Which Batman Left a Larger Body Count?

Hang on a sec, I think I've explained my reservations about the use of the word murder . If Batman is fired upon by someone who is killed by the ricochet then that cannot be murder , in fact it's probably not even homicide - the problem is with causation. To have a homicide one person has to cause the death of another - now if Batman purposely deflected bullets and rockets back at the people firing them, then that would be homicide, but possibly not culpable homicide ( so not murder or manslaughter, due to self defense).
In those panels, the deflection Of the bullets and explosives is not on purpose - so while Batman is part of the chain of causation, I would think that the substantial cause of injury/death would be them firing in the first place ( if not the proximate cause).
Like you said, they killed themselves.

The way I see it, Batman kicking a guy into another guy who's just pulled the pin on a grenade, is different. Here Batman actually causes their deaths - although it's still probably not murder or manslaughter, as self defense would almost certainly apply.

Again, that's just my view - but in neither of those scenarios do I consider Batman a murderer. Him strafing the trucks from the Batplane ( in B v S) is probably self defense ( they fired first) but the kills during the Batmobile Chase are a different story.

Arguably the bombing of Axis chemicals is murder ( if Batman could reasonably foresee that goons inside would be killed.) Batman cannot argue self-defense, as he's not even in the Batmobile, so his life is not in danger.

Again, just my view. Cheers.

I mean Batman just kicked one guy onto another. It is not technically his fault is it that the criminal took out the grenade and then had to idiotically crawl and try to cover the grenade. The criminal could have just got away from it, he had the chance. I dont necesarrily see it as Batman killing people. More as, he was defending himself and the idiots managed to get themselves killed. As Batman would say "They do each other a lot of damage"..

Speaking of incidentally, I was rewatching that particular scene from TDKR animated movie, and they certainly took some liberties here. And if people apply the same standards to which they applied to bvs, he certainly did kill people here. Like those people on the top of the batmobile he electrocutes and the guy he shoots who has the grenade in his hand.
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Arguably the bombing of Axis chemicals is murder ( if Batman could reasonably foresee that goons inside would be killed.) Batman cannot argue self-defense, as he's not even in the Batmobile, so his life is not in danger.

Again, just my view. Cheers.

Legally, the Axis Chemicals bombing would be murder, but ethically, I think he's in the clear. The place was being used as a chemical weapons factory by a mass murdering terrorist. Trying to take the place intact would require a small army, in chemical protection gear, and probably involving killing most of the mooks defending the place anyway ( and taking non-zero casualties in the process, they were numerous and well armed ). The government would be entirely in the clear if they did a drone strike to just blow the place up, and that's essentially what Batman himself did. There's the "do you have the rightful authority to do this?" issue, but I don't think that is an infinite obstacle.
 
Legally, the Axis Chemicals bombing would be murder, but ethically, I think he's in the clear. The place was being used as a chemical weapons factory by a mass murdering terrorist. Trying to take the place intact would require a small army, in chemical protection gear, and probably involving killing most of the mooks defending the place anyway ( and taking non-zero casualties in the process, they were numerous and well armed ). The government would be entirely in the clear if they did a drone strike to just blow the place up, and that's essentially what Batman himself did. There's the "do you have the rightful authority to do this?" issue, but I don't think that is an infinite obstacle.

Good point, you hit the nail on the head , with respect to the distinction between what's legal and what's moral. Is he legally justified ? no way. But morally, possibly. Interesting, that on that basis a jury could still absolve him - as juries can and do disregard the law ( but a tribunal, bound to follow the law could not - thank God for juries !)

Cheers.
 
Arguably the bombing of Axis chemicals is murder ( if Batman could reasonably foresee that goons inside would be killed.) Batman cannot argue self-defense, as he's not even in the Batmobile, so his life is not in danger.

The Joker and his men were plotting to poison the people of Gotham City in the streets, so Batman tried blowing them up before the parade ever happened. There was no indication that he wasn't in the Batmobile. The Joker was already gone, so he went and got the Batwing.
 
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The Joker and his men were plotting to poison the people of Gotham City in the streets, so Batman tried blowing them up before the parade ever happened. There was no indication that he wasn't in the Batmobile. The Joker was already gone, so he went and got the Batwing.

Okay, let's explore that a bit.

First, while I express some views on how things would play out in a legal sense - that's not me trying to definitively state what the law would do - only a court can do that. I'm not a judge. Just saying.

Second. The big problem that Batman has is that as a civilian he's not lawfully allowed to kill other people - except under certain circumstances, and those have to be proven in a court. I see where you're coming from, in terms of Batman acting to protect Gotham, rather than himself - and you've got a point.

I suppose if you treated the Joker not as a criminal but as a domestic terrorist, preparing for an attack against Gotham, and Batman was a police officer, soldier or other government agent - then a preemptive strike against Axis Chemicals would probably be okay (he might even get a medal).

So, keeping in mind that Batman is a civilian - in terms of blowing up Axis chemicals to prevent the poisoning of Gotham, Batman has to rely on self-defence, because civilians generally aren't authorised to use force like that (the main exception being in time of war).

What Batman'd be arguing is self-defence/defence of another and his argument would go something like " I killed those goons to protect the citizens of Gotham from being poisoned by them" the question for the Court would be about evidence. Without pretty solid evidence that that was the case, he'd be in serious trouble. I mean, that kind of argument would be a tough one even for the actual police to rely on, without a lot of evidence. How much evidence did he have ahead of time ? Well we're not 100% certain from the movie - but let's say he probably had a fair bit, although a lot of that he's blown to bits.

So he's got evidence of the plan to poison Gotham. Here's the other thing about self-defence. Usually, to successfully say you were acting in self-defence and have a court excuse you from using force, injuring or killing a purported attacker you need 2 things:


[*]- a belief that you or someone else was in immediate danger
[*]- under the circumstances of that belief you only used reasonable force.


Different courts weigh up the degree of reasonable force differently (e.g. if you believe someone is going to punch you, then chopping off their head probably isn't going to be considered reasonable force). In this case, if the thugs are going to poison all of Gotham, then blowing them up might actually be reasonable force......unless another alternative existed (as in giving them a ten second warning to get out of Axis Chemicals before the explosion ). Who knows ?

For me, the problem is more about the immediate danger requirement - sure he believes that the Joker's going to poison Gotham but how immediate is the threat ?

There are different views on how imminent or immediate the danger has to be, in order to succeed with self-defence as a defence.
It is true that sometimes a court (or a jury) will accept that if you are confronted by an attacker, and you hit them first because you believe they are going to attack you. But that's sometimes. Again you need pretty solid evidence to back that up.

Sometimes that immediate danger requirement can be stretched. Like if the Joker was about to launch a poison gas missile (from Axis chemicals) and Bats blew up Axis Chemicals to stop him....that's pretty imminent. Again it would be much easier for a police officer to make such an argument (think of every police officer who's shot an offender who was threatening him/her with a weapon) - because remember, as a vigilante Batman's already operating outside the law.

In terms of immediacy, generally the courts take a very short-term view.

In a case down here in 1990, a woman who suffered regularly from domestic abuse killed her husband in his sleep, and asserted self-defence. He had threatened to kill her and her sister before getting drunk and going to bed. At trial, the judge decided that there was no way she was in immediate danger, so killing him can't have been reasonable force (so her self-defence defence failed and she went to prison) . This was upheld on Appeal - but there's been a lot of work on domestic violence since then, and I'm not sure it would have been decided the same way today. However, what it does show is just how immediate some judges expect the danger to be - the law is crazy sometimes.

So going back to Axis Chemicals. Well, maybe a court (or jury) might accept that Batman believed the citizens were in danger - but again would the danger be immediate enough at that stage ? Who knows ? Of course, the goons who died at Axis Chemicals weren't going to attack the city immediately, because as you say, the Joker was already gone (already in his helicopter - from which he taunts Batman) they then have to get the balloons into the city and deploy them. I'm not so sure the threat would be immediate enough, but that's just me.

Of course, this raises another question. When Batman strafes (and kills the Joker's goons) from the Batwing, he's already removed the poison balloons - and the goons are firing over the crowd's heads, not into the crowd. It looks like Bats might have a tough time justifying opening fire there too - because the level of immediate danger is lower.

Check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udvhwg_sd1k

Now, I'm also not saying that Batman's actions aren't morally justified, just that if he had to defend them in court, he'd have a tough time (although who knows what a jury will do ? A jury could find that he was totally justified). What I'm saying is that there's a big difference between moral and legal justifications.


Finally, don't get me wrong I love Batman '89 and I think blowing up Axis chemicals works within the story (even with a Batman who supposedly doesn't try to kill people). What interests me is the legality of comic book movies, and how real world law would apply - thank goodness it doesn't, because then the stories would probably become a lot more boring and less action-packed. But, it still interests me.

Oh PS-

As for Batman not being in the Batmobile - I think there's a very good indication that Batman wasn't in the Batmobile when he bombed Axis- check out the clip below. After blowing up the plant the Batmobile drives out and right up to Batman who stops it with his remote control (something he demonstrated he could do, earlier in the film). Have a look from about 1:00 onwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPudZd3oI4

Cheers.
 
Nobody would believe he needed to blow the place up to stop Joker from using the poison. The factory itself was not a device to unleash poison gas on the entire city. Nor did he need to blow it up to stop the place from being used to manufacture more. All he had to do was to tip off the law to raid the place and that would be sorted. Or he could have gone in and taken out the thugs himself. He's Batman. If he can't handle some trigger happy thugs without blowing them all up then he's not a proper Batman.
 
Batfleck. It implied that the brand was getting his captures shanked in the pokey.
 
As for Batman not being in the Batmobile - I think there's a very good indication that Batman wasn't in the Batmobile when he bombed Axis- check out the clip below. After blowing up the plant the Batmobile drives out and right up to Batman who stops it with his remote control (something he demonstrated he could do, earlier in the film). Have a look from about 1:00 onwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPudZd3oI4

Cheers.

Huh. I haven't seen it too recently, and that must have somehow slipped my mind.

As for the legality, maybe it would be against the law in real life, although I would say that's a failing of the law then. Yes, vigilantism is considered unacceptable in general, and for good reason, but I feel like that goes out the window in a scenario where the proper authorities simply aren't capable of handling a serious threat that the vigilante is, especially when that threat could destabilize law as they know it. There's no one in Batman '89 that Batman can call up to do a drone strike. It wouldn't take much to push the city into Old West territory.

And for what it's worth, the (non-judicial) authorities in Gotham City do agree that Batman was justified under the circumstances, since they effectively deputize him after-the-fact.
 
On the matter of "Why not just tip off the authorities", bear in mind what we saw of the Gotham PD in the movie. I'm fairly certain that the police trying to raid Axis Chemicals after the Joker had taken over would have just resulted in everybody in the raiding force dying of poisoning. They didn't exactly strike me as abundantly competent or well-equipped.

"So why not bring in the feds?" That treads far enough into territory where the whole story stops making sense, in a manner contrary to the clearly intended stylization of the film. Or, if the feds were willing/able to intervene, they'd have already been involved in the movie. Gotham City is a bubble.
 
On the matter of "Why not just tip off the authorities", bear in mind what we saw of the Gotham PD in the movie. I'm fairly certain that the police trying to raid Axis Chemicals after the Joker had taken over would have just resulted in everybody in the raiding force dying of poisoning. They didn't exactly strike me as abundantly competent or well-equipped.

Gordon at the end of the movie: "Our Police have rounded up all the Joker's men".

The Cops were only written as incompetent when the script needed them to be. E.g. they can respond to a tip off from Grissom to go to Axis Chemicals to get Jack Napier, but they can't be waiting for the Joker at the parade after he announced on TV hours earlier that he would dump money on the crowd at midnight. Even Inspector Clouseau wouldn't be that dumb.

Bad script writing.
 
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To be fair, there might not be many of The Joker's men left at the end. Batman might have killed all of the best ones.
 
The Cops were only written as incompetent when the script needed them to be. E.g. they can respond to a tip off from Grissom to go to Axis Chemicals to get Jack Napier, but they can't be waiting for the Joker at the parade after he announced on TV hours earlier that he would dump money on the crowd at midnight. Even Inspector Clouseau wouldn't be that dumb.
Somebody make "an incompetent police/military might" thread asap.
 
I'd say Keaton left the biggest body count.
 
Bale's Batman took out a whole city with radiation poisoning.
 
Huh. I haven't seen it too recently, and that must have somehow slipped my mind.

As for the legality, maybe it would be against the law in real life, although I would say that's a failing of the law then. Yes, vigilantism is considered unacceptable in general, and for good reason, but I feel like that goes out the window in a scenario where the proper authorities simply aren't capable of handling a serious threat that the vigilante is, especially when that threat could destabilize law as they know it. There's no one in Batman '89 that Batman can call up to do a drone strike. It wouldn't take much to push the city into Old West territory.

And for what it's worth, the (non-judicial) authorities in Gotham City do agree that Batman was justified under the circumstances, since they effectively deputize him after-the-fact.

Yeah, I re-watched Batman '89 a couple of times last year - so I remember that bit. To be honest, ultimately it makes no difference in the movie - and in terms of self-defence if the Batmobile is totally bulletproof it doesn't matter if he's in there or not. So, I'm nitpicking, apologies.


What makes discussions around Batman and the law so interesting is that everyone has a slightly different idea about when Batman's actions become justified - when Batman kills that discussion gets even more interesting.

At what stage is it okay for Batman to kill ? Is it ever okay ? There will never be a definitive answer for these, but it's still heaps of fun to talk about.

Personally, I find the legal questions about Batman great fun - I mean there are legal theories that suggest that when legitimate authorities pass laws that are incredibly unjust that those authorities themselves lose legitimacy ( "The Dent Act" anyone ? A law based on a lie, kind of like an invasion based on a search for weapons which may have not existed.

I don't think any other superhero interacts with the law to the same degree that Batman does ( yes, Matt Murdock is a lawyer - but Batman interacts directly with the police, both in terms of fighting corrupt cops, and cooperating/assisting the good ones ). Nolan dances around these questions in TDK and TDKR, but doesn't ignore them altogether, which is cool.
Batman really makes us think about authority, particularly so-called "legal authority" - Frank Miller really pushed this in Dark Knight Returns, and did a brilliant job IMO. He even touched on perspectives on vigilantes (and he was writing in the wake of Bernhard Goetz, the so-called subway vigilante, and people in America asking questions about the legitimacy of vigilantism - a jury found Goetz not guilty of all but a minor charge, but of course he was sued for around $ 40 million ( apparently none of which he's paid so far ).

So, because Gotham city's cops can't handle the Joker, is it okay for them to sit on their hands while Batman "takes out the trash" so to speak ? - is it okay if he just beats up and helps imprison the trash ? Or, is still okay if he actually kills them (as he does in the film) ?

Retrospective justification ? Batman was deputized after the crisis ended. Sure, in the context of a comic book movie, why not? But in the real world that sounds awful fishy - I mean imagine a police chief publicly stating that due to a crisis, that his own department couldn't deal with, a vigilante was authorized (after the fact) to use lethal force. Interesting isn't it.

As I said, if Batman were put on trial, he'd argue self-defence/defence of another - but saying that his actions were okay, because he was allowed to use lethal force, due to a retrospective deputization is a different kind of justification ( like saying that Gotham was in a state of war, with the Joker, and Batman was acting as a kind of one-man-militia). Totally works within the movie of course.

Hey, here's a short opinion piece which deals with Batman and vigilante justice:

http://opinion.inquirer.net/97683/batman-and-vigilante-justice



Don't get me wrong, I love Batman '89, but I also love to sit back and chuckle a little bit about the likely legal implications of Batman's actions - and that doesn't reduce my enjoyment of the films at all.


But back to the main point, do we have a consensus yet ?
I feel like Batfleck easily has the most kills in a single film, and he and Keaton are close for most kills overall, with Bale in the middle and Kilmer and Clooney at the bottom.

Cheers.
 
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Ben Affleck's "I use a tracer to destroy the truck carrying it while I chase it and kill mercenaries in it. BYE TRACER"

Or

Michael Keaton's "I'm not going to kill you, I want you to tell all your friends about how I will blow the Axis Chemical factory full of people with an explosion by a tiny bomb."



You can count both of Keaton's movies.

Didnt every live action Batman kill except Clooney? The most memorable one for me was Val taking 2 Face out.
 
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Keaton - 20
Kilmer - 9
Bale - 15
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Affleck - 21

Bale and Keaton are that high? That's surprising, then again Batfleck had one movie and killed that many; but whatever he was still awesome.
 

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