Whats with the snobs!?!

Matt

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And by snobs I mean posts like this:

Do we need Moneypenny in this new era of 007?

Ever since Casino Royale, a snobbish attitude has developed towards previous Bond movies. Be it Q, or Moneypenny, or the other actors or practically anything. Why is that? I mean, sure, Casino Royale was a good movie, but so were alot of the 20-something Bonds prior to it. Casino Royale is not the end-all Bond. James Bond can still be gritty and adult and stay true to his roots. Q, Moneypenny, gadgets, cool cars, all that...they are part of Bond's legacy. Why do we have to neglect all of that just because Casino Royale was good?
 
Because... it was Casino Royale? I for one would like to see Moneypenny and Q (No John Cleese though) and gadgets
 
And by snobs I mean posts like this:



Ever since Casino Royale, a snobbish attitude has developed towards previous Bond movies. Be it Q, or Moneypenny, or the other actors or practically anything. Why is that? I mean, sure, Casino Royale was a good movie, but so were alot of the 20-something Bonds prior to it. Casino Royale is not the end-all Bond. James Bond can still be gritty and adult and stay true to his roots. Q, Moneypenny, gadgets, cool cars, all that...they are part of Bond's legacy. Why do we have to neglect all of that just because Casino Royale was good?

I think Moneypenny is still relevant to the world of James Bond, but she should show up only when the script needs it, not just for the sake of it. Q, I am not so sure, because I feel that the role belonged to Desmond Llewellyn, and because the character and the use they made of him quickly became a caricature. Something that indeed we don't need in Bond movies. No more self-parody. This is why they should also be careufl with the gadgetry. The best Bond had relatively few gadgets (even in Goldfinger, where Bond's Aston martin is ultimately useless against Goldfinger's men). Bond is an action man, not a guy pushing buttons. So again, they should be used when necessary, but with moderation, and be kept in the realm of plausibilities.
 
I think Moneypenny is still relevant to the world of James Bond, but she should show up only when the script needs it, not just for the sake of it. Q, I am not so sure, because I feel that the role belonged to Desmond Llewellyn, and because the character and the use they made of him quickly became a caricature. Something that indeed we don't need in Bond movies. No more self-parody. This is why they should also be careufl with the gadgetry. The best Bond had relatively few gadgets (even in Goldfinger, where Bond's Aston martin is ultimately useless against Goldfinger's men). Bond is an action man, not a guy pushing buttons. So again, they should be used when necessary, but with moderation, and be kept in the realm of plausibilities.

I don't think the realm of plausibilities is a neccessity. It is a spy-fantasy. It does not need to be 100 % grounded in reality. As for the self-parody...I disagree to an extent. Comic relief isn't neccessarily self-parody.
 
Well, I respectfully disagree. The fat that it needs careful attention doesn't mean that they should play it safe.
And Moneypenny never added anything to the script. She was there as a character filling the Bond world.
Q should be handled seriously, however I don't see the reason why he shouldn't provide a little comic relief. After all, he and Bond were always teasing each other and good moments came out of this.
Anyway, I, too, don't understand why they shouldn't bring them in. They're part of the Bond world and pieces (however small or not) that helped made the movies (and books) what they are now.

PS: This is a response to everyman. Matt, we agree.
 
Matt said:
I mean, sure, Casino Royale was a good movie, but so were alot of the 20-something Bonds prior to it.
CASINO ROYALE was the best Bond movie since the 60s, and in many ways, pointed to a new route for Bond: to produce James Bond films instead of James Bond movies.

Matt said:
Q, Moneypenny, gadgets, cool cars, all that...they are part of Bond's legacy.
Well, we still have cool cars.

But Q and Moneypenny and gadgets have been done to death. Quite frankly, they're just kind of boring. Q was Desmond Llewellyn, and once he died, the character didn't really need to exist. Moneypenny was Lois Maxwell, and once she was gone, the character didn't really need to exist, either.

I wouldn't really mind seeing Q and Moneypenny show up again at some point (but in very different forms, mind you), but they should only be used when the story calls for it. The best thing to do is to stay away from formulaic moments, and to be risky. At one point, these characters weren't so formulaic, and still felt fresh and fun. But as of DIE ANOTHER DAY, they didn't.

Getting rid of the formulaic bagged was what gave the Bond franchise fresh appeal in CASINO ROYALE.

Matt said:
Why do we have to neglect all of that just because Casino Royale was good?
What CASINO ROYALE represented was a freedom from formula. After 40 years, the formula was literally strangling the series to death, and nowhere was that more apparent than in the Brosnan years. Things had to be shaken up, so something new could be done with Bond. We needed to get beyond the "seen one Bond film seen 'em all" feel the franchise had gotten.

Matt said:
Comic relief isn't neccessarily self-parody.
But it often has been in the Bond franchise. Anyway, CASINO ROYALE had tons of humor.
 
I wouldn't be completely against more realistic gadgets, but if they get carried away, it's the first step towards some of the ridiculousness that turned the franchise into a joke in the first place.

as for Q and Moneypenny... I understand they're part of Bond's legacy, but I honestly didn't miss them AT ALL in CR. though you could definitely find a place for them "in this new era of 007".
 
What CASINO ROYALE represented was a freedom from formula.

There is your answer Matt, is that people conjuring up things that are half-true. Let's clear something up Casino Royale simply played with the formula, it did not reinvent it. Truely look LONG and hard at it... You realize the plot structure is very similar to earlier bond films? First 15 minutes is some type of action sequence that's very loosely connected to teh general plot, Bond meets/sleeps with two women that have something they can offer him in terms of the plot, one betrays him like always, there's an entertainingly cartoony bad guy with henchmen, etc... All that Casino Royale did was change the tone, and injected a little vulnerability into Bond to make him more relatable to the audience.

However that is not the issue, it simply fanboys being fanboys. Look at hte Transformer boards, there's plenty of elitist snobs who fail to see the fact that the TF story has been told a hundred times different times in a hundred different ways, and it's pretty ridiculous to say any one way is the "right" TF mythos. I say it derives most likely from kids who have nothing else to feel superior about so they figure out ways to be negative about **** and feel superior.
 
Personally, there's nothing wrong with MP or Q, it's all about the execution of how the characters are portrayed. Look at the first 3 Bond movies and see how MP and Q's characters were. They weren't hammed up or trying to be scene stealers. They were dignified and of course allowed for familiarity, especially during the changes of the Bond character himself.
MP should remain and be kept as the secretary with a crush on Bond, who engages and exchanges mild and harmless retorts with Bond. I dont want another Samantha Bond who spewed nothing but sexual innuendos.
As for Q, look at FRWL, thats how he should be but a bit more relaxed as opposed to flat out comic relief.
 
Let's clear something up Casino Royale simply played with the formula, it did not reinvent it.
Who said it reinvented it? I said it represented "freedom from formula." I didn't say it entirely abandoned it. Much of the Bond iconography is still there (and rightfully so, it's "Bond Begins," after all). But it's not in the same fixed, cookie-cutter manner of past films, which is what makes the difference.

In many ways, the film is intentionally playful with that iconography. The gunbarrel is delayed, the first car Bond has is a Ford Mondeo (and effectively "earns" his Aston as the movie goes on), Bond actually doesn't sleep with the first girl he meets, the villain is actually fighting out of fear rather than for something else, the set-up to a "big car chase" leads to a huge crash, Bond's captured but is left helpless rather than given an escape.

Truely look LONG and hard at it... You realize the plot structure is very similar to earlier bond films?
Is it now? I can't remember an earlier Bond film which had the main villain die two-thirds of the way through, and with Bond having very little to do with it. Nor can I remember an earlier Bond film which features a final third primarily dedicated to Bond's romantic relationship.

All that Casino Royale did was change the tone, and injected a little vulnerability into Bond to make him more relatable to the audience.
Not really. CASINO ROYALE did change the tone and humanized Bond (turning him into a tragic figure, really), but it also marked a return to a quality of Bond film which hasn't been seen since the 60s, or maybe ever. The action scenes were actually thrilling, the writing was witty (for once), the performances were shockingly excellent, the direction was remarkably beautiful... etc. and so on.

And it also nicely freed us from the need to see little things like a Moneypenny dialogue every film, or have the final scene being Bond in bed with a girl and a quip. It's that exceedingly tight, constrictive formula that was choking the series during the Brosnan era (which are really made from a very strict formula), not the fact that Bond was being, well, James Bond.

And because of the risks it takes have now succeeded, it frees up more room to toy around with in the sequel. People here are acting like they are no big deal - in retrospect, they're not the biggest deals in the world, but how can anyone forget how controversial this film was before its release? "Bond in a hospital? What?! No Q? No Moneypenny? How come?!"

BOND 22 can go almost anywhere and it'll fly. We've said good-bye to the days of world-domination plots and supervillain lairs that explode during the final moments of the film. If BOND 22 doesn't feature a tuxedo, a martini, or the phrase "Bond, James Bond," no-one will bat an eye (and actually, I'll be pretty happy about that). In fact, EON has now opened the door up to the possibility of doing some of Fleming's more interesting story ventures. For example, Fleming's YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, where Bond gets amnesia towards the end and briefly lives an idyllic life as a Japanese fisherman. After CASINO ROYALE, why not?
 
CASINO ROYALE was the best Bond movie since the 60s, and in many ways, pointed to a new route for Bond: to produce James Bond films instead of James Bond movies.

I'm not going to even bother with the rest of your post, because this one comment shows how much of a snob you are. From that one statement, I can infer that you have an elitist attitude towards movies and think your tastes are somehow superior than everyone elses.

And for the record, Goldeneye > Casino Royale. You may call me crazy, but I'll just call you a band wagon-er in return. :oldrazz:
 
I'm not going to even bother with the rest of your post, because this one comment shows how much of a snob you are. From that one statement, I can infer that you have an elitist attitude towards movies and think your tastes are somehow superior than everyone elses.
That's remarkably unfair. I'm a snob because I have an opinion that you disagree with?

All I'm suggesting is that it marked a change of direction for the franchise. Rather than seeking to produce simple entertainment, it was to go for more "artistically credible" films. It's what breathed a new breath of fresh air into the franchise with CASINO ROYALE. That's more of an observation than anything, and is hardly a condemnation of the rest of the franchise.

I'm a huge fan and defender of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE and MOONRAKER, for what it's worth. So don't let it be said that I'm only here to see the installments with "art cred," and then crap on the installments that go for pure blockbuster fun.

And for the record, Goldeneye > Casino Royale.
If that's how you like it.

Personally, I think GOLDENEYE is very drab in visuals (with the same weak sense of location that plagued most of the Brosnan era), has a plodding pace, and a portrayal of James Bond that wants him to be both an untouchable superhero and a human at the same time. I respect that it's one of the more beloved Bond installments, and it has great things about it (Sean Bean and Famke Janssen create some of the most memorable characters in franchise history) but it would rank somewhere in the middle of my list.
 
I'm not going to even bother with the rest of your post, because this one comment shows how much of a snob you are. From that one statement, I can infer that you have an elitist attitude towards movies and think your tastes are somehow superior than everyone elses.

And for the record, Goldeneye > Casino Royale. You may call me crazy, but I'll just call you a band wagon-er in return. :oldrazz:

I think snob is the wrong word for it, it simply a difference in opinion and in the realm of opinions who's to say what is right and what is wrong, he's at the very least given some thought to his opinion something which is a rare feat on the Hype these days. I mean he considers Casino Royale to be revolutionary, is that really snobish? No but it will give you a pessimistic outlook toward the prequals, etc, however that's his prerogative. (Also matt I take film and english courses at college... you want talk about snobs, god...) However like I said, I really think it's kind of short-sighted in the sense that every new bond has been radically different from the last, however Casino Royale was a great movie and a great bond movie.
 
Actually, the Bond of old didn't rely so heavily on high-tech cars and gadgetry. I think that's one of the things that began to ruin Bond in his latest incarnations, especially past Goldeneye. He relied on his wits and his killer's instincts. He was, esentially, a cold, gifted killer.

Kind of a side point, true, but to say that to go back to the excessive gadgetry is going back to Bond's roots is, in my opinion, the wrong way to look at things. This new Bond has high-tech stuff, sure, but how much did he rely on it? That is why this new Bond is so great. It's a return to the Bond we saw in Dr. No and From Russia With Love.

Oh, and the Moneypenny thing...eh, who cares? I can live with or without her. Would be a nice throwback, sure.
 
Casino Royale saved a dieing franchise. Just like Goldeneye did. The difference is Casino was actually a really good MOVIE and not just a good Bond movie. Bond movies have a very standard formula and standard feel. Casino felt different and in a very refreshing way.
It felt like more of a character study than the others. It also had great (real) action sequences, the best fighting since Lazenby (Even Connery's fights were boring and silly 'Judo chop! Judo flip!') And had great suspense and mystery to it, that Bond movies of late have completely lost.

It's not fair to be mad at the people who think Casino Royale is the best. I love Bond and have seen them all numerous times, But I think Casino Royale is the best because it finally pumped some new energetic blood into a stale formulamatic franchise. It's a movie that non-Bond lovers actually liked, because it wasn't silly and macho macho man like the others, with silly names (Octopussy) and constant sexual innuendo. It was good and well executed. An actual movie, not just a Bond movie.
 
I don't think the realm of plausibilities is a neccessity. It is a spy-fantasy. It does not need to be 100 % grounded in reality. As for the self-parody...I disagree to an extent. Comic relief isn't neccessarily self-parody.

It has to remain plausible, even as a fantasy. The best Bond movies had relatively few gadgets, and remained plausible ones. As for comic relief, Llewellyn's Q was mroe than that. But Cleese's Q never managed to go above the parodic element of the character. he was a caricature, not a character.
 
ian mckellen should play Q....

Too famolus. And we don't need the character anymore.

Anyway, I think people sometimes confuses recurring elements to the Bond franchise with essential elements. For some, James Bond should spend his time: 1)introducing himself 2)ordering Martinis 3)flirting with Moneypenny 4)getting gadgets from Q 5)using gadgets from Q.

Sorry, but there is more to him than a series of cliches. Bond getting gadgetry form Q was a recurring element of the franchise, but in no way essential.
 
Casino Royale saved a dieing franchise. Just like Goldeneye did. The difference is Casino was actually a really good MOVIE and not just a good Bond movie. Bond movies have a very standard formula and standard feel. Casino felt different and in a very refreshing way.
It felt like more of a character study than the others. It also had great (real) action sequences, the best fighting since Lazenby (Even Connery's fights were boring and silly 'Judo chop! Judo flip!') And had great suspense and mystery to it, that Bond movies of late have completely lost.

It's not fair to be mad at the people who think Casino Royale is the best. I love Bond and have seen them all numerous times, But I think Casino Royale is the best because it finally pumped some new energetic blood into a stale formulamatic franchise. It's a movie that non-Bond lovers actually liked, because it wasn't silly and macho macho man like the others, with silly names (Octopussy) and constant sexual innuendo. It was good and well executed. An actual movie, not just a Bond movie.

See this is what bugs me, when fans make **** up... NEWSFLASH THE BOND FRANCHISE WASN'T DYING!

Die Another DAy BO:
Domestic: $160,942,139
OVerseas: $271,028,977
Overall: $431,971,116

Casino Royale BO:
Domestic: $167,445,960
Overseas: $426,793,106
Overall: $594,239,066

I don't know... 431 Mil worldwide is ****in amazing for a 20-Odd sequel... However, it did bring in more buesiness but it didn't revive it... I love when fans blatantly make **** up like Pirates 3 is failure for making 300 mil instead of 400 mil.
 
In terms of money? Sure. Bond was doing just fine.

In terms of artistry, the Bond was bankrupt.

And in terms of intelligence, it was not looking nice either. Because of DAD, the Bond franchise was the subject of ridicule and nobody was taking it seriously anymore.
 
See this is what bugs me, when fans make **** up... NEWSFLASH THE BOND FRANCHISE WASN'T DYING!

Die Another DAy BO:
Domestic: $160,942,139
OVerseas: $271,028,977
Overall: $431,971,116

Casino Royale BO:
Domestic: $167,445,960
Overseas: $426,793,106
Overall: $594,239,066

I don't know... 431 Mil worldwide is ****in amazing for a 20-Odd sequel... However, it did bring in more buesiness but it didn't revive it... I love when fans blatantly make **** up like Pirates 3 is failure for making 300 mil instead of 400 mil.


Just because a movie does good in the box office (Transformers because the idiots who loved it go to see it 8 times) Doesn't mean it is a good movie. Bond movies were dying in terms of quality. Like seriously dying, having heart failure, on life support. The movies themselves were getting stale. No one ever mentioned money.

Crappy remakes of good movies make alot of money in the box office and get sequels. SO what? They are still crappy movies.
 
The same way people now turn their noses up at Burton's Batman. I enjoyed Batman Begins and Batman 89 equally. Different styles but both solidly good movies. People act like 89 wasn't a "Batman movie" it was a Burton film. WTF? Every artist brings something to something they create.


Casino Royale was a damn good film. And so was Brosnan's GoldenEye and Connery before him. All the films kept the character of James Bond intact(whether or not the actor was liked) People see the newest thing and act like what came before wasn't just as cool or maybe better. That's how society is today i guess.:csad: That's why we buy a new phone with new features (we probably barely use), but the basic function remains.
 

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