Age of Ultron Whedon battles with Marvel

[Tony Stark]

Ultron was way more of standard Whedon villain than Loki. I mean Ultron could easily be placed in a Buffy or Angel episode and wouldn't be the least bit out of place. He could be Glory's robot boyfriend or something.

I saw a ton of Whedon in Age of Ultron. He may have had to compromise like all directors but Age of Ultron was clearly has movie at the end of the day.

I could totally see that.

 

[drod1985]

and spending the whole movie setting up Civl War, only to return things to the status quo by the end of the film...

Besides Tony and Steve arguing, how did this set up Civil War? Cause Tony and Steve argued in TA as well. They're just very different personalities with very different outlooks on life and how to protect it. There will almost always be tension between the two of them.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Sorry I don't agree that this was more Whedon's movie, watch AOU and then watch Serenity, sure there is the odd similarity like the humour. But in Serenity you don't have people making jokes and quips seconds after a main character dies. But it IS something that is in many MCU movies.

Personality wise Ultron was Whedon, but not a typical Whedon bad guy, look at The Operative, he was dark, serious and a big, big threat to the crew. Ultron was typical MCU movie villain, underdeveloped, doesn't come across as a threat to the heroes and doesn't do anything particularly dark beyond the stand MCU 'wants to destroy the world/universe' motivation. The action was much more brutal in Serenity as well as characters getting really serious moments even when no one had died. Also the upbeat ending despite what had gone on before is nothing like Serenity either.

There is more but I just can't think of them at the moment. There were a lot of many MCU staples in the movie and then also having to set up the next few movies and introduce characters that Marvel demanded.

I have seen everything Whedon has ever made. Ultron was WAY more a Whedon villain than Loki. They quipped all the time in Buffy after tragedy. Sure, not when Joyce died or at certain points, but they did VERY often. Did this movie feel MCU? Yes, but Whedon's fingerprints were all over it. Even more so than the first film. He got to build this one from the ground up, unlike with The Avengers, and it shows.

 

[Pond]

I have seen everything Whedon has ever made. Ultron was WAY more a Whedon villain than Loki. They quipped all the time in Buffy after tragedy. Sure, not when Joyce died or at certain points, but they did VERY often. Did this movie feel MCU? Yes, but Whedon's fingerprints were all over it. Even more so than the first film. He got to build this one from the ground up, unlike with The Avengers, and it shows.

Remember the scene where they are lamenting Willows death when they think she is no more in Doppelgangland? t:

Xander: She was better than me.
Giles: Much, much better.

 

[Bayne]

Sorry I don't agree that this was more Whedon's movie, watch AOU and then watch Serenity, sure there is the odd similarity like the humour. But in Serenity you don't have people making jokes and quips seconds after a main character dies. But it IS something that is in many MCU movies.

Personality wise Ultron was Whedon, but not a typical Whedon bad guy, look at The Operative, he was dark, serious and a big, big threat to the crew. Ultron was typical MCU movie villain, underdeveloped, doesn't come across as a threat to the heroes and doesn't do anything particularly dark beyond the stand MCU 'wants to destroy the world/universe' motivation. The action was much more brutal in Serenity as well as characters getting really serious moments even when no one had died. Also the upbeat ending despite what had gone on before is nothing like Serenity either.

There is more but I just can't think of them at the moment. There were a lot of many MCU staples in the movie and then also having to set up the next few movies and introduce characters that Marvel demanded.

Um, Whedon's done a lot more than Serenity. Check out the villains in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly and Dr. Horrible. Serenity and Dollhouse were unusually serious compared to most of his work. Really, Whedon's style is very close to the typical MCU style you're talking about, only he's unusually gifted with making strong dialogue and he has a penchant for strong relationships taking dark turns. But he still makes jokes about them.

 

[Flint Marko]

I have seen everything Whedon has ever made. Ultron was WAY more a Whedon villain than Loki. They quipped all the time in Buffy after tragedy. Sure, not when Joyce died or at certain points, but they did VERY often. Did this movie feel MCU? Yes, but Whedon's fingerprints were all over it. Even more so than the first film. He got to build this one from the ground up, unlike with The Avengers, and it shows.

Agreed. Whedon has even said as much, he's referred to this movie as his "baby" and if it came down to it, he'd only change about 2 minutes of the final product.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Besides Tony and Steve arguing, how did this set up Civil War? Cause Tony and Steve argued in TA as well. They're just very different personalities with very different outlooks on life and how to protect it. There will almost always be tension between the two of them.

Tony creating a genocidal robot, Hulk going on a rampage in a major city. All the bad things that happened were the Avengers fault. Cap and Tony were made at each other. All this should have led directly into Civl War, but instead Whedon screwed it up.

 

[drod1985]

All of that can be isolated just to the AOU story. The fact that Civil War may piggy back off of it is irrelevant, but I hope it does.

 

[Lorus]

Sorry I don't agree that this was more Whedon's movie, watch AOU and then watch Serenity, sure there is the odd similarity like the humour. But in Serenity you don't have people making jokes and quips seconds after a main character dies. But it IS something that is in many MCU movies.

Personality wise Ultron was Whedon, but not a typical Whedon bad guy, look at The Operative, he was dark, serious and a big, big threat to the crew. Ultron was typical MCU movie villain, underdeveloped, doesn't come across as a threat to the heroes and doesn't do anything particularly dark beyond the stand MCU 'wants to destroy the world/universe' motivation. The action was much more brutal in Serenity as well as characters getting really serious moments even when no one had died. Also the upbeat ending despite what had gone on before is nothing like Serenity either.

There is more but I just can't think of them at the moment. There were a lot of many MCU staples in the movie and then also having to set up the next few movies and introduce characters that Marvel demanded.

I think your major sticking point is that AOU is not Serenity. By trying to judge AOU based on direct tonal comparisons to Serenity, you’re missing the fact that Whedon was making a different film altogether which had different aims. I assume you’re talking about the specific oppressive feeling of hopelessness which he skirts with during the climax of that film. AOU doesn’t replicate that feeling because the intent is different. With Serenity, there was reasonable doubt that the characters could die, so Whedon played on it for dramatic effect. The same tricks would appear cheap in the MCU, when every character is signed on for a million more films. With AOU, the action is built around problems and solutions, with the excitement coming from how the characters help each other to achieve said solutions. Different intent for different films.


I think you’ll enjoy the film more if you approach it on its own terms. Although, in some cases, I think you’re remembering wrong. Nobody in AOU makes light of Quicksilver’s death, and Serenity also ended in a reasonably upbeat way. It’s extremely possible that some executive messed with the film and that its development was hindered in some way, but the content is pretty unmistakably Whedon.

 

[InJustice]

To be fair, nobody makes much of Quicksilver's death. Only Hawkeye has a reaction to it (and even pays respect to him through naming his newborn Nathaniel Pietro), the rest of the Avengers seem like they couldn't care less.

 

[Lorus]

To be fair, nobody makes much of Quicksilver's death. Only Hawkeye has a reaction to it (and even pays respect to him through naming his newborn Nathaniel Pietro), the rest of the Avengers seem like they couldn't care less.

Both Cap and Hawkeye are shown being devastated about the death. Wanda is so distraught that she tears apart a handful of drones and yanks Ultron's heart out, even though it means her own death. That means everybody who had any sort of important interaction with Quicksilver was demonstrated to be upset. There would ultimately have been little point in showing Thor or Black Widow's reaction as they never spoke to Pietro.

 

[Steamteck]

Both Cap and Hawkeye are shown being devastated about the death. Wanda is so distraught that she tears apart a handful of drones and yanks Ultron's heart out, even though it means her own death. That means everybody who had any sort of important interaction with Quicksilver was demonstrated to be upset. There would ultimately have been little point in showing Thor or Black Widow's reaction as they never spoke to Pietro.

Thanks, getting really tired of the "couldn't have cared less" meme being thrown around without thinking it through.

 

[InJustice]

Both Cap and Hawkeye are shown being devastated about the death. Wanda is so distraught that she tears apart a handful of drones and yanks Ultron's heart out, even though it means her own death. That means everybody who had any sort of important interaction with Quicksilver was demonstrated to be upset. There would ultimately have been little point in showing Thor or Black Widow's reaction as they never spoke to Pietro.

Wanda was a given considering she is his sibling, but when was Cap ever "devastated"? Sure he reacts in a "****, we have a dead soldier" way, but after the events of Sokovia, he doesn't even at least leave something in memory of Quicksilver's first run as an Avenger, something that would feel like a very Steve Roger thing to do. Instead, it feels like he shrugged off his death rather easily.

At least Barton paid his respect, that's why he comes off as the only non-related Avenger to care about what happened to him.

 

[TalismanRing]

Why would they care deeply about Pietro, they barely knew him. Frankly if he and his sister hadn't paired up with Ultron they could have brought him down much sooner with far less destruction and death. The biggest emotional reactions should come from Wanda and Hawkeye who he died saving.

Concerning the aftermath the issue I have is with Wanda becoming an Avenger. There's SW messing with everyone's minds, ramping up Tony's paranoia which leads to Ultron and causing the Hulk to rampage through a city. Sure, she does a 180 but how do they work with her so soon after and so easily?

Regardless, AOU is all Whedon. He even said that the movie was all him, more than than any other so far. As for humor after darkness that's Whedon's credo:

“Make it dark, make it grim, make it tough, but then, for the love of God, tell a joke.”

 

[hafizbat]

Age of Ultron is the one MCU movie where I wish Marvel actually did step in more. The movie's biggest problems were because Whedon indulged himself too much.

 

[Lorus]

Age of Ultron is the one MCU movie where I wish Marvel actually did step in more. The movie's biggest problems were because Whedon indulged himself too much.

Where do you think there was too much indulgence, if I may ask? I'm inclined to think that the biggest problems come from cutting out scenes that expand upon certain aspects of the film, rather than needless indulgence.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Um, Whedon's done a lot more than Serenity. Check out the villains in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly and Dr. Horrible. Serenity and Dollhouse were unusually serious compared to most of his work. Really, Whedon's style is very close to the typical MCU style you're talking about, only he's unusually gifted with making strong dialogue and he has a penchant for strong relationships taking dark turns. But he still makes jokes about them.

Firefly? I don't remember the villains making jokes in that either or jokes coming in serious moments either. Did the Hands Of Blue guys make jokes? Did the Reavers? Niska didn't make many quips. Jubal Early was funny but only because of how crazy he was, Badger cracked the odd joke but wasn't a full on bad guy to the crew as they worked for him plenty. I don't remember any others, Saffron/Yolanda wasn't really a villain either.

I admit I never consistently watched Buffy or Angel. Watched a bit of Dollhouse though.

 

[lukebrodyg]

Age of Ultron is the one MCU movie where I wish Marvel actually did step in more. The movie's biggest problems were because Whedon indulged himself too much.

I completely agree.

 

[hafizbat]

Where do you think there was too much indulgence, if I may ask? I'm inclined to think that the biggest problems come from cutting out scenes that expand upon certain aspects of the film, rather than needless indulgence.

I think some of Whedon's story choices definitely hurt the movie. Namely the Nat/Bruce romance and Hawkeye's family. They are cute ideas, sure, but they weren't needed or even wanted by anyone, and the time spent on them came at the great cost of under-developing Ultron and the Twins.

On top of that, he went way overboard with the one-liners, which made them lose their punch and kind of cheapened things.

Age of Ultron could have been brilliant, but it fell short because Whedon forced his personal preferences into the movie and the final product was not focused and sharp as a result. Less would have been more.

 

[warhorse78]

I think some of Whedon's story choices definitely hurt the movie. Namely the Nat/Bruce romance and Hawkeye's family. They are cute ideas, sure, but they weren't needed or even wanted by anyone, and the time spent on them came at the great cost of under-developing Ultron and the Twins.

On top of that, he went way overboard with the one-liners, which made them lose their punch and kind of cheapened things.

Age of Ultron could have been brilliant, but it fell short because Whedon forced his personal preferences into the movie and the final product was not focused and sharp as a result. Less would have been more.

Yep, agree with this.

Spoiler

Natasha/Banner thing
HawkEye farm
QuickSilver getting killed off, but yet no civilian deaths.
Ultron sucked
The one liners, nothing taken seriously
Creating this elaborate adventure for Thor when it would have made more sense for him to just stay with the team and meditate.(Just seemed to me another reason to shoehorn Erik)
Fury showing up with helicarrier
The joke with Cap swearing
The movie was pretty much a cut and paste from the first movie in the grand scheme of things.

 

[TheVileOne]

The joke about Cap saying language was funny the first time. Then they proceeded to murder the joke over the course of two hours.

I still have no idea why Fury was in the movie other than to meet contractual demands.

 

[hafizbat]

I loved the "language" running gag, and I also thought it was appropriate that Fury would be there.

There were too many jokes in the finale, which was a problem I had with IM3 as well.

 

[Steelsheen]

how the heck did this thread turn into the Whedon h8ters thread?

 

[Bayne]

Firefly? I don't remember the villains making jokes in that either or jokes coming in serious moments either. Did the Hands Of Blue guys make jokes? Did the Reavers? Niska didn't make many quips. Jubal Early was funny but only because of how crazy he was, Badger cracked the odd joke but wasn't a full on bad guy to the crew as they worked for him plenty. I don't remember any others, Saffron/Yolanda wasn't really a villain either.

I admit I never consistently watched Buffy or Angel. Watched a bit of Dollhouse though.

The hands of Blue guys and the reavers never really said much at all so they don't really count. Niska did made jokes, though.

'My Wife's nephew... Tonight I am getting earful." Is the one that sticks in my mind, but I recall him making fun of Mal and Wash both during 'War Stories' as well.

The Alliance commander in the episode about the guy who turned himself into a Reaver was extremely sarcastic in a professional kind of way.

Patience made jokes. Badger made jokes. I think Marco made a joke in his one tiny appearance. Rance Burgess made jokes, although they weren't actually funny. They were more for his ahole followers than for the audience. I have vague impressions of funny lines from Womack and that jerk client of Inara's on Persephone, but I'd have to rewatch to see if they were ever really joking. Also, Saffron really definitely was a villain. They worked with her once because they had a plan in place to play her, but in her first episode she literally tried to kill them all.

It has to be taken into account, of course, that the show only lasted for half a season and there were several episodes with repeat villains and a few episodes with almost no villain at all.

Firefly wasn't the funniest thing Whedon's ever done, but it certainly did not shy away from letting villains make jokes.

As for jokes in serious moments... they were all over Firefly. Unless you have a very different definition of serious moments than I do.

 

[MadVillainy]

I loved the "language" running gag, and I also thought it was appropriate that Fury would be there.

There were too many jokes in the finale, which was a problem I had with IM3 as well.

I feel that was a problem with all the phase 2 films other than Winter Soldier.