When did Batman start becoming 'difficult'?

[baerrtt]

Though the last 2 years have seen attempts to take the character back to his heroic roots when, in your opinion, was the character first specifically depicted as the difficult sleuth who barely got on with/or trusted any of his fellow heroes to the point where he seemed to manipulate his colleagues for his own ends?

Name the issue/storyline where you feel definitively that the Super Friends/Brave and the Bold concept was abandoned? For me personally it pre-Crisis BATMAN AND THE OUTSIDERS #1.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

In the early 80s (before Miller!) people like Mike W. Barr started to seperate Batman from the "superpowered" superheroes, although Batman didn't behave like you described at all. He was still friends with Superman, but they admitted that both lived in different worlds. The Outsiders were really strange in this context, okay he is on his own in his world but then he assembles a superpowered team (well, those guys weren't really "outsiders" anyway).

The last World's Finest issue showed the first "Batdickery" I've ever seen. The way Batman was talking down to Superman felt really forced, like "Let's put in some controversy and pave the way for the post-Crisis relationship".

After the crisis Batman was part of the new "Justice League International" so not. Writers like Collins, DeMatteis and Barr weren't really beating the "grim n grity" drums, although people like Starlin did it. Wagner/Grant wrote a more "pulpish" and "street level" Batman, although Batman still behaven quite likeable (Grant never liked "The Dark Knight Returns", I really want to know which other writers felt like that, too).

Bottom line: It really depended on the writer. What was a corner stone: Almost hostility between Batman and Superman. After "Zero Hour" however, Batman started to become the paranoid batgod who made plans to stop the other superheroes for fun.

 

[baerrtt]

In the early 80s (before Miller!) people like Mike W. Barr started to seperate Batman from the "superpowered" superheroes, although Batman didn't behave like you described at all. He was still friends with Superman, but they admitted that both lived in different worlds. The Outsiders were really strange in this context, okay he is on his own in his world but then he assembles a superpowered team (well, those guys weren't really "outsiders" anyway).

The last World's Finest issue showed the first "Batdickery" I've ever seen. The way Batman was talking down to Superman felt really forced, like "Let's put in some controversy and pave the way for the post-Crisis relationship".

After the crisis Batman was part of the new "Justice League International" so not. Writers like Collins, DeMatteis and Barr weren't really beating the "grim n grity" drums, although people like Starlin did it. Wagner/Grant wrote a more "pulpish" and "street level" Batman, although Batman still behaven quite likeable (Grant never liked "The Dark Knight Returns", I really want to know which other writers felt like that, too).

Bottom line: It really depended on the writer. What was a corner stone: Almost hostility between Batman and Superman. After "Zero Hour" however, Batman started to become the paranoid batgod who made plans to stop the other superheroes for fun.

The Outsiders debut issue does it for me because, in accordance to his relationship with other heroes in the years to come here we have a Batman who will do things his way and arrogantly assumes his colleagues will fall into line (the meeting with the Justice League on the satellite which goes pear shaped).

In JLI despite the humour Giffen did write Batman as someone who, at times, got very authoratative with his colleagues much to the point that there was an issue where J'onn shouted him down. My question was centered on the fact that at some point despite still working with other heroes Batman was written as not being completely friendly to the others.

 

[CaptainClown]

honestly I really like the "difficult" Batman. He does have that mentality "these people with all these powers and they hardly make a difference" It is like a type of envy he has for them. It makes him more human and empathetic.

 

[Saint]

I like the "difficult" Batman, as well. It suits him, and it fits his circumstances. There's a solid thematic reason as to why Batman is controlling, why he doesn't trust the superpowered set, and why he separates himself from them. Batman represents an athiestic (or at least humanist) perspective on life, where Superman and other superpowered folk represent a theistic perspective. I've said this in the past: Superman, sent from the skies to save us; Wonder Woman, made by the Gods themselves to bring us peace--they are nearly perfect in terms of morality, their power is a gift, and they use it to save the rest of us. They represent the idea that God will always be there to catch us when we fall, and, less mystically, the idea that mankind is fundamentally good.

Batman is different: the perspective he communicates is that of an atheist, humanist, and a realist: God isn't going to save us, people aren't fundamentally good (or bad), so we can't count on some ideal of righteousness to win the day unless we make it happen. The responsibility is ours to make the world work the way it's supposed to. Batman sees superpeople as a delegation of responsibility; human beings not wanting to deal with having to make the world better, so they let the Supermen do it. In Batman's mind, the ultimate responsibility to decide what is right and enforce it is in the hands of mankind, so he is fundamentally opposed to superheroes making decisions for anyone else.

More practically (as opposed to thematics I've been discussing), Batman is a control freak for a reason. It's integral to his character. I don't like it when writers say he feels guilty for not being able to save his parents. That's ridiculous. The truth is that he knows that the situation was beyond his control, and that's what he hates. Not that he could have done something to save them and didn't, but that there was nothing he could do. Everything in that moment was beyond his control, and he has resolved to never be out of control again.

So, naturally, he becomes a control freak. He plans and re-plans for everything. Sometimes that means manipulating people, sometimes it means planning against them just in case. That's Batman's approach to everything: just in case.

 

[terry78]

Which is why he was the only one cool with having The Question assist him on JLU. Batman is a paranoid mother****er, but usually it's founded. Everyone knows the irony of the only guy on the team without god-like abilities being the only one to see through the ******** when it's crunch time.

 

[Gilpesh]

Difficult Batman makes sense.

Bruce saw his parents murdered right in front of him at a young age. That most likely gave him a very bad impression of the rest of humanity... there's the paranoia/trust issues. Add super powers and I doubt his opinion on people is going to change much.

 

[baerrtt]

Difficult Batman makes sense.

Bruce saw his parents murdered right in front of him at a young age. That most likely gave him a very bad impression of the rest of humanity... there's the paranoia/trust issues. Add super powers and I doubt his opinion on people is going to change much.

To be fair Dick Grayson saw his parents killed right in front of him as a child as well and they've never reinterpreted Grayson as a 'dark' character as a result of that.

 

[CaptainClown]

I think dick grayson is sane though, Bruce Wayne is insane well thats how I like to see it.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

I think dick grayson is sane though, Bruce Wayne is insane well thats how I like to see it.

What makes him "insane"?

 

[Gilpesh]

To be fair Dick Grayson saw his parents killed right in front of him as a child as well and they've never reinterpreted Grayson as a 'dark' character as a result of that.

Dick Grayson has had Bruce to reign him in and raise him as a more functional member of society.

 

[CaptainClown]

What makes him "insane"?

he thinks he can stop crime and can't let go of the past. Rather then doing what a normal person does when they grieve he finds himself the solution to rid Gotham of crime. Grayson is sane and only does what he does because of a little push by Batman

 

[TruerToTheCore]

he thinks he can stop crime and can't let go of the past. Rather then doing what a normal person does when they grieve he finds himself the solution to rid Gotham of crime. Grayson is sane and only does what he does because of a little push by Batman

Is Batman crazy or isn't he?

In the fictional world in which Batman lives, no, he's not crazy at all. If Batman were to exist in the real world, however, yes, he'd be crazy ... and very soon he'd be either institutionalized or dead.

http://normforum.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/viewtopic.php?t=532&start=60

 

[Jack O Lantern]

It's not somuch that he is diffcult that's the problem, it's that he is always right, always one step ahead, when he faces other hero's he always wins. And that kind of bores me.

 

[Majic Walrus]

"Difficult" Batman started when the Comics Code Authority stopped being so strict and when when comic book stories started to become more serious (again). It was the way Batman always was supposed to be. When Batman was initially depicted it was a world with violence and crime and where Batman killed because it sold books.

The Silver Age Batman that had Batman working with the Superfriends and being an officially sanctioned Gotham PD informer that carried a special platinum Bat-Badge to make arrests. And this was the same Batman as forever the way he was meant to be. It came around when the CCA was very strict and the comics were only being bought by children because that's what sold books.

Now Batman is the Ghoul, etc, etc. It's the way Batman was always supposed to be, because that's what sells books.

Personally I'm a big fan of the Difficult Batman

 

[CaptainClown]

ya I like to see the controlling paranoid batman like tower of babel.

 

[baerrtt]

Dick Grayson has had Bruce to reign him in and raise him as a more functional member of society.

Bruce had Alfred similarly though I see the point. Bruce ironically ensured that Dick could move on with his life whilst still pursuing a life of crime fighting whist Alfred, for all his attempts, never quite could with Bruce.

 

[Kargo Warrior]

I like the "difficult" Batman, as well. It suits him, and it fits his circumstances. There's a solid thematic reason as to why Batman is controlling, why he doesn't trust the superpowered set, and why he separates himself from them. Batman represents an athiestic (or at least humanist) perspective on life, where Superman and other superpowered folk represent a theistic perspective. I've said this in the past: Superman, sent from the skies to save us; Wonder Woman, made by the Gods themselves to bring us peace--they are nearly perfect in terms of morality, their power is a gift, and they use it to save the rest of us. They represent the idea that God will always be there to catch us when we fall, and, less mystically, the idea that mankind is fundamentally good.

Batman is different: the perspective he communicates is that of an atheist, humanist, and a realist: God isn't going to save us, people aren't fundamentally good (or bad), so we can't count on some ideal of righteousness to win the day unless we make it happen. The responsibility is ours to make the world work the way it's supposed to. Batman sees superpeople as a delegation of responsibility; human beings not wanting to deal with having to make the world better, so they let the Supermen do it. In Batman's mind, the ultimate responsibility to decide what is right and enforce it is in the hands of mankind, so he is fundamentally opposed to superheroes making decisions for anyone else.

More practically (as opposed to thematics I've been discussing), Batman is a control freak for a reason. It's integral to his character. I don't like it when writers say he feels guilty for not being able to save his parents. That's ridiculous. The truth is that he knows that the situation was beyond his control, and that's what he hates. Not that he could have done something to save them and didn't, but that there was nothing he could do. Everything in that moment was beyond his control, and he has resolved to never be out of control again.

So, naturally, he becomes a control freak. He plans and re-plans for everything. Sometimes that means manipulating people, sometimes it means planning against them just in case. That's Batman's approach to everything: just in case.

Excellent post

 

[Finlandman]

He thinks he can stop crime and can't let go of the past. Rather then doing what a normal person does when they grieve he finds himself the solution to rid Gotham of crime. Grayson is sane and only does what he does because of a little push by Batman

What's insane about that. He does it every night. ( That was a quote from awesome Batman Black & White Vol. 2.)

 

[Gilpesh]

Bruce had Alfred similarly though I see the point. Bruce ironically ensured that Dick could move on with his life whilst still pursuing a life of crime fighting whist Alfred, for all his attempts, never quite could with Bruce.

Yeah, it's all about that young Bruce didn't really listen to Alfred because Alfred didn't have to go through that... unless there was another crisis and now Alfred's parents were killed in front of him.

 

[The Batman]

"Difficult" Batman is interesting when talking about "JLU" Batman, or Grant Morrison's JLA Batman or "JLI" Batman...otherwise its usually annoying, and usually a tool by hack writers to try and seperate batman from everyone else