What you didn't like about Captain America: Civil War - Flaws/Critiques - Part 1

Discussion in 'Captain America: Civil War' started by Thread Manager, May 18, 2016.

  1. Schlosser85 A Very Stable Genius

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    IIRC Chris Evans mentioned that some of his scenes with Sebastian Stan were originally longer and had more dialogue.
     
  2. Capsfan Registered

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    So this rumor seems legit. Shame on you, Marvel. Shame on you!

    Anyway, I've perceived their relationship in CW as being full of hidden guilt. From Steve's part obviously. He acts like he feels no right to come close to Bucky. I suppose he still thinks what happened to Bucky is his fault. It doesn't help that Bucky tried to pretend like he didn't remember Steve at all and didn't want to reconnect with him.
     
  3. Schlosser85 A Very Stable Genius

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    I think Bucky wants to keep Steve at a distance because his own guilt about killing innocent people as The Winter Soldier, he doesn't think he's worth the trouble Steve gets himself into on his behalf, as he mentions on the jet, and also because he doesn't want to get into another situation where he hurts Steve again.

    And yea, Steve takes everything onto his own shoulders, so he probably blames himself for "letting" Bucky fall like he was doing in the bar with Peggy in the first Cap movie, only the guilt is probably exponentially amplified now knowing everything that happened to Bucky being tortured and brainwashed and forced to kill for decades.
     
  4. Schlosser85 A Very Stable Genius

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    Thaddeus Ross' presentation was fairly flimsy and it irritated me that not one of them even tried to defend themselves against his crap. You can't objectively blame New York or Washington on The Avengers, and Ross is hardly in a position to be casting stones considering he was at least inadvertently responsible for Abomination and the destruction he caused.
     
  5. NotNickFury Registered

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    Well, with them looking at the footage right in front of them, what would they have even said in their defense? Collateral damage? At least as far as New York goes, the Avengers did try to contain the damage to a few blocks.
     
  6. Schlosser85 A Very Stable Genius

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    That without them it would have been infinitely worse? That they stopped HYDRA from bombing 7,000 people?
     
  7. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    If the characters were logical, or at least consistent, there would be no Civil War.
     
  8. dax Registered

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    They should say that it's all SHIELD's fault for messing with the Tesseract which brought Loki and his alien army to earth.

    They should also say that it's the US Government's own fault for recruiting Dr. Zola thus allowing him to plant extra HYDRA agents inside SHIELD so that one day, they will take over both SHIELD and US congress, gain access to the hellicarriers, and use them to gun down anyone they see as enemies. By extension, HYDRA's takeover puts Crossbones in a position to blow himself up at Lagos.

    Now granted, the Sokovia disaster may be Iron Man's fault because he built Ultron in the first place but he did it behind the Avengers' backs. None of them feel that they should be put in check by the United Nations nor should they all be punished for Tony's screwup.
     
  9. Capsfan Registered

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    People always forget that Ultron wasn't only Tony's screw up. It was Banner's and Wanda's as well.
     
  10. King23DC Registered

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    Don't worry, it's still there in spades even with the cut extended scenes.
     
  11. TheVileOne Registered

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    I guess rewatching a movie, they have that big talk scene, and Steve talks about taking responsibility for their action. And Steve has some good points and nice platitudes, but how are they taking responsibility exactly? It's like he has nice platitudes, but his arguments lack substance.

    We've known from elsewhere that Tony is the one spearheading cleanup efforts and victim aide after global incidents. But what did Steve mean have in mind?

    I dunno, the movie just IMHO doesn't do the best job of justifying Steve's point of view other than how Ross was basically holding them accountable for events that were not their fault. If I was Steve, I'd be like, "Trusting SHIELD and the government to be involved didn't work. SHIELD was dirty. The government was dirty. We're not. The World Security Council wanted to nuke Manhattan." Seriously, not one person mentioned that. Maybe Steve was being solemn and quiet because of what happened in Africa, but someone else could've piped in and mentioned that, specifically Natasha. Tony was feeling guilty what had happened before, so I get why he was being quiet.

    I guess my issue is that Avengers acting under government authority is not something new that started with Civil War. It had existed within the comics for years going back to the 1960s.

    By making compromises, Steve Rogers should've been willing to submit to some sort of investigation or UN tribunal. Look the fact is they screwed up and innocent people died as a result of one of their battles. Maybe had they not been there things could've gotten worse, but the present day, Steve can't just sit on the fence and act like the Avengers are above reproach. I guess my problem is, that he talks about taking responsibility without ever actually stepping up to do so.
     
    #161 TheVileOne, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  12. ARA Registered

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    Someone described the central concept of the movie as an orphanage being burn down and people blaming the good Samaritan who tries to help, and ignore the arsonist.

    It really is hard to overlook that.
     
  13. Steamteck Registered

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    I kind of felt that also. There are some story concepts so bad IMO that even the MCU can't redeem them and this was one for me.
     
  14. Steamteck Registered

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    I felt the same way about this also.
     
  15. TheVileOne Registered

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    Yeah, there's really no good reason at all for Steve not coming clean about that. Especially if he considered Tony to be his friend. At the very least, he could've told him that HYDRA was responsible for what happened to his parents.
     
  16. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    The Civil War comic at least made sense. A school got blown up because untrained superheroes got involved, and would never have been blown up otherwise.

    So this was a concept unique to the MCU.
     
  17. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    Except for that the superheroes in question *weren't* untrained, and the school being blown up had nothing to do with any error made by them. . .
     
  18. BullMcGiveny Probably Disagree

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    Picking up a fight with a bunch of supervillains who was definitely an error.
     
  19. NotNickFury Registered

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    I wouldn't put this on the Russos, but just because of how much I like the character, I don't like that Peggy was limited to an off-screen death. Sure, it's tragic that Steve didn't get his goodbye and I get that's the point of it, but Peggy Carter just can't catch a break. In general, not because of the writers. Her show had just gotten axed that same month, her last encounter with Steve was when she was riddled with dementia, and then she doesn't get a last dance or an on-screen death.

    Just wasn't Peggy Carter's year in 2016.
     
  20. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    They were felons on the run from the law, and the school was nowhere near the danger radius of any of their known powers. There was no reason not to go after them there, especially since the New Warriors had several members who could very readily keep the fight from going anywhere too dangerous.

    Except that, as it turns out, one of them was vastly, ridiculously more powerful than he had ever been before. Something they had no way to know. . . and neither would any other super team without a literal psychic.
     
  21. NealKenneth Registered

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    I loved this film. The airport scene, the reveal about Tony's parents, the final battle...I will never forget watching this film for the first time. But that doesn't mean it couldn't have been even better. Several things, like Spider-Man, Ant-Man and Steve's relationship with Bucky, are not effectively set up within the film. Therefore, almost every change I would make to the film happens very early on.

    The first change would be in Lagos. Instead of a biological weapon, Crossbones is after the blue fluid that creates Winter Soldiers. During the battle, the Avengers are able to recapture all but a single bag of the fluid. In the confusion after the explosion, The Avengers switch to helping civilians and the last bag escapes with Zemo, whom Crossbones is revealed to have been working for. Along with the bag of fluid is a a cache of documents where Zemo finds out about Bucky. This is when Zemo decides to change his tactic from using the fluid to create supersoldiers to turning the Avengers against each other. These changes tighten up the plot slightly and push Zemo's introduction to earlier in the film.

    Next is the scene where General Ross introduces the Sokovia Accords. After explaining the basics, he should also have mentioned "vigilantes" or "imitators" while showing footage of Spider-Man and Ant-Man. For a few seconds and a couple lines of dialogue, this would have made their inclusion later in the film feel much less contrived.

    The final and biggest change I would have made would be changing how Steve and Bucky reunite. After The Winter Soldier, the whole "does he remember Steve or not" angle had been worked a lot and was played out for me. I would have liked to see that Steve had found Bucky offscreen sometime before Civil War and that they would meeting in secret from then on. The perfect time to unveil this would have been after Peggy's funeral, where Bucky could be shown watching from a distance (he knew Peggy too.) Steve and Bucky could go to a bar and hang out for awhile, making it clear that Bucky remembers Steve. Later on when it seems Bucky has bombed the Accords, the relationship between Bucky and Steve is better defined and thus more tense.

    There are other smaller changes I would have made but these are the biggest.
     
  22. Capsfan Registered

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    Sorry, but you've missed the whole point of Bucky's arc in the movie. It was necessary that he was on the run even from Steve. Otherwise he would have had alibi and Zemo couldn't have framed him so easily.
     
  23. NealKenneth Registered

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    Bucky's alibi would have worked just as well if Steve were the only one to know...he's the only one who believes Bucky anyway. Zemo would have framed him just as easily as he did either way.
     
  24. Capsfan Registered

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    You would think Steve would have tried to reinstate Bucky somehow, had he found him.

    And it's not only about alibi. Bucky's arc in this movie is about not trusting anyone in the beginning and being on the run from everyone, including Steve, evolving into admitting in the end that he needs help and trusting BP and Steve with going into cryo stasis.
     
  25. Capsfan Registered

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    That's not an accurate information about screentime.
    This is more recent one. (Also this: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls066620113/) Sharon gets 5 minutes and BW - 12.
    And you forgot that Spidey's 8:30 includes his post-credit scene.
    I've actually grabbed stop-watch myself and counted Spidey's screentime in the airport since we are talking about this sequence. He has 3:54 including all the group shots and scenes. Out of 17 minutes of the whole airport fight. I've also counted his individual fight scenes that wouldn't have been there without him - Spidey vs Bucky and Sam, Spidey vs Cap - they only take 2:15.
    I don't believe they couldn't have afforded to make the movie 3 minutes longer, sorry, it's ridiculous.

    Civil War is 2.5 with credits. People (I mean, general audience) usually don't watch credits, so it was 2.20 really.
    What are they gonna do with IW then? How are they gonna handle it if they were unable to fit Spidey in CW's fight without cutting anyone out? ScarJo said they have a scene with 32 characters in it!!
    I miss the times of Lord of the Rings, tbh.
     
    #175 Capsfan, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017

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