awkward inclusion of 'origin' stories of the flash and cyborg.

but well that's my opinion.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

none of that contradicts what I was saying.
being so-so isn't necessarily negative. Mad max has a simple plot and you acknowledge that but still enjoy the overall product.

My thing is that you can't like a certin aspect of something, but then think it was "bad". Like a certain performance.
"I really liked this actor's performance, but I think it was a pretty bad performance" This will never not sound completely dumb to me.

Lol I can think of half a dozen Nic Cage performances that utterly disprove what you're saying.

The guilty pleasure isn't that complicated a concept to wrap your head around. Try harder.

 

[P Supreme]

I agree with the guilt pleasure thing for me I enjoy punisher warzone especially Dominic West hammy performance as jigsaw but the movie is awful no question

back on topic

JESSE EISENBERG 100000000x

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Great example.

And to be fair, I don't think BvS is s good candidate for a guilty pleasure type deal for most viewers. Too much (wasted) tAlent and money in front of and behind the camera for a "so bad it's fun" scenario. Purely my opinion of course.

 

[FunkMiller]

Great example.

And to be fair, I don't think BvS is s good candidate for a guilty pleasure type deal for most viewers. Too much (wasted) tAlent and money in front of and behind the camera for a "so bad it's fun" scenario. Purely my opinion of course.

It's not actually bad enough for that. There's a certain joy in watching a truly bad movie and attempting to get enjoyment out of it. Batman & Robin for instance, is cinematic excrement, but we still all love the dumb Schwarzenegger lines, and it's reached a point now where it's fun to watch on a 'this is so bad it's laughable' kind of way.

BvS is just mediocre. It's like Spiderman 3. Or The Matrix Revolutions. It's a damp squib. A film that is lesser than the sum of its parts. No-one will be watching this ironically in ten years, garnering some kind of masochistic enjoyment from it. It's not memorable.

 

[samsnee]

It's not actually bad enough for that. There's a certain joy in watching a truly bad movie and attempting to get enjoyment out of it. Batman & Robin for instance, is cinematic excrement, but we still all love the dumb Schwarzenegger lines, and it's reached a point now where it's fun to watch on a 'this is so bad it's laughable' kind of way.

BvS is just mediocre. It's like Spiderman 3. Or The Matrix Revolutions. It's a damp squib. A film that is lesser than the sum of its parts. No-one will be watching this ironically in ten years, garnering some kind of masochistic enjoyment from it. It's not memorable.

Snyder will.

 

[Vortigern99]

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'll be watching it in ten years' time, I think, and not ironically. Unless by then I've grown sick of it after watching it too many times, as with the original Superman or Batman Begins.

Over 62% of the members of this forum have rated BvS 7 or higher on a scale of 1-10. I will hazard a guess that those people will be watching the movie in ten years, and still enjoying the heck out of it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is a fast paced, screwy narrative that challenges you to keep up without holding your hand. You don't get everything on the first watch, but you feel like you've watched a cohesive narrative. This is rewarded on a second viewing as you fully unravel its complex, but well told narrative.

BvS is simply poorly told. It's not some deep and complex narrative that you have to watch more than once. It's shallow and convoluted that you have to break your back to justify some of it.

 

[Vortigern99]

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is a fast paced, screwy narrative that challenges you to keep up without holding your hand. You don't get everything on the first watch, but you feel like you've watched a cohesive narrative. This is rewarded on a second viewing as you fully unravel its complex, but well told narrative.

BvS is simply poorly told. It's not some deep and complex narrative that you have to watch more than once. It's shallow and convoluted that you have to break your back to justify some of it.

I disagree. I've read any number of criticisms of BvS that viewers couldn't understand this or that plot point. Yet it's all right there in the film. It goes by fast, but everything is well accounted for. I think it may seem convoluted to a first-time viewer, but on re-watch everything is crystal clear.

I enjoyed BvS the first time but didn't connect all the plot points. In the rush of excitement I missed a few clarifying lines of dialogue. In my second viewing I drew those connections easily. The third time for me was pure exhilaration, as I didn't have to do any work mentally, and could just sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

[Frodo]

For me the film really didn't work on multiple levels from story , to characterization, to pacing. I will say though I did chuckle quite a bit through the Desert Batman sequence all the way through to the "Do you bleed" confrontation. The Flash dream scene I found hysterical actually. I still crack up at alot of the film when I think about it to be honest .

I can't say that I hate the film so much that I curse it and get angry about it , but by the same token, I've only seen it once, and I really don't have a desire to see it again . I feel that they really blew what should have been low hanging fruit from a creative standpoint , but at the same time , what's done is done, and the film is in the can.

I am interested in finding out what happened behind the scenes and during the development process, and to get into their heads a bit in terms of what led them to do certain creative choices. I'm more interested in seeing the making of features than the actual film itself.

 

[Luke234]

Loved everything. Can't wait to see it again.

 

[jmc]

Having seen Civil War I know what the problem is, there's no heart to this movie. No core narrative plot point that binds everything together.

 

[FunkMiller]

Having seen Civil War I know what the problem is, there's no heart to this movie. No core narrative plot point that binds everything together.

Seen it too. Boy, the comparisons are not going to be good...

 

[FunkMiller]

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'll be watching it in ten years' time, I think, and not ironically. Unless by then I've grown sick of it after watching it too many times, as with the original Superman or Batman Begins.

Over 62% of the members of this forum have rated BvS 7 or higher on a scale of 1-10. I will hazard a guess that those people will be watching the movie in ten years, and still enjoying the heck out of it.

Okay, when I saw 'no one' I mean the vast majority of people.

 

[Jaxon]

Having seen Civil War I know what the problem is, there's no heart to this movie. No core narrative plot point that binds everything together.

Different stories, one is about the end of a long friendship, one is about the journey to becoming human and regaining of lost humanity.

They are built on a very different premise, but people will only analyse on a surface level. That's why Marvel does well, it's very surface level, so easy to understand for the masses. Bit like saying Cadbury is the best chocolate in the world.

 

[jmc]

Different stories, one is about the end of a long friendship, one is about the journey to becoming human and regaining of lost humanity.

They are built on a very different premise, but people will only analyse on a surface level. That's why Marvel does well, it's very surface level, so easy to understand for the masses. Bit like saying Cadbury is the best chocolate in the world.

They're not that different actually. And this isn't surface level. You pretty much insulting the writers of CW if you think it's mere surface level material. It delves far deeper in who the characters are than you are suggesting. Sadly, I'm not surprised by this type of comment nor do I expect it to be the last.

 

[Link]

Different stories, one is about the end of a long friendship, one is about the journey to becoming human and regaining of lost humanity.

They are built on a very different premise, but people will only analyse on a surface level. That's why Marvel does well, it's very surface level, so easy to understand for the masses. Bit like saying Cadbury is the best chocolate in the world.

That's really not the case with Civil War. I haven't considered the earlier MCU movies very substancial (with the exception of The Winter Soldier), but this one really is. It's still "easy to understand" because it's incredibly well made and written. It's smart and juggles some very deep themes completely unheard of in the movie series, it's X-Men deep. And without going too spoilery, these movies do share several plot points and directions to a point where it's almost tragic. It's just a matter of execution.

I like the chocolate metaphor. To me, Civil War was a rich expensive dark chocolate, just sweet enough for everyone to enjoy it. BvS was made of another kind of expensive wonderful chocolate, maybe with some really good fudge that was going to be a sure hit for everyone. Unfortunately that chocolate is now rotten (no pun intended), and there really isn't all that much left to enjoy, even if you can see why it should have worked. Maybe chocolate should be the new indicator of quality here What kind of chocolate would Catwoman or X-Men Origins: Wolverine be?

To conclude, I was far more excited for BvS than I was for Civil War, but I'm not going to stand with something that utterly failed it's rather simple task of making three of the world's most popular superheroes work.

 

[The Guard]

Having seen Civil War I know what the problem is, there's no heart to this movie. No core narrative plot point that binds everything together.

How is Superman's emergence, existence and impact on the world and the world's reaction to him not a core narrative plot? The entire film revolves around it.

 

[Matt]

Different stories, one is about the end of a long friendship, one is about the journey to becoming human and regaining of lost humanity.

They are built on a very different premise, but people will only analyse on a surface level. That's why Marvel does well, it's very surface level, so easy to understand for the masses. Bit like saying Cadbury is the best chocolate in the world.

They're not that different actually. And this isn't surface level. You pretty much insulting the writers of CW if you think it's mere surface level material. It delves far deeper in who the characters are than you are suggesting. Sadly, I'm not surprised by this type of comment nor do I expect it to be the last.

Its not just writers he is insulting. Its the audience. I love this new narrative that BvS apologists are running with. "Its too deep for audiences to get." No. It isn't. I get every theme of BvS. I get every heavy handed, melodramatic, double-entendre that comes out of Lex Luthor's mouth. There is nothing deep or intellectual about it. The themes are not hidden beneath the surface. They are all surface level and beaten over the viewer's head with the subtlety of a high school student who is preaching about philosophy. There is nothing complex about this movie. Its not 2001. There aren't hundreds of little, hidden messages, themes, etc. I got everything. The problem isn't that the audience is missing Snyder's point. Its that Snyder's delivery of the point just isn't that good.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Wait, wasn't "Superman's emergence, existence and impact on the world" the core narrative plot of MoS? I forget.

 

[shauner111]

Luthors dialogue and behaviour was completely unnatural.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Well maybe it wasn't the "real" Lex Luthor.

I for one am anticipating the release of a DCEU One Shot that explains that his dad is actually still alive. And he's really pissed at what his crazy, dukeebag dumass of a son had done to his company and his reputation.

Lex Sr. will be played by a very bald Brian Cranston.

That should make everyone happy, no?

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Wait, wasn't "Superman's emergence, existence and impact on the world" the core narrative plot of MoS? I forget.

They're just plot points.

Civil War is about whether people should give up civil liberties and freedom or the sake of safety and security. That's what the whole narrative is built around.

BvS is about Batman and Superman fighting. Snyder kept saying "mythical" and "epic" a lot in interviews so it might be about those too.